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Old 01-16-2023, 08:53 AM   #101
Clay C
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Any noise from the GOP about a LEO agency deciding millions of the GOP's constituents are now felons?
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Old 01-16-2023, 09:17 AM   #102
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Sure would like a SBR….


If a person had a few “pistols” what are the cons of making one a SBR during the tax stamp waive.

If the have cans pinned…which is the route….they are still on a list
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Old 01-16-2023, 09:32 AM   #103
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Sure would like a SBR….


If a person had a few “pistols” what are the cons of making one a SBR during the tax stamp waive.

If the have cans pinned…which is the route….they are still on a list

Keep in mind they have decided having a pistol brace makes you a felon right now at this very moment. They are just "gracious" enough to extend a period where you can "fix it" without being prosecuted. In other words, filing a form 1 during the amnesty period is just giving them a list of people that in their eyes are committing felonies. Their "good grace" could end any time they want it to.
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Old 01-16-2023, 09:54 AM   #104
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The way I see it is this: If you don’t sign up for the “amnesty” and you get caught with the now illegal firearm you are SOL. If you own suppressors, they already have given you the a**l exam and know as much about you as your mother knows, (maybe more). Tell me where I’m wrong.
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Old 01-16-2023, 10:13 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Drycreek3189 View Post
The way I see it is this: If you donít sign up for the ďamnestyĒ and you get caught with the now illegal firearm you are SOL. If you own suppressors, they already have given you the a**l exam and know as much about you as your mother knows, (maybe more). Tell me where Iím wrong.
And yet people are standing in line to get suppressors...
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Old 01-16-2023, 10:29 AM   #106
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Esit

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Old 01-16-2023, 10:30 AM   #107
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Sure would like a SBRÖ.


If a person had a few ďpistolsĒ what are the cons of making one a SBR during the tax stamp waive.

If the have cans pinnedÖwhich is the routeÖ.they are still on a list
Unless I misunderstand, these brace guns cannot go on your trust...if I'm wrong, someone please correct. I'm also uncertain what the steps are if you want to sell.

If you want a SBR, then pay for the stamp & play the game...if you decide, then get a suppressor at the same time. You won't want to shoot another AR unsuppressed after you have the real deal.

My gut tells me this whole deal is going to get tied up in the courts for a while...this is a huge constitutional overreach & again, I think the Va vs EPA win is on our side. DOJ cannot make law.

I wouldn't touch this if I had a brace.
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Old 01-16-2023, 10:39 AM   #108
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I believe this will get tossed out by the courts. Not any different than the bump stock ban. Wait and see. This is all about registration of guns.
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Old 01-16-2023, 10:41 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by locolobo View Post
"Not a **** thing like they have for the past 20 years or so. They probably worked WITH the ATF on this"

And it took the NRA all this time to get it through to the Supreme court!
You need to get your ducks in a row fella! It takes years for a lot of this $#!t to work its way through the system and obviously, You do not have the guts to see it through. The NRA did!
You must have started drinking early yesterday?? Where did I say anything about the NRA??
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Old 01-16-2023, 10:43 AM   #110
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Unless I misunderstand, these brace guns cannot go on your trust...if I'm wrong, someone please correct. I'm also uncertain what the steps are if you want to sell.

If you want a SBR, then pay for the stamp & play the game...if you decide, then get a suppressor at the same time. You won't want to shoot another AR unsuppressed after you have the real deal.

My gut tells me this whole deal is going to get tied up in the courts for a while...this is a huge constitutional overreach & again, I think the Va vs EPA win is on our side. DOJ cannot make law.

I wouldn't touch this if I had a brace.


thanks...I am working towards a 10.5 with a designated can...that gets around the SBR and only has me on the hanger for the can.

This will be a gun that sits in the corner unless SHTF/uvalde type scenario
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Old 01-16-2023, 10:52 AM   #111
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Another $200 isn't going to make you rich or poor...get one with a quick detach & have the ability to move it around for another gun / guns.

