Reply
Go Back   TexasBowhunter.com Community Discussion Forums > Topics > Equipment and Tuning
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-22-2021, 09:41 PM   #1
Jboehle21
Four Point
 
Jboehle21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Hondo
Hunt In: Medina county
Default Extreme f.o.c or heavy arrow

Not looking to start an argument and I’m sure this has been discussed but is there a perfect middle ground to building an arrow that has good weight up front that will still allow me to reach out to long ranges while I’m practicing. I’ve gone down the YouTube rabbit hole watching videos from ranch fairy to Josh bowmar and it’s got me itching to build some custom arrows
Jboehle21 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-22-2021, 09:48 PM   #2
WillowCity2506
Four Point
 
WillowCity2506's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Orange
Hunt In: Willow City Loop
Default

I built a few Heavy arrows this spring, over 600 grains with 200 grain heads. Was shooting a Diamond Carbon Cure 30/70, bow shot them well out to 40-50 yards but had a quite a bit of ark on the arrow at that distance. Pin gap was ridiculous at. IDK what the arrow speed was but can't imagine it was much over 220. I was amped up, drank the kool aid and was excited to give it a shot... then I bailed and bought a V3. Just ordered Easton Hexx arrows and ethics archery inserts and impact collars. Gonna shoot a 125-150 grain head and have arrow weight at 480-500. This seems to me a more reasonable set up. I don't make hunting shots past 35-40 but practice out to 55-60. Will have more info on 500 grain set up in week or so when i shoot through chrono with new arrows.
WillowCity2506 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-22-2021, 09:48 PM   #3
CastAndBlast
Pope & Young
 
CastAndBlast's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Hunt In: Texas
Default Extreme f.o.c or heavy arrow

.
CastAndBlast is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-22-2021, 09:58 PM   #4
Jboehle21
Four Point
 
Jboehle21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Hondo
Hunt In: Medina county
Default

Thanks for the info a friend of mine has a fieldpoint test kit that goes up to 200 grains I might play around with it and see what happens
Jboehle21 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-22-2021, 10:03 PM   #5
HighwayHunter
Ten Point
 
HighwayHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Default

What’s your draw length, draw weight and what do you plan on hunting


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
HighwayHunter is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-22-2021, 10:20 PM   #6
critter69
Pope & Young
 
critter69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Colorado
Hunt In: CO and Texas when I can
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowCity2506 View Post
I built a few Heavy arrows this spring, over 600 grains with 200 grain heads. Was shooting a Diamond Carbon Cure 30/70, bow shot them well out to 40-50 yards but had a quite a bit of ark on the arrow at that distance. Pin gap was ridiculous at. IDK what the arrow speed was but can't imagine it was much over 220. I was amped up, drank the kool aid and was excited to give it a shot... then I bailed and bought a V3. Just ordered Easton Hexx arrows and ethics archery inserts and impact collars. Gonna shoot a 125-150 grain head and have arrow weight at 480-500. This seems to me a more reasonable set up. I don't make hunting shots past 35-40 but practice out to 55-60. Will have more info on 500 grain set up in week or so when i shoot through chrono with new arrows.
Totally agree, I tried very light to very heavy ( 1500 taw) and find 500ish, to work very very well.
critter69 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-23-2021, 06:39 AM   #7
Duckologist
Ten Point
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: SW Louisiana
Default

I am 28" draw shooting 60lbs and am shooting a 530gr arrow at between 18-19% FOC. The zip right through deer and they act like they don't even know what happened. Take only a few steps and stand there until they fall over.
Duckologist is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-23-2021, 03:17 PM   #8
muddyfuzzy
Pope & Young
 
muddyfuzzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: gulf coast
Hunt In: Parts Unknown
Default

It is relatively easy to build a 500-550 grain arrow with high FOC (16-18%), I would consider that the “sweet spot” for NA big game bowhunting….most of what I do falls within that range and guys have great success in the field.


muddyfuzzy is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-23-2021, 05:43 PM   #9
IkemanTX
Ten Point
 
IkemanTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Greater DFW
Default

I went with extreme FOC based on Dr Ashby’s research.

710 grains, 25.4% FOC
IkemanTX is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-23-2021, 07:34 PM   #10
BW96
Ten Point
 
BW96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Tyler
Hunt In: Public and wood county
Default

I started building my own last year. I'm middle of the road. Easton hexx 260, 75gr brass insert, 125gr broadhead. Total arrow weight of 505gr. I tell you what, the penetration is incredible. I watched some ranch fairy videos and decided to bare shaft and nock tune. That makes such a big difference in accuracy its crazy. As long as I do my part, broadheads and field points will touch at 60yards.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
BW96 is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-23-2021, 08:08 PM   #11
WillowCity2506
Four Point
 
WillowCity2506's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Orange
Hunt In: Willow City Loop
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BW96 View Post
I started building my own last year. I'm middle of the road. Easton hexx 260, 75gr brass insert, 125gr broadhead. Total arrow weight of 505gr. I tell you what, the penetration is incredible. I watched some ranch fairy videos and decided to bare shaft and nock tune. That makes such a big difference in accuracy its crazy. As long as I do my part, broadheads and field points will touch at 60yards.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
How do you like Hexx arrows? Just purchased a dozen and will be setting them up as soon as they come in. Was going to go with ethics archery insert and collars. If I go with a 125 head I'll come in around 505. So basically the same arrow, I'll just have a collar instead of heavier insert.
WillowCity2506 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-23-2021, 11:30 PM   #12
muddyfuzzy
Pope & Young
 
muddyfuzzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: gulf coast
Hunt In: Parts Unknown
Default Extreme f.o.c or heavy arrow

