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Old 11-16-2021, 07:17 PM   #1
freerhunter16
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Default 3000fps out of 20”bbl?

Starting to think about my next custom rig. I currently have an APR in 280ai with a 25” tube. Love the gun, just can’t get used to the length with my can on. So I am wanting something a little shorter to run my suppressor on. I am really wanting 3000fps out of a 20” tube with a 130-160 gr bullet. Would possibly step up to 22” but that would be the max. I don’t reload myself, but usually use Copper Creek or Hendershots to do load development and loading for me. I am thinking about a couple of options:

300wsm with a 150gr.

7 SAUM with a 140gr

Possibly the 6.8 Western with a 140-150.

Anybody run any of these out of a 20” tube? I know they will not be very efficient but not too concerned about that. Any other suggestions I should look at?

I know a 7-08/.308 probably makes the most sense here, but really wanting a little more horsepower.
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Old 11-16-2021, 07:26 PM   #2
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I'm thinking of doing this exact same thing. I've got a 6.5 PRC Tikka with a WTO switchlug...I'm prolly gonna go the 300 WSM route with 150 grain Accubonds...that should get me over the 3,000 fps threshold
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Old 11-16-2021, 07:31 PM   #3
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Why are you stuck on 3000 fps? Are you shooting super long range? I kill a lot of animals with a 6.5 with 140-143 grain bullets at 500 to 600 yards. 2800 fps.
Just curious.
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Old 11-16-2021, 07:34 PM   #4
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The 7mm Rem Ultramag shows loads that are slightly over 3500 fps. with a 130 grain bullet. In a 24 inch barrel. Given the 100 fps. loss per inch rule, and the likelihood that that cartridge would lose a little more than 100 fps. per inch, that one might make it. Not many rounds are going to make that requirement. I didn't look to see what the 300 ultramag might do. Another one that might make it would be the .30/378. Lots of muzzle blast, not really efficient and abbreviated barrel life....With a 22 inch barrel, it would be lots easier. You could use cartridges that are more efficient, and lose less fps. per inch. .300 WSM would probably make it, along with the .300 win mag, maybe 7mm WSM.

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Old 11-16-2021, 07:34 PM   #5
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.300 RCM? Suppose to be efficient in a short tube
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Old 11-16-2021, 08:30 PM   #6
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I know it's not 3k fps, but I really like the idea of the 7 SAUM pushing 180's around the 2,800 fps range in short barrel rigs. They'll hang with the energy of the faster 140s for the first couple hundred yards, then surpass them as range increases. They also buy you some forgiveness in the wind, which is never a bad thing. Its just hard to find a more versatile combo in the 20"-22" range that packs that much punch but maintains it's "shootability" and manners.
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Old 11-16-2021, 08:43 PM   #7
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6.5 Sherman short, 3000fps with a 20’ barrel
Or
7 SAUM seems to have a reputation for not giving up too much velocity out of short barrels, and is easy to hand load for.

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Old 11-16-2021, 08:45 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stick1 View Post
I know it's not 3k fps, but I really like the idea of the 7 SAUM pushing 180's around the 2,800 fps range in short barrel rigs. They'll hang with the energy of the faster 140s for the first couple hundred yards, then surpass them as range increases. They also buy you some forgiveness in the wind, which is never a bad thing. Its just hard to find a more versatile combo in the 20"-22" range that packs that much punch but maintains it's "shootability" and manners.
I’d listen to this logic if’n I were y’all.
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Old 11-16-2021, 08:46 PM   #9
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I'm a novice at this but does a suppressor add any velocity to it? I forgot to add in my post that I would like to use one if I built a 20" cannon
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Old 11-16-2021, 09:49 PM   #10
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i wont say what the charge was but i have hit 3174 out of a 30-06 with a 22" tube,,and 150 gr ,,, i did back it down to a very nice 3050 fps cutting 7/16" groups at 100 yards with only a 7x scope.... dont rule out the old warhorse, especially if you put a little free bore in the barrel,,, i did not have any in mine

