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Old 06-08-2018, 09:38 AM   #51
bowhntrmatt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elliscountyhog View Post
Hmm I agree with most of this extcept the Trane comment. I sell all major brands and get good pricing from them all too. Now if you are talking basic models then yes all the same. But when talking higher seer and modulating/variable speed units Trane has the one of the best if not the best units. Lennox is close and the rest are not even considered. Heck Goodman doesn’t even offer one. They use a 3rd party line in Franklin. So if you want lower end builders grade then yes Goodman is spitting them out but that’s not our market. Dakien is making a come back for sure but still not near the proven years as Trane. I have not had a single unit come out from the warehouse with a “defect”. Plastic weather guard tops reduce vibration of the fan motor so it’s quieter. Just a heckuva a statement saying they are the worse in the market but yet they have been our go to brand for 15yrs and I would sell something else before I delt with defects and plastic crappy units and that’s not the case here.
I should have mentioned that I would favor daikin and amana over Goodman due to how flimsy Goodman cabinet strength is.

How many new trane air handlers do you see with the door seams taped up because the positive-pressure air handler blows air out of every seam and the doors won’t stay tight enough to keep it in?

And daikin was the first to use the variable speed compressor over 30 years ago. I would hardly say they are catching up.
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:15 AM   #52
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For you folks that install Trane units, have y'all had trouble with leaking coils?

As I mentioned above, I'm on my 5th. coil in 9 years. One only lasted two months.

The company that installed mine quit recommending or selling Trane about 3 years ago. The technicians told me they had many units with coil leaks and got tired of dealing with unhappy customers. They now sell Daikin.
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Old 06-08-2018, 02:55 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by bowhntrmatt View Post
I should have mentioned that I would favor daikin and amana over Goodman due to how flimsy Goodman cabinet strength is.

How many new trane air handlers do you see with the door seams taped up because the positive-pressure air handler blows air out of every seam and the doors won’t stay tight enough to keep it in?

And daikin was the first to use the variable speed compressor over 30 years ago. I would hardly say they are catching up.
Agreed! They are "catching up" by trying to expand and bring equipment that is "new" to the stagnant US market maybe?
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Old 06-08-2018, 03:27 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by tigerscowboy View Post
Going with Mercedes in the debate makes an easy story to shoot holes in. Everyone knows they are as expensive to own as a Jaguar or BMW.

Suggest a debate comparison like that of a Ford/Chevy/Dodge to Toyota/Honda. There lies a true argument similar to that of Trane/Daikin vs Rheem/York/Goodman/Am Std, ect
Not really sure why you threw AmStd and Trane on different sides of that argument.

American Standard is what I would buy if I was putting a new system in. Trane/American Standard are all made in the same plants and are owned by Ingersol Rand. American Standard's distributors have the BEST customer service and support in the industry.

And, to the person with 5 leaking coils in 9 years...something else is going on. That shouldn't be happening.
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Old 06-08-2018, 04:02 PM   #55
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We had Trane and it ran good until it didn't. Replaced a coil last year and the second system ran into the same issues 3 weeks before our buyers closed on our house. Set me back $1,100 because when we called in the serial numbers for the units being new homeowners we didn't know that you have to give them the serial numbers for BOTH units otherwise only one is covered for 10 years and the other is only covered for 5 years! This is important to know and from what I was also told, Trane is aware that this happens often, and they bank on it so that they only have to warranty about half of their failed coils. Don't get me wrong I like Trane but I think their little business model is total BS.
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Old 06-08-2018, 07:09 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by SFAbowhunter View Post
Not really sure why you threw AmStd and Trane on different sides of that argument.

American Standard is what I would buy if I was putting a new system in. Trane/American Standard are all made in the same plants and are owned by Ingersol Rand. American Standard's distributors have the BEST customer service and support in the industry.

And, to the person with 5 leaking coils in 9 years...something else is going on. That shouldn't be happening.
I agree. It shouldn't be happening. The technicians told me that the coils are made so thin that it only takes a little bit of corrosion for them to start leaking. Trane told me it could be caused by the environment.
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Old 06-09-2018, 10:19 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by SFAbowhunter View Post
Not really sure why you threw AmStd and Trane on different sides of that argument.

American Standard is what I would buy if I was putting a new system in. Trane/American Standard are all made in the same plants and are owned by Ingersol Rand. American Standard's distributors have the BEST customer service and support in the industry.

