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Old 09-22-2021, 09:06 AM   #1
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Default New proposed pistol brace rules

Ofcourse I just picked up a 300blk pistol to carry while hunting for pigs and seems they are trying to call it an SBR now.

The ATF is really annoying just changing rules back and forth. We are felons now, then we arnt. Really hard to know if we should all be in prison or not, especially when no one votes on it. New laws seem to just happen with them.

Hope this doesn’t go through as arrows are expensive on pigs. The pistol suppressed would save some money and time on those pigs and fit in my backpack.
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Old 09-22-2021, 09:12 AM   #2
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It’s all a crock of poop! Sbrs and sbs should not require any special permission to own!
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Old 09-22-2021, 09:36 AM   #3
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As far as I'm concerned there shouldn't be any restrictions on weapons whatsoever if you have the cash to pay for it. Evil will do what evil does. Good will do what good does. Regardless of what they own. And evil will find a way if it doesn't. I don't own a pistol with a brace or an SBR or even a suppressor. But I think the laws pertaining to such things are stupid.

It's just my opinion but as far as I'm concerned I should be able to go buy any one of those things at the store right now if I was inclined to do so. Because the last I checked this was America. Even if it's hard to tell sometimes.

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Old 09-22-2021, 09:59 AM   #4
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Just like silencers. There's no such animal as a silencer. Even the best so-called silencers are not capable of suppressing noise below 120db at the shooters ear even when subsonic. Bolt cycling noise alone is right at 100-110db on an AR.
.22 rimfire might get down to 35db subsonic suppressed but can still be clearly heard from 50 yards away. Supersonic suppressed are mostly up near 140db for the average can. Some are louder. They need to be below 130 to keep from causing hearing loss problems. It's all about control and taxes or vice versa.
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Old 09-22-2021, 10:07 AM   #5
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To be honest I think if anyone should be de-funded it's the ATF. What do they do besides sit around and dream up dumbass laws that the police have to enforce and put their lives on the line for? And for what? There's no point in it.
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Old 09-22-2021, 10:19 AM   #6
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My biggest thing is they just put it into law. Who voted on this and where is my representation? The ATF just does what they ATF does. And they flip flop( brace on shoulder not ok…. Now it’s ok….. maybe it’s ok but we may arrest you if we feel)
Now accessories define an SBR not the actual firearm.


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To be honest I think if anyone should be de-funded it's the ATF. What do they do besides sit around and dream up dumbass laws that the police have to enforce and put their lives on the line for? And for what? There's no point in it.
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Old 09-22-2021, 10:37 AM   #7
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My biggest thing is they just put it into law. Who voted on this and where is my representation? The ATF just does what they ATF does. And they flip flop( brace on shoulder not ok…. Now it’s ok….. maybe it’s ok but we may arrest you if we feel)
Now accessories define an SBR not the actual firearm.
Exactly, so I think there needs to be a law in place that once something is mass produced and was bought legally it's fair game to own. Shouldn't be any of this back and forth stuff.

I know, I know....proposing another law. But this would actually be to protect the people of the United States. Which is the exact opposite of the laws set in place by the ATF. Those do absolutely nothing.

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Old 09-22-2021, 10:41 AM   #8
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They are basically making this rule with no idea how to enforce it or make it so we as the people with it can follow it. Basically leaves it open to them to decide. Even if you follow the law they still have final say whenever they want to arrest you even if you follow the guidelines. Isn’t that just fun.



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Exactly, so I think there needs to be a law in place that once something is mass produced and was bought legally it's fair game to own. Shouldn't be any of this back and forth stuff.
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Old 09-22-2021, 01:33 PM   #9
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As far as I'm concerned there shouldn't be any restrictions on weapons whatsoever if you have the cash to pay for it. Evil will do what evil does. Good will do what good does. Regardless of what they own. And evil will find a way if it doesn't. I don't own a pistol with a brace or an SBR or even a suppressor. But I think the laws pertaining to such things are stupid.

