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HB957 - ATF response on TX made Suppressors

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    #31
    Originally posted by TxBowHntr View Post
    I didn't think you had to show proof to a range officer, only law enforcement. Is this not the case?

    Technically only a federal agent. Might not get too far not showing an officer and might get denied use of range if not shown to the RO but legally only have to show a fed boy


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      #32
      Originally posted by TxBowHntr View Post
      I didn't think you had to show proof to a range officer, only law enforcement. Is this not the case?
      That RO is on a power trip. Unless it's range policy. If not, ask him for his badge. If he doesn't have one then tell him to kick rocks

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        #33
        Originally posted by texasforever View Post
        Technically only a federal agent. Might not get too far not showing an officer and might get denied use of range if not shown to the RO but legally only have to show a fed boy


        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
        Uhhhh…… no.

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          #34
          Originally posted by tvc184 View Post
          Uhhhh…… no.
          Figured you’d get in on that action

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            #35
            Originally posted by tvc184 View Post
            Uhhhh…… no.

            Not that I’m doubting you, but why would anyone else be privy to a tax document?


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              #36
              Originally posted by Mike D View Post
              Not that I’m doubting you, but why would anyone else be privy to a tax document?


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              Because all NFA items are a crime in Texas. I could stop right there with a simple answer but….

              An officer can detain a person with only reasonable suspicion that someone has committed a crime such as possession of an NFA item. If a person possesses any NFA item, that is probable cause to make an arrest.

              It is not a matter of being privy to a tax document. All NFA items are a crime unless you possess that tax document. Probable cause does not require an officer to investigate every possibility. Basically it is on you to show that the item is legal, which is also under federal law.

              It all comes down to dual sovereignty. If Texas had no such law involving an NFA item, they would have no authority. Texas does make it a crime to possess those firearms and accessories so they have every authority to either place you in jail or have you demonstrate the ability to lawfully possess the item.

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                #37
                Originally posted by Mike D View Post
                Not that I’m doubting you, but why would anyone else be privy to a tax document?


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
                And speaking purely by the law, In the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure (which lays out the laws for arrest, search warrants, etc.) Section 14.01(a) it says that any person can arrest for a felony that occurs in his presence.

                Possession of a machine gun is a felony. By law if any person witnesses you with a machine gun, that person can arrest you with probable cause that you possess it.

                In my opinion…..

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by tvc184 View Post
                  And speaking purely by the law, In the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure (which lays out the laws for arrest, search warrants, etc.) Section 14.01(a) it says that any person can arrest for a felony that occurs in his presence.

                  Possession of a machine gun is a felony. By law if any person witnesses you with a machine gun, that person can arrest you with probable cause that you possess it.

                  In my opinion…..
                  And in walks defense of prosecution. And officers have NO excuse not to know the laws they enforce.

                  In recent weeks, select organizations have made the claim that items regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) are illegal to possess in Texas and four other states with large NFA markets. These states include Alaska, Oklahoma, Tennessee, and Washington. This claim is false. NFA items ARE LEGAL to own and possess in […]

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by trophy8 View Post
                    And in walks defense of prosecution. And officers have NO excuse not to know the laws they enforce.

                    https://americansuppressorassociatio...egal-in-texas/
                    I am not sure what you are claiming that some officer is not aware of.

                    Defenses to prosecution are a court proceeding.

                    In a defense to a prosecution, the defendant has to bring up evidence that he is not guilty. In this case it would be by showing a federal NFA tax stamp/receipt.

                    That is the answer I gave Mike D. The issue is about a statement that you only have to show a tax stamp/receipt to a federal agent. That is incorrect as the article that you posted states.

                    The article while correct, implies by its headline and then in a bold statement that NFA item are simply legal in Texas. Then it goes on to explain that they are only legal if you possess a federal tax stamp and you are required to produce it an order to avoid prosecution. That was a question to begin with.

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by tvc184 View Post
                      I am not sure what you are claiming that some officer is not aware of.

                      Defenses to prosecution are a court proceeding.

                      In a defense to a prosecution, the defendant has to bring up evidence that he is not guilty. In this case it would be by showing a federal NFA tax stamp/receipt.

                      That is the answer I gave Mike D. The issue is about a statement that you only have to show a tax stamp/receipt to a federal agent. That is incorrect as the article that you posted states.

                      The article while correct, implies by its headline and then in a bold statement that NFA item are simply legal in Texas. Then it goes on to explain that they are only legal if you possess a federal tax stamp and you are required to produce it an order to avoid prosecution. That was a question to begin with.
                      Your comments come across like you don’t agree with NFA items being legal. Maybe I’m reading too much into that. But the rest of your comments I agree with.

                      I don’t carry my forms. I have them in files on my phone and they “should” pull up. I can’t possibly carry all my forms. I have never been hassled by any officer. In the rare event I get pulled over, most of them want to talk about them and enjoy seeing them.

