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Old 09-29-2018, 08:44 AM   #1
RickBarbee
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Default "Instinctive" (Revisit)

I didn't get to go hunting on this morning's season opener , so I decided to revisit the "Instinctive" topic.

My instinctive shooting is actually quite a bit above that of most normal humans. Yes, I instinctively know to aim.

OK OK, it's all in jest, but hey, I need some excitement to fill the void of not being in the woods with my bow.

Thoughts?

Rick
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:46 AM   #2
DRT
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I think the mind can be trained to do what we need to do to be successful.

Gary
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:52 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
I think the mind can be trained to do what we need to do to be successful.

Gary
Agree.

And, that training can lead to doing it so quickly, that it appears to be instinctive.

Rick
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:13 AM   #4
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I just autopilot anymore donít really care enough to dissect anymore. Iím proficient thatís good enough. I used to look deeper and try to perfect and that lead to target panic. Now I just enjoy the sport and leave the thinking for those that want to walk that path.


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Old 09-29-2018, 10:07 AM   #5
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I just use the force!! Over thinking it hurts my head.


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Old 09-29-2018, 11:17 AM   #6
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That's really the definition of instinctive. Response without calculated thought. I believe I understand the inference you are trying to make. I somewhat agree. But there is still a difference.

Gary
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Old 09-29-2018, 11:20 AM   #7
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Target panic is created by lack of control in your state of mind,
which is usually rooted in a lack of confidence in what you are doing,
in both your ability, and your method.

I've suffered it. Still do occasionally, but my handle on & control of it
come in having confidence in my method/methods, which in turn give me confidence in myself.

Control your mind, control the panic.

It really is that simple.

Rick
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Old 09-29-2018, 11:41 AM   #8
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Never understood "target panic". I've choked before. In shoot offs during competition or when I was young and buck fever gripped me.
But it only took me a few times of losing because I was not focused to understand what to do differently.

Gary
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Old 09-29-2018, 11:51 AM   #9
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I wonít argue what target panic is but I will tell you it is not the same for everyone


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Old 09-29-2018, 11:53 AM   #10
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I hope I don't get it.

Gary
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Old 09-29-2018, 11:54 AM   #11
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I have always said I shoot "gapstinctive". I am so adamant that I'm not an instinctive shooter, that my shot process has a whole word devoted to aiming! But I tried eyeballing my point the other day, just to see what my gaps are. It was scary... I started shooting 2+ feet high and all over the place!

Now, I know I must be setting a reference with SOMETHING in my sight picture, but now I couldn't begin to guess what. I don't *think* it's my arrow tip... doesn't mean that's true, but I don't think it's the tip.

So, in summary, I have a "soft" point of aim, that I can't define in meaningful terms, nor approximate with any semblance of accuracy when I try to look at my bow, or the arrow tip to aim. What do you call that? All I know is when I focus on the dot at the other end, and pull through the shot, the arrow gets where it's supposed to be.

**but... dang it! I must be aiming with some frame of reference! Maybe the general line of the arrow in my peripheral vision? I dunno. If I think about it too much, I shoot lousy.

*** Also, I aim slowly, and deliberately. Not what I think of when I think of instinctive/snap shooters...
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Old 09-29-2018, 12:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
Target panic is created by lack of control in your state of mind,
which is usually rooted in a lack of confidence in what you are doing,
in both your ability, and your method.

I've suffered it. Still do occasionally, but my handle on & control of it
come in having confidence in my method/methods, which in turn give me confidence in myself.

Control your mind, control the panic.

It really is that simple.

Rick
I 100% agree with this!