You will love shooting it & won't sit in the safe.
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Old 01-16-2023, 11:20 AM   #112
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Another $200 isn't going to make you rich or poor...get one with a quick detach & have the ability to move it around for another gun / guns.

You will love shooting it & won't sit in the safe.
You convinced me 😂
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Old 01-16-2023, 11:32 AM   #113
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I believe this will get tossed out by the courts. Not any different than the bump stock ban. Wait and see. This is all about registration of guns.


How long did it take for the bump stock ban to be overturned? There are millions more braces than bumpstocks out there. Some people will be used as examples before it’s overturned, if it is at all.

Sometimes The process is the punishment.
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Old 01-16-2023, 11:36 AM   #114
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How long did the bump stock ban take to overturn?

Sometimes The process is the punishment.
On another site, the consensus is slap a 16" upper on it or disassemble, have mass non-compliance & simply wait it out.
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Old 01-16-2023, 11:49 AM   #115
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On another site, the consensus is slap a 16" upper on it or disassemble, have mass non-compliance & simply wait it out.
but having a less than 16 inch upper in possession without at least 1 SBR in your name is going to cause problems. A disassembled AR pistol will still be an SBR by definition, correct?

"A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they:
(a)serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
or (b) convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm."

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Old 01-16-2023, 12:01 PM   #116
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Thus, the disassembly of the shorty upper...
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Old 01-16-2023, 12:55 PM   #117
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Thus, the disassembly of the shorty upper...
and disposal of the barrel...

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Old 01-16-2023, 01:03 PM   #118
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Any noise from the GOP about a LEO agency deciding millions of the GOP's constituents are now felons?
LOL. They are ALL the same Government. The only time they are pro 2a is when they are campaigning
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Old 01-16-2023, 01:20 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by duckmanep View Post
and disposal of the barrel...

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Can you please point out the law where just a barrel itself that is under 16" is illegal??

Nobody advised to keep all the parts in the same box.
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Old 01-16-2023, 03:29 PM   #120
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Can you please point out the law where just a barrel itself that is under 16" is illegal??

Nobody advised to keep all the parts in the same box.

And what is the definition of close proximity?


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Old 01-16-2023, 03:31 PM   #121
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IMO the ATF knows this will be tossed out in court.

There is already precedent on braces. And if the 40m number is correct itís definitely in common use. Also as I understand it, there are only (8) processors for Form 1. If my math is correct, if each form was processed in 1 minute, it would take 69 +/- YEARS to process all of the forms. That ainít gonna happen.


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Old 01-16-2023, 03:55 PM   #122
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IMO the ATF knows this will be tossed out in court.

There is already precedent on braces. And if the 40m number is correct itís definitely in common use. Also as I understand it, there are only (8) processors for Form 1. If my math is correct, if each form was processed in 1 minute, it would take 69 +/- YEARS to process all of the forms. That ainít gonna happen.


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Yeah they are just hoping for some voluntary registration in the meantime.

Since the ban on bumpstocks, less than 1k have been turned in. They estimate about 500k of them are out there LOL. If there's 40m braces out there sheesh
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Old 01-16-2023, 04:15 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
IMO the ATF knows this will be tossed out in court.

There is already precedent on braces. And if the 40m number is correct itís definitely in common use. Also as I understand it, there are only (8) processors for Form 1. If my math is correct, if each form was processed in 1 minute, it would take 69 +/- YEARS to process all of the forms. That ainít gonna happen.


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A guy calculated in on Reddit and came up with like 80 years. lol what a joke. nothing more than a fear tactic to start a registry..
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Old 01-16-2023, 05:47 PM   #124
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A guy calculated in on Reddit and came up with like 80 years. lol what a joke. nothing more than a fear tactic to start a registry..

Yeah they are trying to see how many sheep will voluntarily jump and register their property because well you know, itís free.