And, to the person with 5 leaking coils in 9 years...something else is going on. That shouldn't be happening.
On different sides because it was correlating debates such as when people want to compare items such as Toyota and Lexus, Nissan and Infinity, GM and Cadillac.

I've been to numerous manufacturing plants as well and witnessed different brands coming off the same lines built by the same workers with identical or similar components.
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:31 PM   #58
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So nobody said what brand NOT to get....well, that'd be Frigidaire. This piece of junk has been worked on at least every other year since it was about 3 years old. It is now almost 10 years since we built our house, and I'm reading this thread to decide what new AC to get.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:15 PM   #59
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Trane, too many coil leaks. I wouldn't go with trane for residential. For small chillers, trane or carrier, large chillers, trane.


The big problem with coils is, efficiency and economy. Coils are made with thin copper for efficiency, and copper sells by weight, so we get paper thin coils, which have very little resistance to formicary corrosion. Thicker copper seems to be immune, or it just takes 20 yrs to eat through. So some of the 9 coil issue above could very well be environmental. A few years ago, every manufacturer had coil problems. Some have went to total aluminum to combat this.


I like lennox and lennox spin off products, mostly Air Ease splits, and Allied rooftop units. But what do I know, only been doing this for 44 years.
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:04 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by double bogey View Post
Trane, too many coil leaks. I wouldn't go with trane for residential. For small chillers, trane or carrier, large chillers, trane.


The big problem with coils is, efficiency and economy. Coils are made with thin copper for efficiency, and copper sells by weight, so we get paper thin coils, which have very little resistance to formicary corrosion. Thicker copper seems to be immune, or it just takes 20 yrs to eat through. So some of the 9 coil issue above could very well be environmental. A few years ago, every manufacturer had coil problems. Some have went to total aluminum to combat this.


I like lennox and lennox spin off products, mostly Air Ease splits, and Allied rooftop units. But what do I know, only been doing this for 44 years.
I have a High end RUUD system that I installed in 2012 that both the coils have gone out in. It was originally Copper / Aluminum coils and the replacement coils have been all Aluminum coils (which I hope hold up) both were under warranty however you have to pay for install and Freon ($900 for first one, $1400 for second one). Aside from this coil issue they have worked very well. My issues is that I mean come on, how long has these companies been making coils, by now these things should not fail, if it cost a lot to make one thick enough and well built enough to hold up for 20 years then so be it, charge me for that coil. Every metallurgist know dissimilar metals sets up corrosion so in my RUUD unit there should never have been a copper and aluminum(fins) coils.

One thing I do know is the outside condenser on these high end units must be kept clean. You need a low pressure power washer and clean them out. Last week my service guy replaced the coil and then cleaned my condensers very good. I hope this is the end of my issue with this RUUD system.

My service guys has been a friend for years so he shoots straight with me.

RD

Last edited by ranchdog; 06-19-2018 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:06 PM   #61
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The corrosion problem is formicary corrosion.

https://www.corrosionpedia.com/defin...cary-corrosion

Aluminum may be the answer, time will tell

Last edited by double bogey; 06-19-2018 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:14 PM   #62
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Some mfgs are using all aluminum micro channel coils. Don't let them get so dirty a spray nozzle on a hose won't work.
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Old 06-19-2018, 09:46 PM   #63
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The lighter weight coils has a lot to do with pleasing our governments higher efficiency requirements regulated to the manufacturers
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:02 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by double bogey View Post
The corrosion problem is formicary corrosion.

https://www.corrosionpedia.com/defin...cary-corrosion

Aluminum may be the answer, time will tell
Good information.

"Formicary" corrosion is the term the techs used when they replaced my coil recently. This time they put in a Sustainable Coil made in Lindale, TX. It came with a 5 year guarantee instead of Trane's 1 year.

double bogey. Just wondering if you think these coils will last. From their website.

"All RCTWE replacement coils utilize UNIGUARD® by Luvata copper alloy tubing for proven protection against formicary corrosion, the leading cause of coil leaks in copper tube applications. As an added feature, we also utilize aluminum end plates to further reduce rust corrosion."

http://www.sustainablecoils.com/tran...ent-coils.html
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:13 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Froggy View Post
Good information.