I had to learn the blueprint for my perfect shot PROCESS, and learn to trust that the PROCESS would get me out of any shooting troubles I encounter. That was the cure for target panic. I changed the definition of a successful shot from where the arrow hit, to executing my process flawlessly.
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Old 09-29-2018, 04:36 PM   #13
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Ive been thinking about this alot lately when I was shooting my Yukon. Ive been told from one killer that he has to cant the bow to see the target with the string eye. I noticed that at various short yardages I had to have both eyes open to see where the arrow was going to hit because the point of impact was behind the limb...with the bow held vertically. As I moved farther...the point of impact moved down... closer to the grip and therefore from behind the limbs to the riser cutout and I could see the point of impact with my string eye. I wink my non string eye to focus the string eye down the shaft and correct elevation... but cannot do this for certain short yardages on certain bows. Ive developed instinctive bracketing aiming zones using my riser as reference. For me with the Yukon...point blank was 17 yard mark. 3 yards was 13 yard mark. I could see point of impact for those four zones using one eye. Between 5 and 9 yards...ish... I require a binocular overlap.

So...I was wondering...Can an instinctive shooter shoot with just one eye?
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Old 09-29-2018, 05:33 PM   #14
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Y'all are making my head hurt.

I don't want to know too much about where my arrow shaft or tip are when I'm at full draw. I just want to feel a solid anchor and solid bow hand, then bore a hole with visual focus at the spot I want the arrow to hit like I'm Superman with laser vision. I would label this method "instinctive."

Now, this is if what I'm shooting at is between about 10 and 18 yards. Beyond that, I may look slightly high or even glance at arrow and back to target to gain a little awareness -- especially from 20 to 30 yards. Over 30, I'm referencing a buckle on my armguard or bowhand knuckle. But know that these shots over, say 25, would be most-likely limited to practice targets rather than deer. These distances requiring more awareness of arrow elevation fall into a kind of gray area between "instinctive" and "gap" -- what Malachai calls "gapstinctive". Yet, I still think that if I practiced more at the greater yardages, it could become ingrained as straight "instinctive."

There is another factor, as well. For me, with the heavy arrows I use, the elevation required for longer distances actually raises the bowhand to the point of obscuring or blocking the target. I suppose shooting really long ranges would just require lowering the anchor point to chin or even chest. Long distance shooting is a little irrelevant to me, though, because it's mostly pointless to shoot hunting weight arrows way beyond any conceivable distance at which one would take a hunting shot.

The reason to DO it would be to fine tune form, where mistakes are amplified -- leading to hunting-range shots feeling easy and automatic. But as for really long-range shooting...that's what they have Olympic rigs and light arrows for: to shoot targets out to 70 meters.

Last edited by tradtiger; 09-29-2018 at 06:30 PM. Reason: edit: change "make" a hunting shot to "take" a ....
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Old 09-29-2018, 05:54 PM   #15
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Not to hijack the thread but curious … for those how shoot without consciously aiming (my definition of instinctive), how often do you practice?
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Old 09-29-2018, 06:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awry View Post
Not to hijack the thread but curious Ö for those how shoot without consciously aiming (my definition of instinctive), how often do you practice?
Valid question.

Try for at least four days a week. Not always a ton of arrows -- might be a 10, might be 100. Depends what's coming up.
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tradtiger View Post
Valid question.

Try for at least four days a week. Not always a ton of arrows -- might be a 10, might be 100. Depends what's coming up.
And quit when you get tired, or start falling apart.
The worst thing anyone can do for their shooting is shoot until they have to end on a stretch of sour shots.

The absolute best time to stop a session is when you are feeling accomplished.

Rick
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:29 PM   #18
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Try to end on a good shot!
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:55 PM   #19
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Every day I can. 4,5,6,7 days a week. Even if only a half dozen arrows

Gary
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Old 09-29-2018, 11:28 PM   #20
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I've shot gap for a lot of years but I don't consciously think about the gap. The point just goes to the right gap...................instinctively.
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Old 09-30-2018, 12:07 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco View Post
I've shot gap for a lot of years but I don't consciously think about the gap. The point just goes to the right gap...................instinctively.
"...... instinctively"

Almost spewed beer on keyboard....