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Old 01-16-2023, 06:52 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
IMO the ATF knows this will be tossed out in court.

There is already precedent on braces. And if the 40m number is correct itís definitely in common use. Also as I understand it, there are only (8) processors for Form 1. If my math is correct, if each form was processed in 1 minute, it would take 69 +/- YEARS to process all of the forms. That ainít gonna happen.


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I saw one of the YouTube (real) lawyers bring that up. It was something like, well they just increased their workload by few decades.
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Old 01-16-2023, 07:04 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Drycreek3189 View Post
The way I see it is this: If you donít sign up for the ďamnestyĒ and you get caught with the now illegal firearm you are SOL. If you own suppressors, they already have given you the a**l exam and know as much about you as your mother knows, (maybe more). Tell me where Iím wrong.
Why not just be patient and see what happens vs being part of this De Facto gun registration, which is exactly what it is. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am saying that they have you right where they want you if these are your thoughts.
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Old 01-16-2023, 07:05 PM   #127
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Yeah they are trying to see how many sheep will voluntarily jump and register their property because well you know, itís free.


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While I agree with that premise, I am still wondering about the logic.

How many people on TBH have an NFA machine gun, SBR, SBS or suppressor?

How many threads and comments have we seen asking how long the paperwork will be on their suppressor, SBR, etc? How do they get a trust for an NFA, how can it be modified to add people, etc?

So apparently plenty of people have NFA items which are absolutely registered and plenty more have inquired about it.

So now a person can basically have a registered NFA SBR (pistol with a stock/ race) for free or the same person can say, youíre not going to fool me by getting me to register my brace to make an SBR for free. Iím falling for that scam requiring me to register it, I am going out and getting a $200 stamp to get an SBR and register it!!
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Old 01-16-2023, 09:43 PM   #128
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I’m kinda wondering if they aren’t doing it to slow down NFA purchases as well. The wait time will be insane.
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Old 01-16-2023, 10:14 PM   #129
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Iím kinda wondering if they arenít doing it to slow down NFA purchases as well. The wait time will be insane.
kill 2 birds with one stone ... it will be a decade before it gets approved ... mean time yall are felons anyways , and they got all your info , your serial number , your address etc .... and now they can blame this volume to kill suppressors and MG for years ....

my recommendation , take the brace off .. wrap it in plastic , vacuum seal or whatever and bury it in your backyard till this nonsense blows over ...

they's not going to come dig up your backyard to find a brace...
or give it to a friend or family member to hold ... or get a po box or a locker .. just somewhere you can get to later...

unless you break the law and they find it due to a warrant , they'll never know .. and if you do get a warrant, you probably got bigger problems already.
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Old 01-17-2023, 06:55 AM   #130
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How would a person know that the law has changed if the did not do social media.
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Old 01-17-2023, 07:39 AM   #131
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How would a person know that the law has changed if the did not do social media.
They wouldn't and I'm sure some will pay dearly which is unfortunate. Imagine the old farmer who bought a complete pistol package last time he was at the gun shop because it looked like the ultimate truck/tractor gun. Just unreal what's happening in this country.
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Old 01-17-2023, 07:58 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
Yeah they are trying to see how many sheep will voluntarily jump and register their property because well you know, itís free.


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what makes a guy with a pistol that wants to seize the opportunity to make it a legal SBR a sheep?

We are talking about a defined law that has been law for a long time (<16" = SBR and needs stamp) where a goofy loophole existed when some dude started calling his stock a brace and now they have closed that loophole and are giving people an opportunity to comply.

Everyone put rifle optics and other rifle accessories on these pistols and expected the ATF to keep calling them pistols? They have been SBRs the whole time and now they are ready to enforce it. Fun while it lasted not having to stamp all of them, but this is not a fight I see us winning.

