Protein vs Genetics

[Hogmauler]

What’s the point of feeding protein if you have average genetics in the bucks? Won’t you wind up with a buck that has a larger inferior rack? Does that make sense? I realize that protein is good for the deer population as far as food goes. What’s yalls take on it?

[1riot1ranger]

I don't expect much from a small low fence area. Primary use is to keep the deer visiting my place and attracting any exotics. Corn does the same goal but i like the idea of providing a little better choice in vittles. If anything it seems the drought affected antler growth this year.

[buckhunter1999]

A deer's genetics are pre determined. Protein will never make a buck bigger than it's genetics allow, but feeding deer protein may give them the extra nutrition they need to reach their full genetic potential.

[jshouse]

to maximize the genetics you have. if you are happy with what you have, dont feed. if you feed and still arent happy, go somewhere with bigger deer.

[Hogmauler]

Your the second brother that suggested that this year regarding drought. I had a biologist out when we bought the place. His take on mineral blocks etc was” if it makes you feel better do it. These deer have been thriving for years. What we call weeds the call food”.

[Charrison]

Average genetics or not, I still want my deer to reach their full genetic potential. Understanding that feeding protein on 1,000 acres low fence lease won't do a ton, but we have seen a big difference in the 5 years since we started.
I fill the free-choice protein feeder in mid-Dec as our bucks come out of rut. I think it helps their bodies recover quicker, so more nutrition for antler growth in the spring.

[slayer]

Well the way I see it, they get bigger and fatter and I don't shoot them to eat horns. . . .so protein is going 24/7/365. I do believe protein and supplements and herd management can effect future generations genetic code.

[Mitchell8]

Get their muscles bigger

[Chase This!]

Originally Posted by slayer

Well the way I see it, they get bigger and fatter and I don't shoot them to eat horns. . . .so protein is going 24/7/365. I do believe protein and supplements and herd management can effect future generations genetic code.

Did I read this correctly? You are feeding protein to get more meat out of your deer?

[Greenheadless]

Genetics should be third, maybe even fourth on your management list of things to worry about.

[jshouse]

Originally Posted by Greenheadless

Genetics should be third, maybe even fourth on your management list of things to worry about.

yep. my first priority would be taking out all the spikes.

[Greenheadless]

Originally Posted by jshouse

yep. my first priority would be taking out all the spikes.

[kyle1974]

body first, horns second. that's why you feed.

[jshouse]

Originally Posted by Greenheadless

someone was looking for you earlier in the seized horns thread....

[S-3 Ranch]

Better grub takes the physical pressure off both bucks and does during stress period and birthing & nursing , giving fawns a jumpstart in life

[CrownKiller14]

I saw a study that I'll dumbly summarize:

A deer's potential is basically decided during gestation (pregnancy). If the doe is starving and thirsty her offspring will most like never produce large antlers no matter how much protein they eat.

Providing nutrition to females (does) during pregnancy has been proven to maximize a deer genetic potential. So a nutrition program is going to take 4-6 years to see a difference.

[Chase This!]

Originally Posted by Greenheadless

Genetics should be third, maybe even fourth on your management list of things to worry about.

LoL

[Drycreek3189]

I feed protein on 80 acres.
Question…..Does it help ?
Answer…… It surely doesn’t hurt !

Your money, your choice.

[RR 314]

Originally Posted by CrownKiller14

I saw a study that I'll dumbly summarize:

A deer's potential is basically decided during gestation (pregnancy). If the doe is starving and thirsty her offspring will most like never produce large antlers no matter how much protein they eat.

Providing nutrition to females (does) during pregnancy has been proven to maximize a deer genetic potential. So a nutrition program is going to take 4-6 years to see a difference.

Hmmmn. Never would have thunk it. Still not sure I thunk it. :-). Studies following identical twins (humans) reveal twins separated at birth with one remaining in 3rd world country and other going to adoptive family in the "west" reveals child raised with better nutrition in the developed world is generally much taller/larger. Obviously had same prenatal nutrition.