it's usually about 50 fps per inch within a certain length. 100 fps is a little extreme for 1" barrel length but some cartridges and powders might do it
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Old 11-17-2021, 07:20 AM   #11
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My APR 22" 260ai is pushing 3k fps with Barnes 127 LRX bullets.
I'm still in load development, but it has very mild recoil with my can on it.
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Old 11-17-2021, 10:03 AM   #12
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The short fat cases like the 300WSM have the most efficient powder burn and should do the best in short barrel guns since they usually use slightly faster burn rate powders than long cases. W760 and H414 are what I load all my short magnums with and they all will exceed 3000 fps with mid range heavies 140, 165 and 200 gr.
7mmWSM, 300WSM and 338WSM. Barrel lengths are 20", 22" and 26" respectively.
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Old 11-17-2021, 10:09 AM   #13
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7mm RUM
Sherman Max
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Old 11-17-2021, 10:40 AM   #14
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Run ballistics on the difference in 2800 and 3000 FPS. The amount of barrel life loss pushing that hard to achieve that in a short barrel isn’t worth it in my opinion. I’m running a 24” prc and a 22” 6 creed. Both with a dead air nomad. I’m not hotrodding either of them. You’d be surprised how little difference there is. Now say comparing a 140 6.5 Berger at 2900 and a 180 284 Berger at 3075? Yes. Big gains .

Don’t get too wrapped up in the speed. It’s important. But not to the point of torching barrels right and left.

I agree on the 300 WSM and the 7 SAUM being what you seek.
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Old 11-17-2021, 10:48 AM   #15
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I have a 700 Ti in 7 SAUM and am getting 3045 with 140 grain TTSX's and a 24" tube. Using 59.0 of IMR 4350/Fed 215. I've tried getting more speed out of mine, but keep running into pressure issues.

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Old 11-17-2021, 11:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muzzlebrake View Post
The short fat cases like the 300WSM have the most efficient powder burn and should do the best in short barrel guns since they usually use slightly faster burn rate powders than long cases. W760 and H414 are what I load all my short magnums with and they all will exceed 3000 fps with mid range heavies 140, 165 and 200 gr.
7mmWSM, 300WSM and 338WSM. Barrel lengths are 20", 22" and 26" respectively.
Do you mind posting what you're getting out of your 300 WSM?
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Old 11-17-2021, 12:53 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by corps2010 View Post
Do you mind posting what you're getting out of your 300 WSM?
My reloads with Barnes TSX 150's a little over 3300 as I recall. Factory ammo Winchester 150 BST is dead on 3250 fps. Haven't ever shot any factory ammo with heavier than 150's. I can load 165 and 168's to the same velocity as factory 150's but I'm really pushing it and flattening primers with a little stickiness on the bolt. I usually load my hunting rounds around 2900-3000 for better accuracy. Best accuracy nodes for the 7mm WSM and 300 WSM are about the same velocity somewhere near 3000 and for the 338WSM somewhere around 2950+. Back when I was working up loads for these I went backwards and started at max velocity and pressure and backed off until I hit the sweet spots. That's the wrong way to do it but then I ain't always been the brightest bulb on the Xmas tree.
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Old 11-17-2021, 01:15 PM   #18
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270WSM will get you there too.

I can get my 150Gr Accubonds to 3100FPS out of a 300SAUM with a 22" barrel.
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Old 11-19-2021, 01:10 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freerhunter16 View Post
Starting to think about my next custom rig. I currently have an APR in 280ai with a 25” tube. Love the gun, just can’t get used to the length with my can on. So I am wanting something a little shorter to run my suppressor on. I am really wanting 3000fps out of a 20” tube with a 130-160 gr bullet. Would possibly step up to 22” but that would be the max. I don’t reload myself, but usually use Copper Creek or Hendershots to do load development and loading for me. I am thinking about a couple of options:

300wsm with a 150gr.

7 SAUM with a 140gr

Possibly the 6.8 Western with a 140-150.

Anybody run any of these out of a 20” tube? I know they will not be very efficient but not too concerned about that. Any other suggestions I should look at?

I know a 7-08/.308 probably makes the most sense here, but really wanting a little more horsepower.
This may be on the bottom end of your criteria, but a 7-08AI is a fun little round. I am getting around 3075 with 120s, have not worked with the 140s yet. According to Kenny Jarrett 3100 is realistic with 120s and 3000 with the 140s.
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Old 11-19-2021, 01:31 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by canny View Post
This may be on the bottom end of your criteria, but a 7-08AI is a fun little round. I am getting around 3075 with 120s, have not worked with the 140s yet. According to Kenny Jarrett 3100 is realistic with 120s and 3000 with the 140s.
In what length barrel? No way you’ll see that in a 20”.
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Old 11-19-2021, 01:48 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by trophy8 View Post
In what length barrel? No way you’ll see that in a 20”.