It's just my opinion but as far as I'm concerned I should be able to go buy any one of those things at the store right now if I was inclined to do so. Because the last I checked this was America. Even if it's hard to tell sometimes.
This
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Old 09-22-2021, 05:52 PM   #10
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So what they have done is try and make a few hundred thousand people guilty of a felony? No way that will stand up in the courts. It will however cost somebody a lot of $$$ to have to fight the charges. I'll bet Beto and Biden are loving this.
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Old 09-22-2021, 06:21 PM   #11
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They are basically making this rule with no idea how to enforce it or make it so we as the people with it can follow it. Basically leaves it open to them to decide. Even if you follow the law they still have final say whenever they want to arrest you even if you follow the guidelines. Isn’t that just fun.
So what do they expect a person to do if they bought it legally? There's no way that people are going to turn theirs in. There's no proof of who bought what if they didn't have to get approved to buy a pistol brace. That'd be like outlawing Pepsi or somethin. Who all has Pepsi in their home? Well.....a lot of people. If you catch them drinking one in public they'd be in trouble but aside from that how will you know who's a Pepsi drinker? It makes no sense to criminalize people after you've sold hundreds of thousands of these things. Kinda makes it hard to get them all back I would think. But what do I know?

People are still going to own them. They probably just ain't gonna take those guns out to the public range.
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Old 09-22-2021, 07:39 PM   #12
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Default New proposed pistol brace rules

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My biggest thing is they just put it into law. Who voted on this and where is my representation? The ATF just does what they ATF does. And they flip flop( brace on shoulder not ok…. Now it’s ok….. maybe it’s ok but we may arrest you if we feel)
Now accessories define an SBR not the actual firearm.

Where did you see it’s been put in force. The ATF is not a lawmaking branch of the government.


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Old 09-22-2021, 09:08 PM   #13
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It hasnt been put in force yet, but it would be a change to the interpretation of the original law. I think its how they skirt getting it passed by congress. Basically they will try to say we interpret it this way and you are now breaking the law.

But like others have said no way now that the cat is out of the bag and they flip flopped so many times can they go back on it now.


I wish all the anti gun people understood just how hard it is to try and be a law abiding gun owner since our rules change all the time.


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Where did you see it’s been put in force. The ATF is not a lawmaking branch of the government.


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Old 09-22-2021, 11:09 PM   #14
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Where did you see it’s been put in force. The ATF is not a lawmaking branch of the government.


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I have no clue if it applies to the situation but I do know that both state law and federal law have laws on the books (and I have seen Supreme Court decisions on this) that say a particular agency has the authority to not make laws, but to interpret or change rules. I think maybe Texas Parks and Wildlife has that authority in some situations as an example. While a legislature can certainly make fish bag limits, license fees and such, they normally do not do so and turn that over to someone else. It is legal because there is a law in the books that tells them they have the authority to do it.

Again, I have no clue if it applies here but all rules and interpretations do not have to be passed by Congress whether state or federal.
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Old 09-23-2021, 04:45 AM   #15
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It doesn't apply if you are a Taliban... then they will give you a Blackhawk!!!!
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Old 09-23-2021, 05:43 AM   #16
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I saw the 4 tiered grading approach where I think a firearm can’t have more than 8 points. Seemed unnecessarily restrictive, but it was at least a basis. I don’t know if that was just proposed or if that is what they are going on now.


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Old 09-23-2021, 07:26 AM   #17
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This is correct except it’s 4 points. Here is how fun it is. If you have a gun with backup sites OR NO SIRES AT ALL that’s 1 point already.

Every stipulation is also very subjective

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I saw the 4 tiered grading approach where I think a firearm can’t have more than 8 points. Seemed unnecessarily restrictive, but it was at least a basis. I don’t know if that was just proposed or if that is what they are going on now.


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Old 09-23-2021, 07:30 AM   #18
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Here is an example one is legal pistol one is an SBR. Top is legal bottom go to jail.




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Old 09-25-2021, 08:33 PM   #19
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The ATF dealing with private citizens at all is complete BS. It no different than OSHA showing up at your house when you’re using a drill without safety glasses, gloves, and steel toed boots.

They should only deal with FFL holders and manufacturers (to check that they are following the laws correctly, not to harass them), and to fight organized crime.

Enforcement of laws to private citizens should be under the jurisdiction of local LEO’s, and most of them won’t mess with this crap.
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Old 09-25-2021, 09:41 PM   #20
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The ATF dealing with private citizens at all is complete BS. It no different than OSHA showing up at your house when you’re using a drill without safety glasses, gloves, and steel toed boots.