If you are committed to running weight forward you may look at running the majority of the weight in the tip rather than insert weight. The total arrow weight will be the same but the FOC will always be a little higher. If I had the choice a 175 grain head with a 25 grain insert or a 125 grain head with 75 grains of insert weight the former gets the nod every time. It’s a little different situation is somebody is already running a certain weight head they like in 100 or 125 but for a new build the best practice is building it at the tip.


muddyfuzzy is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-23-2021, 11:37 PM   #13
Sleepy
Pope & Young
 
Sleepy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tyler, TX
Hunt In: Camp County, Rusk County, Smith County, Kansas
Default

450-500 with 18-22% FOC is a pretty good sweet spot as far as trajectory and momentum.
Sleepy is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-24-2021, 01:14 AM   #14
ctom87
Ten Point
 
ctom87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Fort Worth
Hunt In: Searching.
Default

I was like my setup... if I remember correctly 623 gr right around 16% foc with a 125 gr annihilator broadhead on it. I did chrono it at 230 fps, 70#, 28" draw, and the bow was rated for 340. I know it will never hit that speed but I guess all that weight and foc still flying at only a 33% decrease of the fastest possible is worth it to me.

To me the bow and the arrow each have a job to do. The bow's job is to send something down range as fast as possible and the arrows job is to hit it with as much force as possible. That's done by having the bow's speed compliment the arrows weight. Just my theory.

Last edited by ctom87; 06-24-2021 at 01:16 AM.
ctom87 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-24-2021, 05:48 AM   #15
Barrett
Ten Point
 
Barrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Apache Shores
Hunt In: Tarpley
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctom87 View Post
I was like my setup... if I remember correctly 623 gr right around 16% foc with a 125 gr annihilator broadhead on it. I did chrono it at 230 fps, 70#, 28" draw, and the bow was rated for 340. I know it will never hit that speed but I guess all that weight and foc still flying at only a 33% decrease of the fastest possible is worth it to me.

To me the bow and the arrow each have a job to do. The bow's job is to send something down range as fast as possible and the arrows job is to hit it with as much force as possible. That's done by having the bow's speed compliment the arrows weight. Just my theory.
I like the theory! Makes sense to me.
Barrett is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-24-2021, 11:36 AM   #16
MnM
Eight Point
 
MnM's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Palestine
Hunt In: Anderson Co.
Default

I was shooting 523 grains with 20% FOC. Complete pass through on deer was not a problem. Did not get a complete pass through on hogs. Going to experiment with 650 grains and 23% FOC.
MnM is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-24-2021, 01:03 PM   #17
BW96
Ten Point
 
BW96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Tyler
Hunt In: Public and wood county
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowCity2506 View Post
How do you like Hexx arrows? Just purchased a dozen and will be setting them up as soon as they come in. Was going to go with ethics archery insert and collars. If I go with a 125 head I'll come in around 505. So basically the same arrow, I'll just have a collar instead of heavier insert.
They are tough and straight. I don't have any complaints. I just ordered 12 more. Way tougher than the ever popular FMJ. Hate those arrows with a passion.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
BW96 is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-24-2021, 01:04 PM   #18
BW96
Ten Point
 
BW96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Tyler
Hunt In: Public and wood county
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by muddyfuzzy View Post
If you are committed to running weight forward you may look at running the majority of the weight in the tip rather than insert weight. The total arrow weight will be the same but the FOC will always be a little higher. If I had the choice a 175 grain head with a 25 grain insert or a 125 grain head with 75 grains of insert weight the former gets the nod every time. It’s a little different situation is somebody is already running a certain weight head they like in 100 or 125 but for a new build the best practice is building it at the tip.


I agree with this, but I run 75gr insert and 125gr head because of the availability and selection of 125gr broadheads.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
BW96 is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-24-2021, 01:18 PM   #19
Jboehle21
Four Point
 
Jboehle21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Hondo
Hunt In: Medina county
Default

So I was messing around with some cheap gold tip hunters I had around the house and installed 100grn inserts then played around with point weight it’s crazy how 25grains plus or minus can make a big difference
Jboehle21 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-30-2021, 12:12 PM   #20
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

The post may be dead, so I may be wasting my time.

I have been a big advocate of the Ashby setups for years. But I started getting into the physics of archery, and I no longer preach ashby.

I do still look at some of what he did.

First, we look at what you have now. Does it work? Yes, then why change. No real benefit. Does it not work? Why not? Is it the broadhead or arrow weight? Broadhead should always be looked at first. Weight is last.?

FOC is first about flight. You need to make sure you have enough to control the arrow. I recommend 15% min if shooting fixed broadheads. Does it hurt to have more? No, but over 25%, you can start to see arrow stabilization go bad. It would help if you learned to control rear drag when this happens. most people won't see this as they very seldom build higher than 25%

FOC for penetration. There is no proof that FOC improves penetration on a compound bow shooting correct spine. No testing has been done up to this date.