"Formicary" corrosion is the term the techs used when they replaced my coil recently. This time they put in a Sustainable Coil made in Lindale, TX. It came with a 5 year guarantee instead of Trane's 1 year.

double bogey. Just wondering if you think these coils will last. From their website.

"All RCTWE replacement coils utilize UNIGUARD® by Luvata copper alloy tubing for proven protection against formicary corrosion, the leading cause of coil leaks in copper tube applications. As an added feature, we also utilize aluminum end plates to further reduce rust corrosion."

http://www.sustainablecoils.com/tran...ent-coils.html
Those guys make great direct-replacement coils. We use them all the time. Usually at a better price point than factory replacements to if the factory warranty has run out.
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:52 PM   #66
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Different copper alloy, time will tell. There are coatings some mfgs are using on commercial equipment.
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Old 06-20-2018, 07:31 AM   #67
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The trane I had only made it about 10 years and the coils were toast. It was cheaper to replace the unit since I new it wasn't going to make another 10 years. I had to replace a motor on year 7 also. I went with Rheem this time around without all the bells and whistles.
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Old 06-20-2018, 07:32 AM   #68
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"knew"
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:01 AM   #69
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Andrew, get chance at modern air solutions to get you a quote. Tell him I told you.


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Old 06-20-2018, 08:02 AM   #70
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My TRANE 3 1/2 is 30y old this year......only maint 2 inside house blower motors....2
caps outside...Prayers please
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:51 AM   #71
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I replaced a rheem from 1978 a couple of weeks back. the condenser coil was leaking on the bottom row, all the way around where it rubbed on the bottom of the unit. Evaporator coil was not leaking. At one time rheem was pretty good equipment. Customer loves his new 2 stage 16 seer system.
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Old 06-23-2018, 01:19 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by double bogey View Post
Some mfgs are using all aluminum micro channel coils. Don't let them get so dirty a spray nozzle on a hose won't work.
Absolutely a great habit. I finally developed the habit of rinsing the coils every time I changed the media filters, 2 times/year. That's when I got 16 years out of 2 undersized production grade RHEEM units.
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Old 07-16-2021, 06:51 AM   #73
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I used to sell Carrier and Payne. The difference between the two was price and the color of the sticker on many of the units. If they couldn't afford the Carrier we could offer them the "cheaper" Payne unit. Most were identical.
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Old 07-16-2021, 06:56 AM   #74
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I've been in the AC installation business for over 27 years and I went with a Daiken on my new house. Just like most of the guys on here are saying, any brand of unit is only as good as the installation.
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Old 07-16-2021, 07:03 AM   #75
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My TRANE 3 1/2 is 30y old this year......only maint 2 inside house blower motors....2
caps outside...Prayers please
Still hummin..prayers please
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Old 07-16-2021, 07:45 AM   #76
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Anymore the ac units are migrating to high tech electronic motor drives. Don’t know if this is some government mandated energy efficiency plan. Last year i had the fan motor on my Carrier air handler go out. I have a ten year parts warranty so i only paid for labor. Had the fan motor not been covered by warranty it would have cost $1000 just for the motor. So IMO simple is better.
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Old 07-16-2021, 08:28 AM   #77
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I realize this is an older thread. My builder went with Trane in our new house. Hope it performs better than some of these posts.
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Old 07-16-2021, 08:33 AM   #78
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I put brand new rheems 17 seer 2 stage in the home I bought last year. Been excellent so far. Help cut my electric bill too.
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Old 07-16-2021, 09:10 AM   #79
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Ok, so it seems there are a lot more A/C experts on here than I knew. The wife and I just moved this past October, and during the purchase of the new home, 1 of the a/c units went out. The owner replaced it with a brand I have never heard of, EVCON. I assume it to be the cheapest thing he could get since the close was less than 2 weeks away, but I have no other basis for this claim. Can ya'll give me the quick rundown on EVCON? TIA!
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Old 07-16-2021, 09:34 AM   #80
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Had a 2 tranes when I built my house and they were great for 15 years, one is actually still going strong. Replaced one with a Lennox because that’s what the local dealer has and that was a mistake. Whenever the compressor kicks on it you can hear a loud bang, told them about it and they could never fix.
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Old 07-16-2021, 09:43 AM   #81
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Goodman was bought out by Daikin about 10 years ago. It was a cheaper below average system prior to being bought out. Daikin has improved it since the buyout though. If money were an issue I would feel good about considering a Goodman. I remodeled our house in 2013 and put in a 3 ton Lennox 2 stage/16.5 seer that would freeze us out and electricity bills was great. We built new in 2017 and went with a 5 ton Trane. Nothing runs like a Trane is correct.