[Hogmauler]

So is it necessary to feed protein all year?

[CrownKiller14]

Originally Posted by RR 314

Hmmmn. Never would have thunk it. Still not sure I thunk it. :-). Studies following identical twins (humans) reveal twins separated at birth with one remaining in 3rd world country and other going to adoptive family in the "west" reveals child raised with better nutrition in the developed world is generally much taller/larger. Obviously had same prenatal nutrition.

I get your point, but animals and humans aren't the same.

I wish I could find the study b/c I'm an idiot and have no business explaining it.

If I remember correctly :

The study showed (1) mother during pregnancy provided excess nutrition and (1) mother given below average nutrition. Fawn (bucks) were release to have natural forage and the buck with well nourished mother was larger fawn and grew into a much larger buck.

I could be completely full of it but this is what I remember.

[Hogmauler]

Brandon you got a laugh outta one of these post so what’s your take on it?

[kyle1974]

Originally Posted by CrownKiller14

I saw a study that I'll dumbly summarize:

A deer's potential is basically decided during gestation (pregnancy). If the doe is starving and thirsty her offspring will most like never produce large antlers no matter how much protein they eat.

Providing nutrition to females (does) during pregnancy has been proven to maximize a deer genetic potential. So a nutrition program is going to take 4-6 years to see a difference.

Wut?


I’d really be interested to see that study.

[Beargrasstx]

Originally Posted by Greenheadless

Genetics should be third, maybe even fourth on your management list of things to worry about.

This is true...unless you got a high fence, killed all the deer in fence, brought in deer with great genetics, never had another deer get in your enclosure to introduce bad genetics

Otherwise on a low fence, you are pissing in the wind trying to control genetics. You have no idea what genetics that doe is carrying and who breeds her. The breeding gets pretty dispersed among bucks in the wild versus a controlled environment

You can control habitat/food and age to a degree minus predators, neighbors, and disease

[AntlerCollector]

Why are you asking? I feel like you joined a lease that requires protein feeding year round, and you’re not a fan. Just a guess on my part though.


“Won’t you wind up with a buck that has a larger inferior rack?”

Well that’s one way of saying the largest racks the deer in your hunting area can grow.

If you want healthier deer than you currently have then feed them protein. It’s as simple as that.




And of course shoot all spikes. Everyone knows that.




.

[CrownKiller14]

Originally Posted by kyle1974

Wut?


I’d really be interested to see that study.

https://www.purinamills.com/deer-fee...etic-potential

This is the actual study, but I don't have a way to see the study now. (Might be outdated now days.)

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3799320?origin=crossref

[kyle1974]

I have read that line in this paragraph about ten times and still don’t really understand what they’re trying to say.

I’m no biologist but I would think genetic code is fixed, and not changed by nutrition.

[Hogmauler]

Originally Posted by Beargrasstx

This is true...unless you got a high fence, killed all the deer in fence, brought in deer with great genetics, never had another deer get in your enclosure to introduce bad genetics

Otherwise on a low fence, you are pissing in the wind trying to control genetics. You have no idea what genetics that doe is carrying and who breeds her. The breeding gets pretty dispersed among bucks in the wild versus a controlled environment

You can control habitat/food and age to a degree minus predators, neighbors, and disease

This is what I’m leaning towards. Most all the other property owners that own surrounding property have leases. I spoke with one and he had no interest in feeding protein, because he has a lease. With better genetics!! Lol!

[CrownKiller14]

Originally Posted by kyle1974

I have read that line in this paragraph about ten times and still don’t really understand what they’re trying to say.

I’m no biologist but I would think genetic code is fixed, and not changed by nutrition.

They aren't saying nutrition changed gen code, but implying that well feed does mother offspring that have a better chance to reach their max potential. But that is a feed company trying to sell feed.