Kinda what I was figuring I would do if I shot longer distance shots a whole lot just to get "instinctive" on what those long shots looked like and got those "looks" locked unconsciously into the brain. Except, instead of arrow point, it might be knuckle or armguard buckle, etc. But, honestly, none of us trad guys is fixing to shoot something 55 yards out, are we? Fred Bear, maybe.
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Old 09-30-2018, 06:51 AM   #22
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That's where the wheels come off for me. Past 25 yards or so.

Gary
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Old 10-03-2018, 09:59 AM   #23
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Pass the Advil please.
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Old 10-03-2018, 10:01 AM   #24
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Subconscious vs conscious. That is really all it is. You are always aiming... the question is do you want your conscious to be in control or are you okay with letting your subconscious take over and deal with the pitfalls that come from that.

By the way, either way, you can end up with target panic. The difference between the two methods is how you deal with and "cure" the panic.
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Old 10-03-2018, 11:01 AM   #25
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Let me expound a little on what I said above regarding target panic.

When I hear my buddies talk about their bouts with target panic, I have been a little confused not about how they could just "let go" before they were ready, but how that was not controllable.

See, I have let go before I was ready. Primarily because I was never ready or gonna be ready. But I let go anyway out of frustration... or maybe on the belief that the result would be okay AND that would boost my confidence and realize I was worrying for no reason. But... rarely did that actually happen. Instead, I'd need to take a break or... break down my shot cycle and figure out why I wasn't hitting where I wanted to. If I couldn't figure it out, I'd rule it out as physical fatigue or mental fatigue and just take a break (as in stop shooting, try again tomorrow.) There were stretches where my confidence was really in the dumps and it just made matters worse... but I never ever let go of a shot uncontrollably.

But it dawned on me that for the most part, most of my sequence is conscious and not automatic and subconscious. There are parts I definitely don't give any thought. One of my biggest faults is that I don't think about follow-through and that is where a lot of the physical fatigue is hard to see... dropping the bow arm or plucking the string, etc. But... the trigger for all that is always a conscious event. And the check point is when I am aiming. I have to be okay with the shot before it happens. Because of this pause and check, I can always stop it if I want to... again, I've been in "panic" situations where I just let go anyways because it isn't gonna get better... I doubt the sight picture and or what is about to happen. But I can stop the release. (I can't always improve my confidence as quickly.)

I don't ever say in that situation "I have target panic". Although in reality, I believe that is exactly what I have. A lack of confidence. The difference is I know it... and since my whole sequence isn't automatic, I can acknowledge the issue and have a path to move forward (not an easy path... but a path.)

I could imagine that if I relied on subconscious for everything, including the trigger that says it is okay to shoot... I could fall into a scenario where those confidence/panic events take over and I am out of control.

I am NOT going to say that conscious shooting is better than subconscious shooting. I think there are definite tradeoffs. I personally believe that it is easier to panic when you are having to think through the shot... and you can insert doubt really easily. When you don't worry about it, there is less opportunity to overthink it. I think that is a plus. But on the flip side, when you don't put any thought into it... you open yourself up to getting out of control. Tons of folks are better archers than me that shoot both ways... so again, one isn't "better", but...I do think you have to pick your poison at some point and it will boil down to personal preference.

Last edited by SwampRabbit; 10-03-2018 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 10-04-2018, 11:39 AM   #26
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I think the force is just so strong in me that the arrow goes where my mind wills it to go. But for some reason every now and then it'll will one into the privacy fence.
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Old 10-04-2018, 12:21 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRM_95 View Post
I think the force is just so strong in me that the arrow goes where my mind wills it to go. But for some reason every now and then it'll will one into the privacy fence.
who you thinking about that lives on the other side of that fence?
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Old 10-04-2018, 06:24 PM   #28
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That's why I have big horse stall mat behind the target. Sometimes my force has ADD.

Gary
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Old 10-09-2018, 09:16 PM   #29
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Quote:
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That's why I have big horse stall mat behind the target. Sometimes my force has ADD.

Gary
LOL!!! *See the target...... draw.......... anchor....... SQUIRREL!!!!! FWWIIIPPP!* "Dang it."



Richard.
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