Building your arrows is always fun. It allows you to learn about dynamic reactions. When you learn dynamic reaction, tuning becomes easier.
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-30-2021, 01:51 PM   #21
kingranch
Ten Point
 
kingranch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: lakeway
Default

Go with a stiff spine like 300 and the heaviest head/insert you can to make right at 500ish
You're welcome
kingranch is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-30-2021, 02:05 PM   #22
Heath
Pope & Young
 
Heath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Antonio
Hunt In: Cool places with Cool people
Default

I had MuddyFuzzy build me some arrows right at 500 and I was really pleased with how they flew. I shot them out to 50 yards this past weekend and was getting some great penetration through the target at the longer distances.
Heath is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-01-2021, 09:34 PM   #23
Duckologist
Ten Point
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: SW Louisiana
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by enewman View Post

FOC for penetration. There is no proof that FOC improves penetration on a compound bow shooting correct spine. No testing has been done up to this date.
More FOC = more mass. If u take the same arrow with the same broadhead but put a 100 grain insert instead of a 25 grain insert you have more FOC and more mass. The more mass, the more penetration. Stand at 20 yards and choose the projectile you'd want to be hit with. A ping pong ball or a golf ball with a starting speed of 75mph. The lighter the projectile the quicker it slows down.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Duckologist is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-01-2021, 09:41 PM   #24
Bigdaddy
Ten Point
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: TEXAS
Default

I agree foc is important but speed kills. After 40 yards the arrow is so slow and if you are hunting something 50 plus yards your chances go way down.
Bigdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-02-2021, 05:57 AM   #25
Throwin Darts
Pope & Young
 
Throwin Darts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Aledo
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdaddy View Post
I agree foc is important but speed kills. After 40 yards the arrow is so slow and if you are hunting something 50 plus yards your chances go way down.

Speed only kills on the highway
Throwin Darts is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-02-2021, 06:40 AM   #26
Duckologist
Ten Point
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: SW Louisiana
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdaddy View Post
I agree foc is important but speed kills. After 40 yards the arrow is so slow and if you are hunting something 50 plus yards your chances go way down.
Speed where? Speed leaving the bow or speed at the target? Lighter projectiles slow down faster than heavier projectiles. Again, would you rather be hit by a ping pong ball or a golf ball that started out at 75mph and you were 20 yards away? Or how about this, you stand 20 yards away and let me throw either one at you as hard as I can. It's likely the ping pong ball won't even reach you but I'll nail you with the golf ball. Speed does not kill, momentum kills
Duckologist is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-02-2021, 06:45 AM   #27
JayB
Ten Point
 
JayB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Rowlett
Hunt In: Cass County
Default

There is a great video/podcast that came out this week from The Hunting Public guys talking with a Hypersonic Dynamics scientist. Look it up on YouTube.

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk
JayB is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-02-2021, 07:49 AM   #28
Low Fence
Pope & Young
 
Low Fence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Quitman, Tx.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckologist View Post
Speed where? Speed leaving the bow or speed at the target? Lighter projectiles slow down faster than heavier projectiles. Again, would you rather be hit by a ping pong ball or a golf ball that started out at 75mph and you were 20 yards away? Or how about this, you stand 20 yards away and let me throw either one at you as hard as I can. It's likely the ping pong ball won't even reach you but I'll nail you with the golf ball. Speed does not kill, momentum kills
I can agree with some of the heavy “stuff” in certain situations with certain animals…. But arrow weight comparison using golf balls vs ping pong ball and motorcycle vs train is laughable

Closer would be same pitcher throwing an 11” softball or a 12” softball… speed difference is minimum but measurable. Ke and momentum are measurable in a math equation but that’s about it

Shoot what flys best and fits your requirements
Low Fence is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-02-2021, 08:35 AM   #29
Duckologist
Ten Point
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: SW Louisiana
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Fence View Post

Closer would be same pitcher throwing an 11” softball or a 12” softball… speed difference is minimum but measurable. Ke and momentum are measurable in a math equation but that’s about it

Shoot what flys best and fits your requirements
Mass is a measure of weight, not inches(softballs). So a 300gr arrow vs a 600gr arrow is more in line with a ping pong ball vs a golf ball. A math equation is true and math and physics are real. What flys the best is a whole different ball of wax. I am not discussing how to tune or how to make something fly the best. I am discussing what happens when the arrow gets to the target and how best to get the arrow through the target. So laugh it up I reckon.
Duckologist is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-02-2021, 08:50 AM   #30
Low Fence
Pope & Young
 
Low Fence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Quitman, Tx.
Default

… you missed it

Most are so passionate there is only one way, they don’t see the value to balance

I dodnt use a 11” vs 12” to compare length…. It’s a weight difference that IS MEASURABLE…..but difference in performance isn’t overwhelming

Go stand at 60….70 yards and take shots from a 700gr vs a 300gr arrow… I don’t recommended either, but reality is I wouldn’t have to achieve 3” penetration to have lethal effects. And the “ping pong ball” arrow while on paper is not as effective…. Dead is dead
Low Fence is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-02-2021, 09:02 AM   #31
wdtorque
Ten Point
 
wdtorque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Default

I like Hexx arrows. My total arrow weight is 480 grains or so, happy with flight and penetration. My biggest issue is shooting game too high, but that ain't the bow or arrows fault.
wdtorque is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-02-2021, 09:51 AM   #32
Duckologist
Ten Point
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: SW Louisiana
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Fence View Post