[ElfEyes]

I would guess age then nutrition is the two major limiting factors of a bucks size. I've read and it makes sense that you're not likely to see the best results until the buck was raised from fawn to mature while eating an improved diet. I.e. protein or large food plots

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

[Greenheadless]

Originally Posted by Beargrasstx

This is true...unless you got a high fence, killed all the deer in fence, brought in deer with great genetics, never had another deer get in your enclosure to introduce bad genetics

Otherwise on a low fence, you are pissing in the wind trying to control genetics. You have no idea what genetics that doe is carrying and who breeds her. The breeding gets pretty dispersed among bucks in the wild versus a controlled environment

You can control habitat/food and age to a degree minus predators, neighbors, and disease

I agree, I assumed we were talking about a free range wild herd here.

Also, depends on how much land you are dealing with as well. I know our deer home ranges can be up to 6 square miles.

And, protein feeders might help, but not as much as getting the range conditions to its best potential. This could be improvements to the property or just plain population management. This is the hardest part for most as what I have experienced, most don’t know they carrying capacity and utilization rates.

I would think age would be next.

[Hogmauler]

I’ve been working on yaupon removal as I can afford it. Biologist mentioned range management as well.

[Leemo]

I got a headache now

[Hogmauler]

Originally Posted by Leemo

I got a headache now

Eat protein!

[Greenheadless]

Originally Posted by Hogmauler

I’ve been working on yaupon removal as I can afford it. Biologist mentioned range management as well.

On our place, yaupon is a second choice food source. While not preferred, if you are over populated, you may need it.

[Chase This!]

Originally Posted by Hogmauler

Brandon you got a laugh outta one of these post so what’s your take on it?

Protein takes care of the deer, so the deer can take care of their antlers. Deer can put energy towards surviving or towards antler growth.

Genetics is the #1 most important thing. No debate. That said, you can’t control them on low fence ranches (for the most part). If you have crap genetics on your place, you will not get much out of feeding protein. Even if they do add “inches”, are you ok paying real money turning a 115 into a 120?

[Chase This!]

Originally Posted by kyle1974

I’m no biologist but I would think genetic code is fixed, and not changed by nutrition.

I am.

It’s fixed. The exception is tumors.

[Benno]

One place we hunt we feed protein year round. On this place every doe I see has a fawn with her. The other place I hunt where we do not feed protein I’ve seen numerous does this year without a fawn. Reason enough for me.

On a side note, the place we do feed protein has a very equal buck/doe ratio. I am having a real hard time even seeing a buck that is not broken up this year. There are a few but I would say close to 90% of our bucks are broken, and not just a tine or tip of a beam, whole beams broke off, whole beams almost slick because every time has been broken off. I’ve never seen anything like it.

[RR 314]

Originally Posted by CrownKiller14

I get your point, but animals and humans aren't the same.

I wish I could find the study b/c I'm an idiot and have no business explaining it.

If I remember correctly :

The study showed (1) mother during pregnancy provided excess nutrition and (1) mother given below average nutrition. Fawn (bucks) were release to have natural forage and the buck with well nourished mother was larger fawn and grew into a much larger buck.

I could be completely full of it but this is what I remember.

Study states ". . . greater percentage OFF their genetic potential." If they aren't going to proof the dang propaganda, I'm not putting merit in it.

Could be a solid study. Just not sold. Thanks for tracking the article down.

[Hogmauler]

Originally Posted by Chase This!

Protein takes care of the deer, so the deer can take care of their antlers. Deer can put energy towards surviving or towards antler growth.

Genetics is the #1 most important thing. No debate. That said, you can’t control them on low fence ranches (for the most part). If you have crap genetics on your place, you will not get much out of feeding protein. Even if they do add “inches”, are you ok paying real money turning a 115 into a 120?