They should only deal with FFL holders and manufacturers (to check that they are following the laws correctly, not to harass them), and to fight organized crime.

Enforcement of laws to private citizens should be under the jurisdiction of local LEO’s, and most of them won’t mess with this crap.
Word
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Old 09-25-2021, 09:52 PM   #21
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Here is an example one is legal pistol one is an SBR. Top is legal bottom go to jail.




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Tbh, I really can’t tell the difference between the 2. Seems like splitting hairs to me.

And let’s all be honest here, screw the ATF. Who’s going to enforce this? We all deal with the Game Warden or local Sheriffs, personally I don’t think they are going to care, much less break out the tape measure. I’d like to know how many private citizens have had run ins with the ATF.

A “law” is only as good as the enforcement. Especially if it’s a federal agency who changes their opinion like their underwear. They can **** off.


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Old 09-26-2021, 06:51 AM   #22
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Tbh, I really can’t tell the difference between the 2. Seems like splitting hairs to me.

And let’s all be honest here, screw the ATF. Who’s going to enforce this? We all deal with the Game Warden or local Sheriffs, personally I don’t think they are going to care, much less break out the tape measure. I’d like to know how many private citizens have had run ins with the ATF.

A “law” is only as good as the enforcement. Especially if it’s a federal agency who changes their opinion like their underwear. They can **** off.


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That’s true, but it’s a real issue when nobody really knows how to get a straight answer as to if it’s legal or not.

The majority of LEO’s seem to support the 2nd amendment but aren’t really “gun guys” that keep up with stuff like this. If it seems suspect, they are likely to call a supervisor or someone to get an answer. None of them want to be on the hook for having stopped you with an illegal AR pistol, letting you go, and you shoot up the HEB next week.

A buddy had this happen with an unserialized firearm built from a kit. In Texas, you’re required to notify them when stopped if you have a handgun in the vehicle as well. For the “well then don’t break the law” crowd, I was pulled over “accidentally” on the interstate a couple months back.

Guy came up to my window and said “Sorry, I ran your tag wrong and it showed a warrant. You didn’t do anything wrong. I just need to run your ID and you’re free to go.”

If they choose to prosecute it as a felony it’s a different game than the punishment being having to pay the $200 tax stamp.
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Old 09-26-2021, 06:58 AM   #23
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So what do they expect a person to do if they bought it legally? There's no way that people are going to turn theirs in. There's no proof of who bought what if they didn't have to get approved to buy a pistol brace. That'd be like outlawing Pepsi or somethin. Who all has Pepsi in their home? Well.....a lot of people. If you catch them drinking one in public they'd be in trouble but aside from that how will you know who's a Pepsi drinker? It makes no sense to criminalize people after you've sold hundreds of thousands of these things. Kinda makes it hard to get them all back I would think. But what do I know?

People are still going to own them. They probably just ain't gonna take those guns out to the public range.
Completely true, you can keep whatever you want in your safe with little chance of problems. However, if you live in town and are worried about driving it to the ranch to hog hunt with, take a carbine class with it, or let your kids shoot it at the range, do you still really “have it?”

That’s the major issue with people not fighting to stop these laws, they just talk about sticking them in their attic or burying them out in the yard as if that means they’ve “won.”

Also, with Biden trying to make the ATF his private gestapo, it’s highly likely that you could get a knock on your door if you’ve bought a pistol brace online right from a gun shop with a credit card.

They have already been doing this to people that have bought the lightening links, solvent traps, and polymer 80 kits, it’s not tinfoil speculation.
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Old 09-26-2021, 08:59 AM   #24
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This is correct except it’s 4 points. Here is how fun it is. If you have a gun with backup sites OR NO SIRES AT ALL that’s 1 point already.



Every stipulation is also very subjective
So a pistol (like glock 17 plain Jane pistol) with an optic and suppressor sights gets a point?

As for LE not knowing guns. In a unit of roughly 20 investigators, there are 2 guys who get called upon when it comes to guns. Me and one other guy. Most others know enough to get their duty weapon loaded and shot. Thats it. Some can barely do that

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Old 09-26-2021, 11:57 AM   #25
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That’s true, but it’s a real issue when nobody really knows how to get a straight answer as to if it’s legal or not.

