ATF has made their ruling

[EastTexasTiger]

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justi...s-used-convert

heads up gentlemen. so much for "shall not be infringed"

[Spiderpig1776]

Come and get it I’m not turning in anything

[Drycreek3189]

Looks like you can register it like a suppressor but don’t have to pay the tax.

[Quackerbox]

......which makes clear that when manufacturers, dealers, and individuals use stabilizing braces to convert pistols into rifles with a barrel of less than 16 inches, commonly referred to as a short-barreled rifles, they must comply with the laws that regulate those rifles......

what if it's built from a pistol from the jump? And I thought it was always illegal to turn a rifle to a pistol?

[Budman68]

So I can just remove the brace and I'm cool. Or can I just leave the brace and add a 16" barrel? Never been a fan of the foam sleeve.

[Buckshot4900]

Originally Posted by Spiderpig1776

Come and get it I’m not turning in anything

I agree and the end of that barrel gets really hot on that end.


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[Artos]

Originally Posted by Drycreek3189

Looks like you can register it like a suppressor but don’t have to pay the tax.

Where are you seeing that??

[Twist]

Originally Posted by Quackerbox

what if it's built from a pistol from the jump? And I thought it was always illegal to turn a rifle to a pistol?

Aaaaand, what if the firearm in question is chambered in a pistol caliber?

[Quackerbox]

Originally Posted by Twist

Aaaaand, what if the firearm in question is chambered in a pistol caliber?

In reality what makes a pistol caliber?

For years rifles and pistols where chambered same so you only had to carry one caliber ammo. The thing reads some some FJB flunky that don't know 223 from 22lr wrote it


"More destructive power" I'd like the author to explain bullet velocity in a short barrel vs. 16"

[Artos]

Originally Posted by Quackerbox

......which makes clear that when manufacturers, dealers, and individuals use stabilizing braces to convert pistols into rifles with a barrel of less than 16 inches, commonly referred to as a short-barreled rifles, they must comply with the laws that regulate those rifles......

What if it's built from a pistol from the jump? And I thought it was always illegal to turn a rifle to a pistol?

All these guns that were made complete / shipped with braces (under16") are registered as a pistol from the mfg.

Boy, the fireworks are gonna be good...I sold my cmmg a few months ago, but would just register it & put a real stock on it if I still had it.


Caliber is irrelevant.

[Twist]

Originally Posted by Quackerbox

In reality what makes a pistol caliber?

For years rifles and pistols where chambered same so you only had to carry one caliber ammo. The thing reads some some FJB flunky that don't know 223 from 22lr wrote it


"More destructive power" I'd like the author to explain bullet velocity in a short barrel vs. 16"

I have absolutely no answer to that, just trying to make sense of yet another BS ruling by an alphabet agency.

Going to seem pretty difficult to prosecute people on this though, when the braces had been previously deemed legal and likely hundreds of thousands were sold under that interpretation.

[Quackerbox]

Originally Posted by Artos

All these guns that were made complete / shipped with braces (under16") are registered as a pistol from the mfg.

Boy, the fireworks are gonna be good...I sold my cmmg a few months ago, but would just register it & put a real stock on it if I still had it.


Caliber is irrelevant.

Every brace gun I've been around was a kit or built from scratch. Lowers are stamped multi or 223//5.56. The yellow forms could have said rifle or pistol depending on the seller. Being we don't have a state registration in Texas, an E trace is the only way to find out who has what. And that don't really make a hill of beans sense


And i understand caliber don't matter. Just conversation sake

Originally Posted by Twist

I have absolutely no answer to that, just trying to make sense of yet another BS ruling by an alphabet agency.

Going to seem pretty difficult to prosecute people on this though, when the braces had been previously deemed legal and likely hundreds of thousands were sold under that interpretation.

Absolutely

[Harry311]

Originally Posted by Artos

Where are you seeing that??