I dodnt use a 11” vs 12” to compare length…. It’s a weight difference that IS MEASURABLE…..but difference in performance isn’t overwhelming
I know it's not a length thing. I know it's a weight difference and that is what I am talking about. MASS. I understand an 11" ball weighs nearly the same as a 12". I am saying a 550 grain arrow is quite a bit of a difference over a 350 grain arrow. I will agree that dead is dead with either arrow IF you can get the deer to never move and you can hit the heart 100% of the time. That just isn't real world though. Both of those arrows will leave the bow with the same speed, the lighter arrow will slow down faster, that's a fact. The heavier arrow will carry more momentum at the target vs the lighter arrow, that's also a fact. The arrow carrying more momentum will penetrate further than the arrow carrying less momentum, also fact. Physics. When the animal moves and my shot placement ends up not exactly where I intended, I want some momentum to carry my arrow through the animal.
Duckologist is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-02-2021, 12:59 PM   #33
Duckologist
Ten Point
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: SW Louisiana
Default

Interesting Data

Duckologist is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-02-2021, 06:44 PM   #34
Beargrasstx
Ten Point
 
Beargrasstx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Richmond
Hunt In: Anywhere I get permission or invited; public land, western states
Default

The Hunting Public and Ranch Fairy

Don't forget this video that was done before that explains the physics from a rocket engineer and they actually test KE on several arrows and weights

Rockets, Missiles, Arrows and Bowhunting
https://youtu.be/fQUdywlHVEk

Last edited by Beargrasstx; 07-02-2021 at 06:52 PM.
Beargrasstx is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 11:11 AM   #35
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckologist View Post
More FOC = more mass. If u take the same arrow with the same broadhead but put a 100 grain insert instead of a 25 grain insert you have more FOC and more mass. The more mass, the more penetration. Stand at 20 yards and choose the projectile you'd want to be hit with. A ping pong ball or a golf ball with a starting speed of 75mph. The lighter the projectile the quicker it slows down.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Hahaha. Now that is funny. You are trying to prove that penetration is gained by FOC. By saying it’s the added mass. Hahaha. No crap. Hahaha. you can add mass at the tip or through out the arrow. You WILL GET SAME PENETRATION. Hahaha. Mass is mass.

By the way the reason a light arrow slows down faster is call inertia.

Ranch fairy just posted a test. Two arrows at 60 yards one was 472gr and the other was 707gr. At target the 707 gran was just over 7% difference. 7% is ot worth it. Same test was 472 vs just over 600gr. Less then 3% difference. Not worth it at all.
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 11:15 AM   #36
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckologist View Post
Speed where? Speed leaving the bow or speed at the target? Lighter projectiles slow down faster than heavier projectiles. Again, would you rather be hit by a ping pong ball or a golf ball that started out at 75mph and you were 20 yards away? Or how about this, you stand 20 yards away and let me throw either one at you as hard as I can. It's likely the ping pong ball won't even reach you but I'll nail you with the golf ball. Speed does not kill, momentum kills
You think momentum is it. Here is a physics lesson.

Two objects with equal momentum and unequal mass the object with the highest velocity will be harder to stop. That will be the lighter object.

Now here is a test for you, build you a 400gr arrow. Build a second arrow 200 plus gr more. Match the momentum at the target. Then see which one will out penetrates. You are fixing your learn physics.
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 11:25 AM   #37
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckologist View Post
I know it's not a length thing. I know it's a weight difference and that is what I am talking about. MASS. I understand an 11" ball weighs nearly the same as a 12". I am saying a 550 grain arrow is quite a bit of a difference over a 350 grain arrow. I will agree that dead is dead with either arrow IF you can get the deer to never move and you can hit the heart 100% of the time. That just isn't real world though. Both of those arrows will leave the bow with the same speed, the lighter arrow will slow down faster, that's a fact. The heavier arrow will carry more momentum at the target vs the lighter arrow, that's also a fact. The arrow carrying more momentum will penetrate further than the arrow carrying less momentum, also fact. Physics. When the animal moves and my shot placement ends up not exactly where I intended, I want some momentum to carry my arrow through the animal.
You want to talk physics. Then you should know that work energy theorem. If you do then you should no it’s not momentum that gives us the capacity to penetrate. KE is. Momentum is how hard to stop. It takes both but Ke is is that capacity. That is pure physics.

Again it’s a easy test. Build two arrows of unequal mass. Equal. Omengum at target. The one with the highest ke will out penetrates. That will be the lighter arrow. All other factors equal.
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 11:48 AM   #38
DRT
Pope & Young
 
DRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Fort Worth, Tx
Hunt In: Jones County and Missouri
Default

The arrow slows down more, but at the end, 267fps is still a whole lot faster than 226fps.
DRT is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 12:11 PM   #39
IkemanTX
Ten Point
 
IkemanTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Greater DFW
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by enewman View Post
You want to talk physics. Then you should know that work energy theorem. If you do then you should no it’s not momentum that gives us the capacity to penetrate. KE is. Momentum is how hard to stop. It takes both but Ke is is that capacity. That is pure physics.

Again it’s a easy test. Build two arrows of unequal mass. Equal. Omengum at target. The one with the highest ke will out penetrates. That will be the lighter arrow. All other factors equal.

I was in the middle of writing out a long response explaining why this is incorrect, but this 2016 post from another forum does a much better job.

QUOTE:
There is very little you can do about KE, because the bow determines over 90% of the end value. KE is the result of releasing the stored energy in the bow,

Potential Energy, or PE. The conversion of PE to KE by transferring the stored energy into the arrow has some losses; hysteresis is the frictional loss of the

cams tuning over the roller for the string, etc.; the vibration of the string that transfers into the riser is called a Virtual Mass (VM) energy loss and depends on

the efficiency of the PE transfer.