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                        #41
                        The other question is where are you going to find a dealer/mfg that will sell you one without a tax stamp? They face fed prosecution too

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by M16 View Post
                          So if you don't have an ffl you should be good to go. They should have implemented a TFL. Texas Firearms License issued by the State of Texas.
                          To me it also reads if you build your own you're good to go

                          Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by Saltaholic View Post
                            The other question is where are you going to find a dealer/mfg that will sell you one without a tax stamp? They face fed prosecution too
                            I am sure that someone wants to test the Supreme Court over the taxing authority of Congress in Article I of the Constitution… which has already been decided. US v. Miller (discussed later)

                            I am all for a new SCOTUS case. Maybe this court is more favorable and they will rule that Congress does have the authority to tax however they cannot tax a right. They could use the rationale that the 1A gives you the right to freedom of religion but you don’t have to pay tax for the federal government to go to church. That would overturn the prior NFA ruling. SCOTUS will do that from time to time when they revisit an issue.

                            I am all for it and think that would be awesome. I don’t feel like getting convicted of a felony in hopes that in three or four years later I “might” be exonerated and released from prison. Think of the fame and the hero a person would be though. Mike D v US or trophy8 v. US. Awesomeness!!!

                            US v. Miller
                            DC v Heller
                            Future Case (maybe with a TBH member name attached)

                            Here is the case for a future appeal and I think it is valid.

                            In US v. Miller the SCOTUS (unanimous ruling) ruled that the Congress has the right to tax an NFA item. That is a landmark ruling which is often cited today, even by the NRA. There is a flaw in Miller in my opinion that later turned up in DC v. Heller. To my knowledge no one has attempted to file a lawsuit or has gotten it far enough to use Heller to overturn Miller.

                            Part of the ruling of Miller said that Congress does have the right to tax but it also said that Miller cannot claim the 2A because a sawed-off shotgun is not part of a well regulated militia. Let’s highlight that part of the ruling. Miller lost his 2A argument partly because a sawed-off shotgun does not comply with the militia component of the 2A. We do not have to agree with the SCOTUS opinion however it is the current Case law.

                            So here is where I see the flaw. Miller said the sawed-off shotgun was not part of a well regulated militia. Unless something overtones it, that is the law. In 2008 along comes DC v. Heller. In Heller the SCOTUS said that…. “The Second Amendment protects an individual right to a firearm unconnected in service with the militia, and to use that arm for traditional lawful purposes, such as self-defense within a home”.

                            So Miller in the mid-1930s said that they well regulated militia was absolutely part of the right to ownership of a firearm however Heller came back in 2008 and said that it is not. so Heller overrules Miller on the basis that the 2A applies only to a well regulated militia.

                            In my opinion, Heller overturned Miller. The Supreme Court however does not go back and correct or re-issue rulings. They generally only answer the question in front of them. In Heller they answered the question, can Washington DC tell a man that he cannot possess a handgun in working order inside of his own home. They will overturn a prior decision if the correct question is asked in front of them. To my knowledge that argument has not been made.

                            Even though Miller stands today as current landmark caselaw, I think Heller and not long after that McDonald in an almost identical case to Heller, both overturned Miller but somebody has to be the test case and hope the Supreme Court uses that case to correct the militia issue. We have two relatively new Supreme Court decisions that appear to overturn the premise of a prior decision.

                            Maybe the NRA or GOA is using that argument to try to get such a case. I have not seen one if that is true. I think it is a valid argument which has a very good chance if someone can get the backing of the NRA or GOA for the money resources needed to make the appeal

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by Quackerbox View Post
                              To me it also reads if you build your own you're good to go

                              Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
                              …… however does building your own overcome the required tax stamp?

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by trophy8 View Post
                                Your comments come across like you don’t agree with NFA items being legal. Maybe I’m reading too much into that. But the rest of your comments I agree with.

                                I don’t carry my forms. I have them in files on my phone and they “should” pull up. I can’t possibly carry all my forms. I have never been hassled by any officer. In the rare event I get pulled over, most of them want to talk about them and enjoy seeing them.
                                NFA items are not legal… UNLESS….. you have paid the required federal tax. Any police officer in Texas who sees a person in possession of an NFA item, on the face of it is witnessing a crime. The article you posted agrees with that. The headlines of the article do not but in the body of the report, it completely agrees that it is an incumbent upon the possessor of the NFA item, to produce the stamp.

                                In post #29 it says that law enforcement must have probable cause to see the text aunt. The NFA is a probable cause to see a tax stamp because Texas law says that it is illegal.

                                In post #31 it says that only a federal agent can ask for the tax stamp. The article that you posted from a gun rights organization overtuns that argument.

                                So I will stick with my opinion in post #36, you do not have to be a federal agent in order to ask to see a tax stamp that makes an NFA item legal. You do not have to be a federal agent to make an arrest for NFA irem because Texas law also has the same crimes listed.

                                NFA items are legal if you have the required tax stamp and a state licensed police officer has the authority to ask to see that stamp.
                                Last edited by tvc184; 08-01-2021, 08:46 AM.

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