“ The rule goes into effect on the date of publication in the Federal Register. The rule allows for a 120-day period for manufacturers, dealers, and individuals to register tax-free any existing NFA short-barreled rifles covered by the rule.”

[Artos]

Originally Posted by Quackerbox

Every brace gun I've been around was a kit or built from scratch. Lowers are stamped multi or 223//5.56. The yellow forms could have said rifle or pistol depending on the seller. Being we don't have a state registration in Texas, an E trace is the only way to find out who has what. And that don't really make a hill of beans sense

Lots of mfg like Palmetto State & other AR mfg's (also other models) are shipped with braces as pistols...gonna put a real hurt on Co's like CMMG who specialize I reckon.

https://cmmg.com/banshee

I have transferred several pistol lowers w/ braces from Palmetto over the years...those that just order the receiver is considered just that until it's final configuration, then it's designated to her build.


Thank you Harry...missed it.

[Twist]

Originally Posted by Artos

Lots of mfg like Palmetto State & other AR mfg's (also other models) are shipped with braces as pistols...gonna put a real hurt on Co's like CMMG who specialize I reckon.

https://cmmg.com/banshee

I have transferred several pistol lowers w/ braces from Palmetto over the years...those that just order the receiver is considered just that until it's final configuration, then it's designated to her build.


Thank you Harry...missed it.

^^^Yep. And they were previously approved to be manufactured and sold in that configuration.

I’ve thrown that one on here a few times before and that would be one of the CMMG offerings Artos is likely mentioning.

The only changes to that “rifle” from how it was shipped would be the sling, sight and riser the sight is mounted on.


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[Drycreek3189]

Originally Posted by Artos

Where are you seeing that??

In the link.

[Artos]

Originally Posted by Budman68

So I can just remove the brace and I'm cool. Or can I just leave the brace and add a 16" barrel? Never been a fan of the foam sleeve.

Looks like you need a 16" bbl if you don't want to register...might as well get a rifle stock as well.


https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regula...espdf/download

(1) whether the weapon has a weight or length consistent with the weight or length of similarly designed rifles;

(2) whether the weapon has a length of pull, measured from the center of the trigger to the center of the shoulder stock or other rearward accessory, component or attachment (including an adjustable or telescoping attachment with the ability to lock into various positions along a buffer tube, receiver extension, or other attachment method), that is consistent with similarly designed rifles;

(3) whether the weapon is equipped with sights or a scope with eye relief that require the weapon to be fired from the shoulder in order to be used as designed;

(4) whether the surface area that allows the weapon to be fired from the shoulder is created by a buffer tube, receiver extension, or any other accessory, component, or other rearward attachment that is necessary for the cycle of operations;

[tps7742]

Artos the last paragraph in the link above.
“ The rule goes into effect on the date of publication in the Federal Register. The rule allows for a 120-day period for manufacturers, dealers, and individuals to register tax-free any existing NFA short-barreled rifles covered by the rule. Other options including removing the stabilizing brace to return the firearm to a pistol or surrendering covered short-barreled rifles to ATF. Nothing in this rule bans stabilizing braces or the use of stabilizing braces on pistols.”

[sierracharlie338]

Originally Posted by Quackerbox

......which makes clear that when manufacturers, dealers, and individuals use stabilizing braces to convert pistols into rifles with a barrel of less than 16 inches, commonly referred to as a short-barreled rifles, they must comply with the laws that regulate those rifles......

what if it's built from a pistol from the jump? And I thought it was always illegal to turn a rifle to a pistol?

These are my thoughts exactly.

Smh. . .


Sierracharlie out....

[Stan R]

Just got an email that Europtics is having a big sale.

[bboswell2.0]

Just put a stock on it….


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[mmoses]

Originally Posted by Quackerbox

Every brace gun I've been around was a kit or built from scratch. Lowers are stamped multi or 223//5.56. The yellow forms could have said rifle or pistol depending on the seller. Being we don't have a state registration in Texas, an E trace is the only way to find out who has what. And that don't really make a hill of beans sense


And i understand caliber don't matter. Just conversation sake




Absolutely

If you bought just the lower, the dealer should have put "Receiver/Frame"

Long gun and pistol is for complete guns only.