You can't do anything about the Hysteresis.

You can do some things to reduce the VM loss, mostly by using a heavier arrow with good nock fit. A heavier arrow provides a more efficient transfer of the PE

and results in a slight improvement of the KE that goes into the arrow. Think of it like throwing a ping-pong ball as hard as you can compared to throwing a

baseball as hard as you can and the difference in stress on the shoulder and elbow joints, the stress that is felt is the throwing force that didn't go into the

object thrown. The difference in KE between a 5 gr/lb arrow and a 10 gr/lb arrow is about 5% at most. Example: if a 350-gr arrow had a KE of 65 ft-lbs, then

700-gr arrow would have a KE of about 68.3 ft-lbs.

But, like the ping-pong vs baseball, you can throw the baseball farther than the ping-pong for several reasons. First the baseball initially is slower than the

ping-pong, so the aerodynamic drag is less. Secondly, the baseball has more mass (Momentum), so resists change and direction of its initial speed and

direction more so than the ping-pong, which slows rapidly due to the affect of drag and lack of Momentum, and tends to veer off course under outside forces

(wind, etc.) due to its lack of Momentum.

A heavy arrow will maintain more of its speed downrange than a light arrow, about 3% more. After much testing, I've found that about 90% of drag on an arrow is

due to the shaft (liner drag coefficient) and about 10% is due to the fletching (linear and rotational drag), and that about 4 fps speed loss every ten yards is a

good heuristic number for an arrow between 6.5 gr/lb ~8 gr/lb and about 5 fps for an arrow between 5 gr/lb ~6 gr/lb, at least out to about 60 yds.
Example: Assume a 70# bow rated at 345 fps IBO shoots a 350 grain arrow (5 gr/lb) at 300 fps, 69.9KE, and a 450-gr arrow (6.4 gr/lb) at 268 fps, or 71.7KE (this

accounts for about 3% gain due to the heavier weight, less VM loss).
Note: OnTarget2 yields inaccurate speed and KE calculation for very heavy arrows, so it can't be trusted with arrows much over 8 gr-lb. Larry Clague and I have

discussed this, the the fix is too complicated for most home computers. You can walk-back most of the OT2 error by using the Calibration Tab, shooting an

arrow ±30 grains of the actual arrow you'll be using through a chonograph, then using that data for the software to generate an accurate speed, hence an

accurate KE value.

Next, assume the arrow hits the Elk at 40 yds. At 5 fps loss over every ten yards the the 350-gr arrow will impact at 280 fps, at 4 fps loss over every ten yards,

the 450 grain arrow will impact at 252 fps.
The 350 gr arrow impacts with 60.9 KE
The 450 gr arrow impacts with 63.4 KE

On impact, here is where things change dramatically. Force x Distance=KE=Work. However, not all the KE transfers into useful Work, which is penetration distance.
- Some KE is lost due to Rebound Energy on Impact (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). The resistance to penetrate the hair, hide,

bones, tissue is reflected back into the arrow. This is a Force acting on the arrow in the exact opposite direction of penetration. We know that a lighter arrow is

faster under a force than a heavy arrow, so the rebound speed is greater for the lighter arrow, that is the lighter arrow loses a greater percentage of impact speed than

the heavy arrow due to impact forces. In fact I've done some testing with a 484 gr arrow as a base line and found that every 40 grains less in arrow weight

increases rebound energy by about 8% of the impact speed. There are other minor losses, such as shaft flex/vibration on impact, stopping arrow rotation as the BH

engages tissue or bone, but for practical purposes they can be ignored.
-- So if the 350 gr arrow impacts at 280 fps, the lost speed will be (484-350/40 x 8% = 26% loss of impact speed), resulting in 207 fps useful "penetration" speed, or 33.3

KE.
-- So if the 450 gr arrow impacts at 252 fps, the lost speed will be (484-450/40 x 8% = 8.5% loss of impact speed), resulting in 230 fps useful "penetration" speed, or 52.8

KE.

Note: If the loss of penetration speed for the 350-gr arrow seems excessive, it is not when comparing Momentum values to a 60# recurve shooting a 618-gr, 10

-gr/lb arrow at 156 fps, which is 33.4 KE, .428 Momentum. The 350 grain arrow has 33.3 KE, .441 Momentum, nearly the same values and same penetration

performance of a Trad hunting bow, which I had proven by taking a cow elk with a 60#@28" Bear Recurve, 25 yard, broadside, pass through.