The majority of LEO’s seem to support the 2nd amendment but aren’t really “gun guys” that keep up with stuff like this. If it seems suspect, they are likely to call a supervisor or someone to get an answer. None of them want to be on the hook for having stopped you with an illegal AR pistol, letting you go, and you shoot up the HEB next week.

A buddy had this happen with an unserialized firearm built from a kit. In Texas, you’re required to notify them when stopped if you have a handgun in the vehicle as well. For the “well then don’t break the law” crowd, I was pulled over “accidentally” on the interstate a couple months back.

Guy came up to my window and said “Sorry, I ran your tag wrong and it showed a warrant. You didn’t do anything wrong. I just need to run your ID and you’re free to go.”

If they choose to prosecute it as a felony it’s a different game than the punishment being having to pay the $200 tax stamp.

I’m not familiar with a duty to disclose that you have a handgun in the vehicle.

Can you reference a statute in the penal code for this?

I have never disclosed this and have never been asked.


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Old 09-26-2021, 11:58 AM   #26
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So a pistol (like glock 17 plain Jane pistol) with an optic and suppressor sights gets a point?

As for LE not knowing guns. In a unit of roughly 20 investigators, there are 2 guys who get called upon when it comes to guns. Me and one other guy. Most others know enough to get their duty weapon loaded and shot. Thats it. Some can barely do that

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I would assume if it doesn’t have a brace of some kind it wouldn’t apply.


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Old 09-26-2021, 12:06 PM   #27
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I’m not familiar with a duty to disclose that you have a handgun in the vehicle.

Can you reference a statute in the penal code for this?

I have never disclosed this and have never been asked.


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Section 411.205

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/D...11.htm#411.205

Technically it reads “on your person” not “in your vehicle”. When I lived in TX and was reading up on the CHL laws it looked like it was usually interpreted as if you had a handgun in the vehicle you were required to notify them.
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Old 09-26-2021, 05:45 PM   #28
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So a pistol (like glock 17 plain Jane pistol) with an optic and suppressor sights gets a point?

As for LE not knowing guns. In a unit of roughly 20 investigators, there are 2 guys who get called upon when it comes to guns. Me and one other guy. Most others know enough to get their duty weapon loaded and shot. Thats it. Some can barely do that

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No kidding. When we teach at the Police Academy, sometimes half of the cadets have never even fired a weapon of any type and never learn more than their duty weapon… maybe.

Before I retired, I was the gun guy on a couple of shifts.
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Old 09-26-2021, 06:22 PM   #29
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Section 411.205

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/D...11.htm#411.205

Technically it reads “on your person” not “in your vehicle”. When I lived in TX and was reading up on the CHL laws it looked like it was usually interpreted as if you had a handgun in the vehicle you were required to notify them.
The law says on or about your person. The phrase “or about your person” merely means in the area. If it is in your vehicle, it is about your person.

If the law required it to be on your person only, why would they even add the phrase “or about”?

In Christian v. State (Texas Court of Criminal Appeals which is the Supreme Court for Texas criminal law) it clearly states that inside the passenger compartment is “or about” your person. This is a quote from that caselaw, “this Court's recognition that "on or about [the] person" extends to cover at least the interior of an automobile, see Courtney v. State”. So you can see that or about your personal covers “at least” the interior of your vehicle. That means it probably leaves open areas that might not be in the interior of your vehicle. I can only guess but if you saw the police walking up and tossed your handgun outside the car, it might still be on or about your person but that might be for a different discussion.

In Courtney v. State which Christian cites, The gun was found on the floorboard and this was found to comply with the phrase “or about your person”.

Secondly, the section you cited is for a person with an LTC only. That is a duty to display your LTC and I believe they removed the penalty for failing to comply. In other words it is technically a law but there is nothing they can do if you do not comply.
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Old 09-27-2021, 11:26 AM   #30
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Honestly I’m not sure because the paperwork makes no sense. I think a Thompson center pistol with sights and a bi pod is now an SBR under this law. It’s just confusing specifically when they said a year ago putting a brace to your shoulder isn’t turning the pistol into an SBR. Also no idea how they can take accessories into account making it an SBR. The gun is either an SBR or not as it functions not what accessory you have on it.