I looked on line at reviews back in 2013 and found that all brands have problems and complaints. I wouldn`t waste your money upgrading to a higher seer and stick with a single stage compressor. Repairs will cost you lots less for those units and it takes to long to get your money back by upgrading the SEER rating.
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Old 07-16-2021, 10:19 AM   #82
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No issues with my Goodman unit.
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Old 07-16-2021, 10:30 AM   #83
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Daikin…

Been in a few months.

Electric bill is cheaper and with variable speed house stays awesome.

2700 sq ft.

Warranty is the best
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Old 07-16-2021, 02:23 PM   #84
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American standard.


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Old 07-16-2021, 08:30 PM   #85
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My question is what is so important about the installation? These things come pretty much put together. Make sure its level and will drain, solder up copper, vaccume and charge. Other than design of ducts/return ensuring all seams are sealed properly what is so important?
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Old 07-16-2021, 08:49 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by tigerscowboy View Post
Trane or Daikin. Trane needs to fix their valve issues on the high end product.

https://daikincomfort.com/products/h...r-conditioners
I replaced one of our units with a Daikin a couple of years ago and have been pleased.
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Old 07-16-2021, 10:00 PM   #87
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None of the manufacturers are what they used to be. The younger kids working the lines these days don't give two craps about quality. The components are all outsourced from Asia. That being said I have been an American Standard dealer for 12 years until something better comes along. Daikin bought Goodman but their residential split units are still Goodman with a Daikin or Amana badge. Nothing Daikin about them! Daikin still makes mini splits and Mc Quay makes the RTU's Get behind a good company that stands behind the product they install. If they use day laborers for installations stay away!
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Old 07-16-2021, 11:01 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by MLAH View Post
Interesting information:

First things first, however. While there are many brands of central air conditioners, digging deeper reveals that the majority of central air conditioners are made by a handful of companies, marketing merely makes it looks as if you have a wider range of choices. The major manufacturers are:
Trane, which also makes American Standard
United Technology, which owns Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Day & Night, Heil and Tempstar
Lennox, which owns Ducane, Armstrong, Concord, Allied and AirEase
Rheem, which owns Ruud
Goodman, which makes Amana and Janitrol
York, which makes Coleman and Luxaire
Nortek Global HVAC, which makes Maytag, Westinghouse, Frigidaire, Kelvinator and others

Group 1 – Our Top Picks for the Top 10 Air Conditioner Brands of 2018:
Goodman
Day & Night
Mitsubishi
Bryant
Carrier
York
Amana
Trane
Rheem
Lennox
Been in the buisness over 35 years. No way in hell that Goodman is top of the list. The only way i installed a Goodman is if customer wants a cheaper unit. Last couple of years their pricing has gone way up so I dont even offer them. For the same or a little more I put them in a better unit.
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Old 07-17-2021, 07:19 AM   #89
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Trane and only Trane.
Yup, or American Standard.
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Old 07-17-2021, 07:26 AM   #90
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I bought a Trane unit when I went to work for American Standard in 2003 (parent company of Trane at that time). It is still going strong.

Trane kept the American Standard name for residential when Trane spun off in 2007 and a few months later Ingersoll Rand acquired us. No longer with Trane but I understand they were spun off again. Should make for a stronger company that can focus on it's core business, IMO.
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Old 07-17-2021, 07:35 AM   #91
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All of their units are made here in Texas, too.
Last I checked Trane and American Standard were still coming out of the Tyler plant. That may have changed.
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Old 07-17-2021, 09:19 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by DedDuk View Post
My question is what is so important about the installation? These things come pretty much put together. Make sure its level and will drain, solder up copper, vaccume and charge. Other than design of ducts/return ensuring all seams are sealed properly what is so important?
Two companies install the exact same unit.

Company A uses highly trained, experienced installers. Everything is neat and clean. They cover your floors and sweep your garage when they are done. They install to or above mfr specs. Their install includes accessories like drain monitors, smart thermostat, advanced filtration, UV light for the coil, surge protection. They replace the breakers, disconnect boxes, and even the platform the unit sits on. They include an ironclad 10 year protection plan that includes annual service.