The next factor in determining penetration potential is the broadhead performance. There is a lot of discussion about blade angles, blade sharpness,

etc., but the only major factor affecting the Work done is Total Cut. To better understand penetration potential and recommended minimum KE from the KE Lethality Tables you have to

understand how the tables were developed:
- The table was developed in the 1950s from data when most hunting shafts weighed 500+ grains, and much of the data was gathered with Trad Bows at ranges

under 30 yds. This brings into question whether the Table reflects the lethality of KE or Momentum, since the lethality could have been expressed in either

value.
- It only measures lethality, not pass through potential. When the tables were developed the popular notion was an arrow was more lethal if it remained inside

the vitals, so that the broadhead could 'work' as the animal ran. To achieve a 'pass through' lethality, the KE values probably need to be increased by 25% ~

33%.
- Average recovery distance, the time for the broadhead to 'work', for a Whitetail deer was 125 yds.
- Nearly all shafts were 5/16" or 11/32" o.d., hardly any of the data is derived from 'skinny' shafts. Skinny shafts can reduce the amount of KE required up to

10%.
- Nearly all the data is derived from fixed-blade broadheads of 1" to 1-1/8" cut diameter, 3-blade, like the DelMa MA-3, or the 4-blade like the Bear Razorhead

and Zwickey Eskimo. To determine the increase in KE needed to drive a 2" cut broadhead as deep as a 1" cut broadhead, use the ratio of Total Cut Volumes

(TCV). For example for 14" of penetration, considered a pass through on a Whitetail, a 2"cut, 2-blade has a TCV of 28", and a 1" cut, 3-blade has a TCV of 21",

so it takes about 28/21= 1.33 or 33% more KE to drive a 2" 2-blade 14" deep as it does to drive a 1" 3-blade 14" deep.


Using Elk as an example, 42 KE is the recommended minimum IMPACT VELOCITY KE for a 'lethal' shot, with 3 or 4 blade fixed blade with a Total Cut of 1.7"

(1.125"/2 x 3 = 1.7") and on average 16" of penetration into a 24" chest cavity (2/3rd of the chest cavity). If you want a pass through, which requires 8" more

penetration, using the same Total Cut broadhead, then the Impact KE increases to 63 ft-lbs minimum.

If you use a mech head that takes 2 KE to open, and has a 2 blade 2" cut, then you have to add 2KE to the 42KE minimum, for 44KE, then multiply by the

mech head 2" Total Cut divided by the 1.7" Total Cut in the KE Tables, for 51.7 KE to penetrate 16", then increase the Mimimum KE to get the additional 8" for

a pass through, making the Mech Hd min KE for pass through 77 KE. In other words, to get a good chance of a pass through at 40 yds with a Mech head, 450-grain ICS

arrow, a 28" DL archer would need a 70# bow that has an IBO rating of about 350 fps or faster.

If your setup doesn't meet the calculated minimum KE's above, then there are some things you can do about it. Dr. Ashby has done testing and found that a

skinny shaft can increase penetration by 10% or more, FOC over 18% can increase penetration up to 20% more. I compared a 484-gr standard ICS Easton 3-

71 ACC arrow with 14.5% FOC to a 484-gr Victory VAP .239" o.d. skinny shaft with 21% FOC, and got a consistent 22% increase in penetration in a new

block target. In other words, if a standard ICS arrow with 10%~12% FOC needs 63 ft-lbs KE for a pass through with a 1-1/8" 3-blade broadhead, then a skinny

shaft of the same weight, but with 20% FOC, only requires 49 KE for a pass through, which you could get using a bow with a lower IBO rating.

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/PR/A...ing_Arrows.pdf

These are all the details...FWIW, I put more value on the Momentum than on KE, but there is no Momentum Lethality Tables to refer to, so this complicated

conversion of KE to penetration potential has to be done...hope it helps.:icon_smile_thumbup:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
IkemanTX is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 12:11 PM   #40
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

Here are the first four arrows in the fairy test. I added difference between arrow drop at 0 to 60. Then I showed difference between the light vs heavy at 60 yards.
Attached Images
 
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 12:26 PM   #41
IkemanTX
Ten Point
 
IkemanTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Greater DFW
Default

The overall answer is to shoot the heaviest, most FOC, arrow that works for your desired shooting distance / trajectory preferences, and put an insanely sharp cut on contact broadhead on the pointy end.

If you shoot 50-70 yards and don’t want to shoot rainbows, lighten up to the maximum weight that will meet your trajectory needs. If, like me, you won’t shoot past 30 yards regardless of FPS or trajectory…. Load the grain weight up like a freight train and enjoy a solid plan B setup.

For reference, my 710gr 25.4%FOC arrow passed through a mature buck from top to bottom this past season and still had enough energy to break the femur on exit. Entered between the shoulder and spine at the tip of the backstrap, exited just the other side of the sternum.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
IkemanTX is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 12:40 PM   #42
cbd10pt
Ten Point
 
cbd10pt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: League city/ Marbella
Hunt In: looking for new places
Default

I killed 14 hogs and a buck this year with a 383 grain arrow 13% foc
Rage ss broadheads 55# bow 285 fps
The ones you hit right die
The ones you don't - not so much
Slow ars arrows tend to cause more bad hits.
Fast arrows with big fixed blades cause more bad hits.

I've been on over 300 blood trails , all kinds of heads/arrows/speeds etc.
Just make sure you hit them right
cbd10pt is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 12:42 PM   #43
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IkemanTX View Post
I was in the middle of writing out a long response explaining why this is incorrect, but this 2016 post from another forum does a much better job.

QUOTE:
There is very little you can do about KE, because the bow determines over 90% of the end value. KE is the result of releasing the stored energy in the bow,

Potential Energy, or PE. The conversion of PE to KE by transferring the stored energy into the arrow has some losses; hysteresis is the frictional loss of the

cams tuning over the roller for the string, etc.; the vibration of the string that transfers into the riser is called a Virtual Mass (VM) energy loss and depends on

the efficiency of the PE transfer.

You can't do anything about the Hysteresis.