Should be interesting! Wonder what the NRA is going to do.

[bboswell]

Originally Posted by Twist

^^^Yep. And they were previously approved to be manufactured and sold in that configuration.

I’ve thrown that one on here a few times before and that would be one of the CMMG offerings Artos is likely mentioning.

The only changes to that “rifle” from how it was shipped would be the sling, sight and riser the sight is mounted on.


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How is that stamped different than the one I built from a new lower?

[bboswell]

Originally Posted by mmoses

If you bought just the lower, the dealer should have put "Receiver/Frame"
.

And where would the dealer have put this marking? On the paperwork that we have no requirement to keep?

[Twist]

Originally Posted by bboswell

How is that stamped different than the one I built from a new lower?

I can’t answer that question. What I can tell you is that firearm was built, marketed, bought and transferred exactly how it appears in that picture, sans the sling, riser and sight as I previously mentioned.

It was absolutely legal per the ATF at the time, brace included.

[txheartshot]

Originally Posted by Twist

I can’t answer that question. What I can tell you is that firearm was built, marketed, bought and transferred exactly how it appears in that picture, sans the sling, riser and sight as I previously mentioned.

It was absolutely legal per the ATF at the time, brace included.

Same for me. I may or may not have a couple of AR pistols that were sold complete at pistols. Maybe I’m missing something, but these will still be legal, correct?


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[Brute Killer]

"Suck it". Mohandas Gandhi
Also, Thomas Jefferson.

[bboswell]

Originally Posted by txheartshot

Same for me. I may or may not have a couple of AR pistols that were sold complete at pistols. Maybe I’m missing something, but these will still be legal, correct?


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ASSUMING the ones sold as pistols are still legal how does LE distinguish them from ones built at home?

[Twist]

Originally Posted by bboswell

How is that stamped different than the one I built from a new lower?

Thinking about it more, there’s only one answer I can come up with.

You bought a lower and built it. The Banshee I posted above that you asked about was a complete firearm that was marketed, shipped and transferred as a pistol.

Again, this is murky as all hell on several levels because the ATF had previously stated that a brace in an AR pistol was legal and didn’t distinguish between being shipped as such or being built after the fact.

It’s definitely confusing, which probably shouldn’t come as a shock with the g00bermint being involved.

[Playa]

Originally Posted by Brute Killer

"Suck it". Mohandas Gandhi
Also, Thomas Jefferson.

I thought that was Mother Theresa that said that?

[Brute Killer]

Originally Posted by Playa

I thought that was Mother Theresa that said that?

She probably did, but not in this context.

[tvc184]

I don’t have an AR style pistol so the nonsensical ruling doesn’t apply to me.

However….. and looking at questions like what about the ones that were manufactured or sold as pistols with a brace (legal when it was purchased) or a brace was later purchased as accessory (legal when it was purchased)? What about those formerly legal firearms that are now banned?

If I understand correctly, after reading the rules and after watching YouTube videos (naturally), they are giving 120 days to grandfather the existing braces free of charge.

So anything that you currently own and purchased as a legal firearm or accessory at the time, will still be legal if you fill out the free paperwork.

Is that correct?

I feel like running out and buying me an AR pistol with a brace and filing it for a free NFA.

Am I missing anything? Other than another ruling that is likely unconstitutional, can I now have an NFA short barrel rifle as defined as a pistol with a pistol brace?

[Mike D]

Originally Posted by mmoses

…….

Should be interesting! Wonder what the NRA is going to do.

Not a **** thing like they have for the past 20 years or so. They probably worked WITH the ATF on this.

They are a joke.

GOA, FPC and others will lead the fight in the courts.

Screw the NRA.