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Old 01-17-2023, 08:23 AM   #133
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SBR or pistol?
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Old 01-17-2023, 08:30 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by duckmanep View Post
what makes a guy with a pistol that wants to seize the opportunity to make it a legal SBR a sheep?

We are talking about a defined law that has been law for a long time (<16" = SBR and needs stamp) where a goofy loophole existed when some dude started calling his stock a brace and now they have closed that loophole and are giving people an opportunity to comply.

Everyone put rifle optics and other rifle accessories on these pistols and expected the ATF to keep calling them pistols? They have been SBRs the whole time and now they are ready to enforce it. Fun while it lasted not having to stamp all of them, but this is not a fight I see us winning.

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Except they are saying the AR pistols with the buffer tubes are now SBRs. Thats no goofy loophole.
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Old 01-17-2023, 08:31 AM   #135
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Just got invited to a Stabilizing Brace Virtual Training on WebEx for FFLs.....lets here some wisdom!
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Old 01-17-2023, 08:49 AM   #136
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Except they are saying the AR pistols with the buffer tubes are now SBRs. Thats no goofy loophole.
I realize my opinion is unpopular, but just trying to use common sense on this one. How many guys are running bare tubes? I would guess 90%+ have adjustable braces with rifle optics. That's a rifle in a loophole.

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Old 01-17-2023, 09:43 AM   #137
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ATF: Pistol Braces are fine.

ATF a few years later: LOL we changed our mind. How do you like being a felon? Remember, we will murder your Wife, Children and Dogs over less.
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Old 01-17-2023, 03:46 PM   #138
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I realize my opinion is unpopular, but just trying to use common sense on this one. How many guys are running bare tubes? I would guess 90%+ have adjustable braces with rifle optics. That's a rifle in a loophole.

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But per THEIR RULES it was/is legal.
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Old 01-17-2023, 04:00 PM   #139
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But per THEIR RULES it was/is legal.
WAS is right, evidently IS ainít any more. They changed the rules because itís their game. It sucks but it is what it is. Write your congressman and senator. When they look up from whatever azz they are currently kissing it might change, but I doubt it. The majority of the DC crowd doesnít give a ratís south end about the 2nd Amendment unless they are trying to work around it. Theyíve been doing that since 1934 and Iím just amazed that the ďtaxĒ is still $200. That was an astronomical amount of money for most folks in 1934 but it ainít squat now.
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Old 01-17-2023, 04:17 PM   #140
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but having a less than 16 inch upper in possession without at least 1 SBR in your name is going to cause problems. A disassembled AR pistol will still be an SBR by definition, correct?

"A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they:
(a)serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
or (b) convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm."

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So I can prop up my night stand that is missing a leg, with my 10.5" upper. That way its serving another purpose. Next problem!
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Old 01-17-2023, 04:24 PM   #141
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Today, the Department of Justice announced it has submitted to the Federal Register the “Stabilizing Braces” Final Rule, which makes clear that when manufacturers, dealers, and individuals use stabilizing braces to convert pistols into rifles with a barrel of less than 16 inches, commonly referred to as a short-barreled rifles, they must comply with the laws that regulate those rifles, including the National Firearms Act (NFA). In April 2021, at an event with President Biden, the Attorney General directed the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) to address the issue of stabilizing braces.

Here is the first paragraph of the article. Notice in the first sentence the word "submitted". How come I have not seen this on the news? I have registered items with the ATF and have not received any emails from them on this matter.
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Old 01-17-2023, 04:31 PM   #142
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Does anyone have a link to this form to fill out? I would like to see it.
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Old 01-17-2023, 05:51 PM   #143
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I've been on a lot of murder and shooting scenes in my life. Not one involved a "supporting brace" or any of that. So FORNICATE you ATF.

You're still using the "F" word, Bobby.


But I'll "cheers to that".
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Old 01-17-2023, 06:20 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by duckmanep View Post
I realize my opinion is unpopular, but just trying to use common sense on this one. How many guys are running bare tubes? I would guess 90%+ have adjustable braces with rifle optics. That's a rifle in a loophole.