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So a pistol (like glock 17 plain Jane pistol) with an optic and suppressor sights gets a point?

As for LE not knowing guns. In a unit of roughly 20 investigators, there are 2 guys who get called upon when it comes to guns. Me and one other guy. Most others know enough to get their duty weapon loaded and shot. Thats it. Some can barely do that

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Old 09-27-2021, 01:20 PM   #31
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The law says on or about your person. The phrase “or about your person” merely means in the area. If it is in your vehicle, it is about your person.

If the law required it to be on your person only, why would they even add the phrase “or about”?

In Christian v. State (Texas Court of Criminal Appeals which is the Supreme Court for Texas criminal law) it clearly states that inside the passenger compartment is “or about” your person. This is a quote from that caselaw, “this Court's recognition that "on or about [the] person" extends to cover at least the interior of an automobile, see Courtney v. State”. So you can see that or about your personal covers “at least” the interior of your vehicle. That means it probably leaves open areas that might not be in the interior of your vehicle. I can only guess but if you saw the police walking up and tossed your handgun outside the car, it might still be on or about your person but that might be for a different discussion.

In Courtney v. State which Christian cites, The gun was found on the floorboard and this was found to comply with the phrase “or about your person”.

Secondly, the section you cited is for a person with an LTC only. That is a duty to display your LTC and I believe they removed the penalty for failing to comply. In other words it is technically a law but there is nothing they can do if you do not comply.

Other than section 411 that applies to LTC, is there anywhere else that has the requirement to disclose?

Say for example if I didn’t have an LTC and have a concealed handgun in the vehicle under the MPA, would that still apply?


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Old 09-27-2021, 02:18 PM   #32
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other than section 411 that applies to ltc, is there anywhere else that has the requirement to disclose?

Say for example if i didn’t have an ltc and have a concealed handgun in the vehicle under the mpa, would that still apply?


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mpa?
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Old 09-28-2021, 10:52 AM   #33
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I went and SBR'd my pistols. I figured it is coming eventually so I wanted to get our in front of the rush. Took 1 month to get them.
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Old 09-29-2021, 08:20 AM   #34
scott.str
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Flower mound tx
Hunt In: Mitchell, County
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Only thing I’d have to do is update my trust but that’s just annoying with all the new fingerprints and stuff


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I went and SBR'd my pistols. I figured it is coming eventually so I wanted to get our in front of the rush. Took 1 month to get them.
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Old 09-29-2021, 08:51 AM   #35
Fordnandez
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Hunt In: Rocksprings, TX
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Originally Posted by scott.str View Post
Only thing I’d have to do is update my trust but that’s just annoying with all the new fingerprints and stuff
I didnt have to redo all the finger prints and what not. I just walked in with my trust to a place that I had already bought suppressors at and did the paper work. One month later I got the email, went over there and they had to engrave my trust name in the lower. Cost me around $300 a gun including the engraving.
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Old 09-29-2021, 09:02 AM   #36
ultrastealth
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Location: Katy
Hunt In: Camp Wood, TX
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My understanding is that BATF-ck has decided to "study the responses" for several months before making a decision.
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Old 09-29-2021, 09:03 AM   #37
npe001
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Location: Tomball, Texas
Hunt In: Madisonville, Tx
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The key is mass non compliance...
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Old 09-29-2021, 09:09 AM   #38
ultrastealth
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The key is mass non compliance...
There are a bunch of unregistered machine guns out there, so that would be nothing new.
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Old 09-29-2021, 11:23 AM   #39
scott.str
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Location: Flower mound tx
Hunt In: Mitchell, County
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Yea all mine is pre Obama and haven’t added to my original trust.

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Originally Posted by Fordnandez View Post
I didnt have to redo all the finger prints and what not. I just walked in with my trust to a place that I had already bought suppressors at and did the paper work. One month later I got the email, went over there and they had to engrave my trust name in the lower. Cost me around $300 a gun including the engraving.
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Old 09-30-2021, 11:40 AM   #40
justletmein
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Antonio \ Cheyenne
Hunt In: Public lands
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The key is mass non compliance...
The biggest thing I worry about here is when someone ends up using an AR pistol to defend their home or whatever. Now all of a sudden they're an extremist felon and their whole case can turn a different direction.
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