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[Artos]

It really doesn't matter how it was put together, what your lower was mfg as or logged in as by the ffl or even how you purchased the firearm...once the law goes into effect it's going to depend on the current configuration when / if checked.

If you bought a complete AR pistol w/ a brace & don't want to mess with all this, then you can put a 16" plus upper & it's now legally considered a rifle (always has been)...If you bought a complete AR rifle & turned it into a 10.5" w/ a pistol brace, then you are likely to have trouble when / if checked. (Before this law, it simply would have been viewed as a legal AR pistol)

Not sure how long it takes this to get published / finalized, but I suspect the lawsuits are gonna start rolling in...it's a WAG but thinking this is gonna get put on hold. You are talking MILLIONS of what were once legal pistols now considered NFA items that folks don't want to do & WHY many purchased them in the first place & you got Mfg's who make their living off the same.

Gonna be fireworks.

[Playa]

Originally Posted by Artos

It really doesn't matter how it was put together, what your lower was mfg as or logged in as by the ffl or even how you purchased the firearm...once the law goes into effect it's going to depend on the current configuration when / if checked.

If you bought a complete AR pistol w/ a brace & don't want to mess with all this, then you can put a 16" plus upper & it's now legally considered a rifle (always has been)...If you bought a complete AR rifle & turned it into a 10.5" w/ a pistol brace, then you are likely to have trouble when / if checked. (Before this law, it simply would have been viewed as a legal AR pistol)

Not sure how long it takes this to get published / finalized, but I suspect the lawsuits are gonna start rolling in...it's a WAG but thinking this is gonna get put on hold. You are talking MILLIONS of what were once legal pistols now considered NFA items that folks don't want to do & WHY many purchased them in the first place & you got Mfg's who make their living off the same.

Gonna be fireworks.

There will be no fireworks and this is a done deal. Trump set the precedent that a bureaucracy can make a ruling and change the legal status of thousands of gun related items when they banned bump stocks. And the fed government had nothing but power to gain in that instance. Now they have $ & power to gain, they aren’t going to rule against themselves. No, huh uh, the people ****ed

[Voodoo]

Best to use a Biden sanctioned Double barrel with buckshot.

[Artos]

Bump stock ruling was overturned...

[Raider4044]

Hmmmm, so if they are waiving the $200 tax to register firearms with braces, I wonder if you can swap to a rifle stock after you register it like a normal SBR?

I’ve got a few stripped lowers sitting in my safe I wouldn’t mind SBRing if they are waiving the $200….. I might have to dig around my closet and see if I can find a brace to throw on them temporarily.


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[FireNguns]

Hope they stream line the process to register current ones and not require the long wait, fingerprints, and pictures. Doubtful though.

What sucks is to have an SBR on a trust you still have to pay to have it engraved. Unless that has changed.
Fortunately I already have a registered SBR lower so I can just swap uppers for now but wouldn’t mind all my lowers being SBR compliant for free minus big brother know what I have.

Will you still be able to use and carry it while paperwork is waiting to be approved?

If bump stocks were overturned when will they say they are now legal to own?
I bet this will get overturned in time

[Chew]

I've been on a lot of murder and shooting scenes in my life. Not one involved a "supporting brace" or any of that. So FORNICATE you ATF.

[Twist]

Originally Posted by Chew

FORNICATE you ATF.

I’ll drink to that.

[txheartshot]

Originally Posted by Twist

I’ll drink to that.

Cheers that Chew!


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[Brute Killer]

My Little Armalite - YouTube

[cricman]

I would suggest looking a some excellent information provided by a Youtube channel called Washington Gun Law. The attorney that hosts the videos has put out some excellent and concise information regarding the pistol brace ruling, including definitions, options after the ban, and information regarding the proposed "amnesty" plan (likely a means by the ATF to collect information and allow post-registration inspections.) Be safe out there.


cricman

[tvc184]

Originally Posted by Chew

I've been on a lot of murder and shooting scenes in my life. Not one involved a "supporting brace" or any of that. So FORNICATE you ATF.