Yup 20”


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Old 11-19-2021, 01:49 PM   #22
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Yup 20”


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Hmmmm. Will have to look into that
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Old 11-19-2021, 01:51 PM   #23
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Hmmmm. Will have to look into that

I’ve been impressed with the StaBall 6.5 powder in it


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Old 11-19-2021, 01:51 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trophy8 View Post
Run ballistics on the difference in 2800 and 3000 FPS. The amount of barrel life loss pushing that hard to achieve that in a short barrel isn’t worth it in my opinion. I’m running a 24” prc and a 22” 6 creed. Both with a dead air nomad. I’m not hotrodding either of them. You’d be surprised how little difference there is. Now say comparing a 140 6.5 Berger at 2900 and a 180 284 Berger at 3075? Yes. Big gains .

Don’t get too wrapped up in the speed. It’s important. But not to the point of torching barrels right and left.

I agree on the 300 WSM and the 7 SAUM being what you seek.
I’m not a 3000fps or bust mentality. I just like speed lol. I’m really just wanting the most speed I can get out of a 20” tube with a well constructed 140-160gr bullet without being so overbore that it’s obnoxious lol. I don’t necessarily mind a barrel burner, as it would take me a long time to shoot 500+ rounds with this new rig.
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Old 11-19-2021, 01:53 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canny View Post
This may be on the bottom end of your criteria, but a 7-08AI is a fun little round. I am getting around 3075 with 120s, have not worked with the 140s yet. According to Kenny Jarrett 3100 is realistic with 120s and 3000 with the 140s.
This is interesting… 3000 with a 140gr Accubond out of a 20” 7-08AI has my attention. Will need to look into this. Not sure if I can find someone to load that for me or not.
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Old 11-19-2021, 02:10 PM   #26
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Default 3000fps out of 20”bbl?

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Originally Posted by trophy8 View Post
In what length barrel? No way you’ll see that in a 20”.

Don’t be so sure. I showed you the chrono reading of my all factory 20” 308 with 168ABLR.


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Old 11-19-2021, 02:16 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by freerhunter16 View Post
This is interesting… 3000 with a 140gr Accubond out of a 20” 7-08AI has my attention. Will need to look into this. Not sure if I can find someone to load that for me or not.
I'm waiting for the Accubonds so I can work up the same thing. I'm going to play with the 140 Bergers next time I load for it.
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Old 11-19-2021, 02:25 PM   #28
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Can you post up that load and speeds? 7saw with 160s is struggling to get 2900 out of a 26" tube.

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I’ve been impressed with the StaBall 6.5 powder in it


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Old 11-19-2021, 03:06 PM   #29
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Initially, 277 SIG FURY will be offered with the new 150-grain Nosler AccuBond projectile. It's a strong boattail bullet featuring a polymer tip, copper-alloy jacket with a lead-alloy core and a thick heel. They're getting 3,000 FPS from a 16-inch barrel and an additional 30 FPS for every additional inch of barrel.Jan 21, 2021

If it is ever avaiable.
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Old 11-19-2021, 04:41 PM   #30
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Default 3000fps out of 20”bbl?

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Initially, 277 SIG FURY will be offered with the new 150-grain Nosler AccuBond projectile. It's a strong boattail bullet featuring a polymer tip, copper-alloy jacket with a lead-alloy core and a thick heel. They're getting 3,000 FPS from a 16-inch barrel and an additional 30 FPS for every additional inch of barrel.Jan 21, 2021

If it is ever avaiable.

I will reserve complete judgement until it’s actually released en masse but I don’t see this going mainstream.

I’d be surprised if any brass makers show any interest in making it for the reloader market. I don’t see it being cost effective to retool to make a hybrid steel/brass case for a single cartridge and a small market. Obviously somebody is making the cartridge but I would imagine it’s for millions of rounds for the government IF it even gets adopted.