You can do some things to reduce the VM loss, mostly by using a heavier arrow with good nock fit. A heavier arrow provides a more efficient transfer of the PE

and results in a slight improvement of the KE that goes into the arrow. Think of it like throwing a ping-pong ball as hard as you can compared to throwing a

baseball as hard as you can and the difference in stress on the shoulder and elbow joints, the stress that is felt is the throwing force that didn't go into the

object thrown. The difference in KE between a 5 gr/lb arrow and a 10 gr/lb arrow is about 5% at most. Example: if a 350-gr arrow had a KE of 65 ft-lbs, then

700-gr arrow would have a KE of about 68.3 ft-lbs.

But, like the ping-pong vs baseball, you can throw the baseball farther than the ping-pong for several reasons. First the baseball initially is slower than the

ping-pong, so the aerodynamic drag is less. Secondly, the baseball has more mass (Momentum), so resists change and direction of its initial speed and

direction more so than the ping-pong, which slows rapidly due to the affect of drag and lack of Momentum, and tends to veer off course under outside forces

(wind, etc.) due to its lack of Momentum.

A heavy arrow will maintain more of its speed downrange than a light arrow, about 3% more. After much testing, I've found that about 90% of drag on an arrow is

due to the shaft (liner drag coefficient) and about 10% is due to the fletching (linear and rotational drag), and that about 4 fps speed loss every ten yards is a

good heuristic number for an arrow between 6.5 gr/lb ~8 gr/lb and about 5 fps for an arrow between 5 gr/lb ~6 gr/lb, at least out to about 60 yds.
Example: Assume a 70# bow rated at 345 fps IBO shoots a 350 grain arrow (5 gr/lb) at 300 fps, 69.9KE, and a 450-gr arrow (6.4 gr/lb) at 268 fps, or 71.7KE (this

accounts for about 3% gain due to the heavier weight, less VM loss).
Note: OnTarget2 yields inaccurate speed and KE calculation for very heavy arrows, so it can't be trusted with arrows much over 8 gr-lb. Larry Clague and I have

discussed this, the the fix is too complicated for most home computers. You can walk-back most of the OT2 error by using the Calibration Tab, shooting an

arrow ±30 grains of the actual arrow you'll be using through a chonograph, then using that data for the software to generate an accurate speed, hence an

accurate KE value.

Next, assume the arrow hits the Elk at 40 yds. At 5 fps loss over every ten yards the the 350-gr arrow will impact at 280 fps, at 4 fps loss over every ten yards,

the 450 grain arrow will impact at 252 fps.
The 350 gr arrow impacts with 60.9 KE
The 450 gr arrow impacts with 63.4 KE

On impact, here is where things change dramatically. Force x Distance=KE=Work. However, not all the KE transfers into useful Work, which is penetration distance.
- Some KE is lost due to Rebound Energy on Impact (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). The resistance to penetrate the hair, hide,

bones, tissue is reflected back into the arrow. This is a Force acting on the arrow in the exact opposite direction of penetration. We know that a lighter arrow is

faster under a force than a heavy arrow, so the rebound speed is greater for the lighter arrow, that is the lighter arrow loses a greater percentage of impact speed than

the heavy arrow due to impact forces. In fact I've done some testing with a 484 gr arrow as a base line and found that every 40 grains less in arrow weight

increases rebound energy by about 8% of the impact speed. There are other minor losses, such as shaft flex/vibration on impact, stopping arrow rotation as the BH

engages tissue or bone, but for practical purposes they can be ignored.
-- So if the 350 gr arrow impacts at 280 fps, the lost speed will be (484-350/40 x 8% = 26% loss of impact speed), resulting in 207 fps useful "penetration" speed, or 33.3

KE.
-- So if the 450 gr arrow impacts at 252 fps, the lost speed will be (484-450/40 x 8% = 8.5% loss of impact speed), resulting in 230 fps useful "penetration" speed, or 52.8

KE.

Note: If the loss of penetration speed for the 350-gr arrow seems excessive, it is not when comparing Momentum values to a 60# recurve shooting a 618-gr, 10

-gr/lb arrow at 156 fps, which is 33.4 KE, .428 Momentum. The 350 grain arrow has 33.3 KE, .441 Momentum, nearly the same values and same penetration

performance of a Trad hunting bow, which I had proven by taking a cow elk with a 60#@28" Bear Recurve, 25 yard, broadside, pass through.



The next factor in determining penetration potential is the broadhead performance. There is a lot of discussion about blade angles, blade sharpness,

etc., but the only major factor affecting the Work done is Total Cut. To better understand penetration potential and recommended minimum KE from the KE Lethality Tables you have to

understand how the tables were developed:
- The table was developed in the 1950s from data when most hunting shafts weighed 500+ grains, and much of the data was gathered with Trad Bows at ranges

under 30 yds. This brings into question whether the Table reflects the lethality of KE or Momentum, since the lethality could have been expressed in either

value.
- It only measures lethality, not pass through potential. When the tables were developed the popular notion was an arrow was more lethal if it remained inside

the vitals, so that the broadhead could 'work' as the animal ran. To achieve a 'pass through' lethality, the KE values probably need to be increased by 25% ~

33%.
- Average recovery distance, the time for the broadhead to 'work', for a Whitetail deer was 125 yds.
- Nearly all shafts were 5/16" or 11/32" o.d., hardly any of the data is derived from 'skinny' shafts. Skinny shafts can reduce the amount of KE required up to

10%.
- Nearly all the data is derived from fixed-blade broadheads of 1" to 1-1/8" cut diameter, 3-blade, like the DelMa MA-3, or the 4-blade like the Bear Razorhead

and Zwickey Eskimo. To determine the increase in KE needed to drive a 2" cut broadhead as deep as a 1" cut broadhead, use the ratio of Total Cut Volumes

(TCV). For example for 14" of penetration, considered a pass through on a Whitetail, a 2"cut, 2-blade has a TCV of 28", and a 1" cut, 3-blade has a TCV of 21",

so it takes about 28/21= 1.33 or 33% more KE to drive a 2" 2-blade 14" deep as it does to drive a 1" 3-blade 14" deep.