Like you and others in this forum, I have been to hundreds of such scenes. I always made that argument with some of the silly previous assault weapons ban law signed by Bill Clinton and fortunately Bush allowed it to expire. One of the items that made an “assault weapon” was a bayonet lug. Out of a few hundred such scenes, including well over 100 murders, I have never seen a person bayoneted. That was part of the law back then though, that the bayonet lug helped make it a dreaded weapon.

Add in barrel shrouds, high capacity magazines, a magazine in front of the trigger…….

It was/is all nonsense.

[Chew]

Originally Posted by tvc184

Like you and others in this forum, I have been to hundreds of such scenes. I always made that argument with some of the silly previous assault weapons ban law signed by Bill Clinton and fortunately Bush allowed it to expire. One of the items that made an “assault weapon” was a bayonet lug. Out of a few hundred such scenes, including well over 100 murders, I have never seen a person bayoneted. That was part of the law back then though, that the bayonet lug helped make it a dreaded weapon.

Add in barrel shrouds, high capacity magazines, a magazine in front of the trigger…….

It was/is all nonsense.

Yep. All feel good legislation that does nothing to suppress crime. Lock these violent MF'ers up for a long time if you want to do something meaningful. Same with suppressors. Worked homicide a long time and never saw one involved in a crime.

[Quackerbox]

Originally Posted by bboswell

ASSUMING the ones sold as pistols are still legal how does LE distinguish them from ones built at home?

I know, I know. They can't.

Never mind the average beat cop has no clue how one would obtain a stamp for a SBR or a can in the first place. Matter of fact I worked a shooting where a guy had a suppressed rifle ( sorry chew) and the investigator wanted to file on the guy cause "you can't own that". I found the correct paperwork later. And still had to explain it.

The only other suppressors I've seen had zero numbers engraved on them


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[trophy8]

Then when you register it, you’re practically married to it. Much more difficult to sell.

I’ve got a CZ scorpion I might do. Idk that I wanna keep it though. Everything else is already registered as SBRs. Hmmmmm


NFA backlog is fixing to be endless

[Mesquite Archer]

They just can't allow a disloyal subject to get around sending them the $200 tax they believe they are entitled to.

[imyomama]

Originally Posted by Raider4044

Hmmmm, so if they are waiving the $200 tax to register firearms with braces, I wonder if you can swap to a rifle stock after you register it like a normal SBR?

I’ve got a few stripped lowers sitting in my safe I wouldn’t mind SBRing if they are waiving the $200….. I might have to dig around my closet and see if I can find a brace to throw on them temporarily.


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actually it sounds like free sbr for everyone .. or is it??

a democrat like a chess player always looks a few moves ahead...

the difference between buying a gun ,doing a background check and an nfa item , is they are allowed to keep registration info on who has the nfa item and more importantly "where" . when you have an nfa item , it has to be kept at the location it is registered and if you move , you have to update it and tell them where it moved to.

by law , only your ffl keeps a copy of your form, and the atf is not supposed to long term document background checks .. so they can't tell who has what or where it goes after the sale. they can't possibly subpoena every ffl dealer in your area to find out if you bought a gun or not. it's not searchable by you.

this however tricks you into willingly sending in all your information and registering what you have....

this also makes it impossible for you to now sell it to anyone without paperwork or even to give it or lend it to anyone or leave it anywhere .

looks to me like they're just trying to use the nfa to click bait you into registering what you got !

i bet the next thing they will try is to make any ar15 part of the nfa too... even rifles... and i'm sure that will be free too .... and when they have final count , then they'll come pick them up , or further regulate what you can and can't do with them.

so you think you gonna save $200 , while you're actually selling away your liberty.

take that brace off ... and run a smooth buffer tube until this nonsense gets overturned in court ... don't fall for it.... this is just step 1 of their plan!