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Old 11-19-2021, 05:28 PM   #31
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Getting as close to 100% case fill and as close to 100% ignition and 100% burn
Before that bullet exits the barrel is the whole key. Doing all that with the highest chamber pressure the barrel can stand and the highest pressure the case can stand is the trick. Some of these new powders are pretty good at getting higher velocities than we reloaders were used to back when. The CFE powders and StaBall and a few of the extreme propellants are interesting and more data is coming out now. Takes some work but that's the fun of it.
Almost all of these modern wildcat bench cartridges are in the short magnum design category for a reason. More efficient powder burn. I suspect that choosing a bullet of the weight you want and the shortest bearing surface on the lands is going to be the fastest MV. May not be the most accurate long range as the BC is not going to be as high as the longer surface bullets like Berger and the ELD's. I always got higher velocities with the Moly coated Nosler ballistic silvertips. Thick heavy base and shorter bearing surface. And then there's the Barnes bullets with all those grooves reducing bearing surface. They are generally even faster for me than Noslers.

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Old 11-19-2021, 06:02 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
Don’t be so sure. I showed you the chrono reading of my all factory 20” 308 with 168ABLR.


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Sketchy *** powder load. I loaded those crazy things. Powder crunches harder than your old knees
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Old 11-24-2021, 04:54 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbqfan5909 View Post
Can you post up that load and speeds? 7saw with 160s is struggling to get 2900 out of a 26" tube.


Here it is, now take into consideration a few things. First this was with a 120g bullet and a 24” barrel (it’s now been cut to 20”). As you can see I was getting mid 3200 FPS before any pressure signs. I was getting right around 3300+ when I started to see extractor marks. I have no doubt that with this load and the now 20” barrel that I can still be in the 3100s which would put a 140g at around 3000fps or a little over.

Disclaimer: This load was developed very carefully for my specific gun and as always you should do your own development and not rely on this information.


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Old 11-25-2021, 09:49 AM   #34
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Understand your math with losing 50fps per inch of barrel. But, you may have a lot of unburnt powder, coming in considerably under the 3k mark. Wouldn’t doubt your having to find a new powder to hit that 3k.


Quote:
Originally Posted by canny View Post

Here it is, now take into consideration a few things. First this was with a 120g bullet and a 24” barrel (it’s now been cut to 20”). As you can see I was getting mid 3200 FPS before any pressure signs. I was getting right around 3300+ when I started to see extractor marks. I have no doubt that with this load and the now 20” barrel that I can still be in the 3100s which would put a 140g at around 3000fps or a little over.

Disclaimer: This load was developed very carefully for my specific gun and as always you should do your own development and not rely on this information.


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Old 11-25-2021, 10:44 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by bbqfan5909 View Post
Understand your math with losing 50fps per inch of barrel. But, you may have a lot of unburnt powder, coming in considerably under the 3k mark. Wouldn’t doubt your having to find a new powder to hit that 3k.

We will see, I have some H4350 and RL17 on hand to try if needed, and also the 50fps is just a general average there are several other variables that influence that. I figure this configuration around the 35fps/inch.


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Old 11-25-2021, 10:55 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stick1 View Post
I know it's not 3k fps, but I really like the idea of the 7 SAUM pushing 180's around the 2,800 fps range in short barrel rigs. They'll hang with the energy of the faster 140s for the first couple hundred yards, then surpass them as range increases. They also buy you some forgiveness in the wind, which is never a bad thing. Its just hard to find a more versatile combo in the 20"-22" range that packs that much punch but maintains it's "shootability" and manners.
This is what I built this year.

I'm running 2775 with minimal load development for 180s over H1k. Ran it to 2825 with no pressure signs but at 100% case capacity. I'm sure there's more speed with other powders but I'm a hodgedon extreme lover.

Next to no recoil and very easy to tune is a great combo. Took my first deer with it last week, a wt doe at 450.

I'd say 140-150s would hit 3k but wouldn't gain much over the 180s other than being flatter to 300.

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Last edited by Slick8; 11-25-2021 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 11-28-2021, 11:41 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Slick8 View Post
This is what I built this year.

I'm running 2775 with minimal load development for 180s over H1k. Ran it to 2825 with no pressure signs but at 100% case capacity. I'm sure there's more speed with other powders but I'm a hodgedon extreme lover.

Next to no recoil and very easy to tune is a great combo. Took my first deer with it last week, a wt doe at 450.

I'd say 140-150s would hit 3k but wouldn't gain much over the 180s other than being flatter to 300.

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What barrel length?
Did you build on a long or short action?

Last edited by Silentnight; 11-28-2021 at 11:43 PM.
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