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How any if them are committing crimes with themÖthats the rub.
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Old 01-17-2023, 06:43 PM   #145
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sbr or pistol?
An LBH

Last edited by tvc184; 01-17-2023 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 01-17-2023, 06:53 PM   #146
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But per THEIR RULES it was/is legal.
I know that the law and the Constitution are not exactly a popular topic, butÖ.

That sure seems like it violates Article I, Section 9 where it says that no bills of attainder or ex post facto law shall be passed. I would think that constitutionally it also applies to government agencies who have rule interpreting authority.
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Old 01-17-2023, 07:11 PM   #147
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I know that the law and the Constitution are not exactly a popular topic, butÖ.

That sure seems like it violates Article I, Section 9 where it says that no bills of attainder or ex post facto law shall be passed. I would think that constitutionally it also applies to government agencies who have rule interpreting authority.
Dumb that down for me
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Old 01-17-2023, 07:46 PM   #148
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While I agree with that premise, I am still wondering about the logic.

How many people on TBH have an NFA machine gun, SBR, SBS or suppressor?

How many threads and comments have we seen asking how long the paperwork will be on their suppressor, SBR, etc? How do they get a trust for an NFA, how can it be modified to add people, etc?

So apparently plenty of people have NFA items which are absolutely registered and plenty more have inquired about it.

So now a person can basically have a registered NFA SBR (pistol with a stock/ race) for free or the same person can say, youíre not going to fool me by getting me to register my brace to make an SBR for free. Iím falling for that scam requiring me to register it, I am going out and getting a $200 stamp to get an SBR and register it!!

Well suppressors, SBS, et Al have been settled law for a long time so it just goes with the territory.

This is a complete 180 from what has been a legal, unregistered firearm that now all of a sudden they want you to either modify, register, destroy or forfeit.

They are sweetening the pot to get as many of them registered as possible since they canít ďlegallyĒ have a general gun registry (nod, nod, wink, wink).

All IMO of course.


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Old 01-17-2023, 07:48 PM   #149
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what makes a guy with a pistol that wants to seize the opportunity to make it a legal SBR a sheep?

We are talking about a defined law that has been law for a long time (<16" = SBR and needs stamp) where a goofy loophole existed when some dude started calling his stock a brace and now they have closed that loophole and are giving people an opportunity to comply.

Everyone put rifle optics and other rifle accessories on these pistols and expected the ATF to keep calling them pistols? They have been SBRs the whole time and now they are ready to enforce it. Fun while it lasted not having to stamp all of them, but this is not a fight I see us winning.

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If you wanted an SBR then why didnít you buy an SBR to begin with?

I donít believe in loopholes. Itís either law or it isnít. SBRs have been law since the 1930 and pistols have been pistols; until now.


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Old 01-17-2023, 07:50 PM   #150
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Dumb that down for me
The Constitution says that a law cannot be enacted that makes a crime of something that happened previously. Basically it is unconstitutional to make a retroactive law. They can make a law that says addresses a crime AFTER the law was enacted.

So if ATF made a ruling (if Congress gave them that authority) that a brace was legal and people purchased them by the millions, what authority do they have to make something illegal retroactively?

From the Constitution:

Article I Legislative Branch
Section 9 Powers Denied Congress
Clause 3 Nullification
No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.


If Congress canít constitutionally pass a retroactive law, can the ATF (or anyone else) change a law to make a personal a criminal if he was not a criminal when the act was committed?

Bill of Attainder: Enacted legislation that declares a person a criminal.

Ex Post Facto: An ex post facto law is a law that retroactively changes the legal consequences (or status) of actions that were committed, or relationships that existed, before the enactment of the law. In criminal law, it may criminalize actions that were legal when committed.

So does it seem like it should be unconstitutional to make a person a criminal when the act that he committed was not a crime at the time?
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