Boom! A friend of mine said “Bruce a 120” is considered a good buck around here” looks like I just saved some money. I did throw a couple of bags in the feeder earlier this year for good measure

[ElfEyes]

Originally Posted by Chase This!

Protein takes care of the deer, so the deer can take care of their antlers. Deer can put energy towards surviving or towards antler growth.



Genetics is the #1 most important thing. No debate. That said, you can’t control them on low fence ranches (for the most part). If you have crap genetics on your place, you will not get much out of feeding protein. Even if they do add “inches”, are you ok paying real money turning a 115 into a 120?

You ever see Elgatos thread? I think his deer gained more than 5 inches...

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

[ElfEyes]

https://youtu.be/0XSKVrNGbM0

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

[Greenheadless]

Originally Posted by ElfEyes

You ever see Elgatos thread? I think his deer gained more than 5 inches...

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

There is truth to his statement, but genetics is only one part of an overall management plan. You cant just single it out.

Your plan has to provide the habitat, nutrition, age structure, etc. for them to reach their full genetic potential. Most places do not do this.

Why would you try to mange genetics, when you might not have even realize what the genetic potential might be?

[W E H]

We’ve added 20% in horns and probably 15% in body mass to our deer in Lavaca county. Two deer over 150 where previously we had none consistently above 120. Plus lots above 120 now. If we can keep the poachers and neighbors not on our same mindset off them well produce some good bucks. Age and nutrition.

[Austin]

The second biggest component besides protein/nutrition is age. Many people see areas of the state say the hill country and assume a 120” buck is what the area genetics will allow. In reality the genetics in many areas of the state are much better that what the general consensus is.

As an example we hunt a high fenced property in Kerr county culling does and cull bucks. This ranch is 100% native Kerr county deer with no introduced genetics. They get protein from February-September. The property is not commercially hunted and most of the trophy caliber bucks end up dying of old age.

We start culling at 4.5 and the average cull is 6.5 cull deer are typically 110-130” and what we deem to be the bottom end of each age class

The ranch consistently produces(not to be read as killed) multiple bucks each year 160+ across several age classes from 5.5 to 9+ if they kill a trophy caliber buck it is typically not till 8+ to allow as many breeding seasons as possible. Biggest buck killed to date was a 199” typical for an area with bad genetics

[Hogmauler]

Lots of great points and info from the Biologist. And yes, you can’t manage one aspect of the deer population. It has to be the total package which is hard to do on low fence.

[HighwayHunter]

Would you rather shoot a 60” 6 point or 120” 6 point?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Iansumrall]

Originally Posted by kyle1974

body first, horns second. that's why you feed.

And you feed for the fetal programming. You feed the momma first before that buck ever hits the ground for maximum genetic potential. Then the buck’s own consumption of protein takes it from there!

[txbowman12]

https://extension.msstate.edu/sites/...ions/p3013.pdf

Epigenetics is the term you are looking for. The question I would have is can you effectively reproduce those effects or even some of them in free range deer.

Based on my experience, our does don’t get a ton of time on the protein, but they wear my food plot out in January and February. If you are able to give deer a jump start, it will probably make a difference. Ultimately though, it’s a multi-faceted issue, protein is one part of the equation

[mdnabors]

Originally Posted by CrownKiller14

I get your point, but animals and humans aren't the same.

I wish I could find the study b/c I'm an idiot and have no business explaining it.

If I remember correctly :

The study showed (1) mother during pregnancy provided excess nutrition and (1) mother given below average nutrition. Fawn (bucks) were release to have natural forage and the buck with well nourished mother was larger fawn and grew into a much larger buck.

I could be completely full of it but this is what I remember.

MSU Deer Lab..."Fetal Programming" podcast is worth the listen. Doe is mostly responsible for genetics of fawn and the more nutrition mom gets and passes on to fetus the better off that fawn is to reach it's potential. Basically pointing out that minerals, protein, etc...can help some, but it's really benefitting future generations much more...