Company B offers a price thousands cheaper on the same unit. Their installer has “done ac” for years (1.5). Their install is more of a box swap, and includes no accessories that didnt come in the box with the unit. They were in a hurry to get to their second job of the day (when you slap them in cheap, it takes more to make a living) so they only got the vacuum to 1500 microns instead of 500, but that’s good enough. Doing this they leave a tiny leak that nobody knows about. When this issue surfaces 10 months later, the company is nowhere to be found and they didnt register the equipment so you are on your own for not only this repair, but all future repairs.

But hey, it was a Trane so it must be good.
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Old 07-17-2021, 09:58 AM   #93
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We have replaced 2 of 3 systems with goodman in the past five years. All running strong and 10 year warranty.

These are basic single speed systems. I have not researched how they compare for zoned and variable speed setups....
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Old 07-18-2021, 04:59 PM   #94
Buckshot4900
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Originally Posted by TeamAmerica View Post
We have replaced 2 of 3 systems with goodman in the past five years. All running strong and 10 year warranty.

These are basic single speed systems. I have not researched how they compare for zoned and variable speed setups....

I’m having a 16 seer 2-stage Goodman installed next week. They have always been considered the “cheapy” brand, but, they have really stepped up to the plate on quality and warranty in the past few years.
Much of the performance depends on how your ductwork is designed and installed.


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Old 07-18-2021, 06:03 PM   #95
Smart
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Daikin…

Been in a few months.

Electric bill is cheaper and with variable speed house stays awesome.

2700 sq ft.

Warranty is the best



We rolled the Daikan way too this past spring and it has done well. Our guy listened to us about warm areas in the house, rerouted/enlarged some duct work and it has been great. Cold everywhere in the house now and shuts off all day long... we've had some 98 and 99s (feels like 102-103) so it will be interesting to see how it performs when we get those 103-105 deg days. Its already out-performing our old Trane unit that wouldn't have shut down on those 98-99 deg days until the evening..
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Old 07-18-2021, 07:19 PM   #96
cwt1026
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This is interesting install is everything they will all blow cold air most are are using Copland compressors and Trane has all aluminum foil. Daikin commercial units are built in Waller not sure where Mcquay thought came from. I think the flimsly came from Janitrol days, most of the manufactures build a builder unit Goodman is not that. Really what it depends on how long you plan to live there,age just to list a few is what I would say to how high a seer unit. They all have issues and I don't think most go as long as they use to, because they all try and save money. After a period of time updating saves money, I have been in this industry for over 35 years also
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Old 07-20-2021, 09:39 AM   #97
tigerscowboy
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Over 27 years experience with residential flood repairs, remodeling, and new construction (mass production and custom). All at the same time. 27 professional years of each. $200k-1.5mil price points.

#1 How long are you going to keep the house?

#2 What is your lifestyle? 78, 76, 72 degrees or even cooler? Days and nights.

#3 As others have stated, the installer is equally or more important as the brand & model. I've built some very tight houses at $200k with base level components.

Consider that nearly all houses are concrete, lumber, and masonry; What makes one better constructed than the other? Good Supervision.
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Old 07-29-2021, 04:51 AM   #98
Chief Big Toe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smart View Post
We rolled the Daikan way too this past spring and it has done well. Our guy listened to us about warm areas in the house, rerouted/enlarged some duct work and it has been great. Cold everywhere in the house now and shuts off all day long... we've had some 98 and 99s (feels like 102-103) so it will be interesting to see how it performs when we get those 103-105 deg days. Its already out-performing our old Trane unit that wouldn't have shut down on those 98-99 deg days until the evening..
Knock on wood, I won't need this anytime soon. but
can you PM info on your 'GUY" ? i have a lot of Hot spot's in the house, need someone to to truly look and redesign the duct work

David G
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Old 07-29-2021, 05:59 AM   #99
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So, it sounds like six of one half dozen of the other. I guess different units pull different amounts of amperage regarding size requirements? If so then you’d probably wanna be sure your not paying for more than you need.
Do they make propane ac,s and if so how do those stack up against electric? Just curious.
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Old 07-29-2021, 08:00 AM   #100
savin yours
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Default Which Brand of Air Conditioner?

Had an ac guy come by yesterday for a replacement quote. They sell Armstrong, he says it’s the “caddy of Lennox”?


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Last edited by savin yours; 07-29-2021 at 08:17 AM.
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