Using Elk as an example, 42 KE is the recommended minimum IMPACT VELOCITY KE for a 'lethal' shot, with 3 or 4 blade fixed blade with a Total Cut of 1.7"

(1.125"/2 x 3 = 1.7") and on average 16" of penetration into a 24" chest cavity (2/3rd of the chest cavity). If you want a pass through, which requires 8" more

penetration, using the same Total Cut broadhead, then the Impact KE increases to 63 ft-lbs minimum.

If you use a mech head that takes 2 KE to open, and has a 2 blade 2" cut, then you have to add 2KE to the 42KE minimum, for 44KE, then multiply by the

mech head 2" Total Cut divided by the 1.7" Total Cut in the KE Tables, for 51.7 KE to penetrate 16", then increase the Mimimum KE to get the additional 8" for

a pass through, making the Mech Hd min KE for pass through 77 KE. In other words, to get a good chance of a pass through at 40 yds with a Mech head, 450-grain ICS

arrow, a 28" DL archer would need a 70# bow that has an IBO rating of about 350 fps or faster.

If your setup doesn't meet the calculated minimum KE's above, then there are some things you can do about it. Dr. Ashby has done testing and found that a

skinny shaft can increase penetration by 10% or more, FOC over 18% can increase penetration up to 20% more. I compared a 484-gr standard ICS Easton 3-

71 ACC arrow with 14.5% FOC to a 484-gr Victory VAP .239" o.d. skinny shaft with 21% FOC, and got a consistent 22% increase in penetration in a new

block target. In other words, if a standard ICS arrow with 10%~12% FOC needs 63 ft-lbs KE for a pass through with a 1-1/8" 3-blade broadhead, then a skinny

shaft of the same weight, but with 20% FOC, only requires 49 KE for a pass through, which you could get using a bow with a lower IBO rating.

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/PR/A...ing_Arrows.pdf

These are all the details...FWIW, I put more value on the Momentum than on KE, but there is no Momentum Lethality Tables to refer to, so this complicated

conversion of KE to penetration potential has to be done...hope it helps.:icon_smile_thumbup:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I never said anything against this. Every person that shoots should know this. Hell I have papers written on this. Hahaha.

Im Talking physics. So match momentum at target and see what happens.

Do you know why there are no momentum tables? Because momentum is not what gives us the work to penetrate. Momentum is what tells us how hard it is to stop

Last edited by enewman; 07-03-2021 at 12:56 PM.
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 12:50 PM   #44
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

IkemanTX

here is a few numbers for you.

Arrow 1 400gr. .520 momentum
Arrow 2 600gr. .520 momentum

Which arrow will out penetrate if all other factors are equal. Now this is a physics test. So, bone in not part of the equation.

The question and test will show you if this statement made by most is true or false. ( momentum built on mass will out penetrate momentum built on velocity)

The test will also give you the answer if it’s ke or momentum that gives us the capacity to penetrate.
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 12:53 PM   #45
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IkemanTX View Post
The overall answer is to shoot the heaviest, most FOC, arrow that works for your desired shooting distance / trajectory preferences, and put an insanely sharp cut on contact broadhead on the pointy end.

If you shoot 50-70 yards and don’t want to shoot rainbows, lighten up to the maximum weight that will meet your trajectory needs. If, like me, you won’t shoot past 30 yards regardless of FPS or trajectory…. Load the grain weight up like a freight train and enjoy a solid plan B setup.

For reference, my 710gr 25.4%FOC arrow passed through a mature buck from top to bottom this past season and still had enough energy to break the femur on exit. Entered between the shoulder and spine at the tip of the backstrap, exited just the other side of the sternum.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Of course it did. Question is, would a 550 have done the same?
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 02:13 PM   #46
TradHunter
Eight Point
 
TradHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: DFW Area
Default

TradHunter is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 03:00 PM   #47
IkemanTX
Ten Point
 
IkemanTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Greater DFW
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbd10pt View Post
I killed 14 hogs and a buck this year with a 383 grain arrow 13% foc
Rage ss broadheads 55# bow 285 fps
The ones you hit right die
The ones you don't - not so much
Slow ars arrows tend to cause more bad hits.
Fast arrows with big fixed blades cause more bad hits.

I've been on over 300 blood trails , all kinds of heads/arrows/speeds etc.
Just make sure you hit them right
If these were stoic, stationary targets…. I would halfway agree. It has been proven time and time again that a whitetail can drop more than 7 inches from arrow release to impact, even with a fast bow. “Hit them right” is only the plan A. I will always aim for plan A, but I want enough penetration and breaking power to make it through plans B, C, and D if the unfortunately happens too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enewman View Post
IkemanTX

here is a few numbers for you.

Arrow 1 400gr. .520 momentum
Arrow 2 600gr. .520 momentum

Which arrow will out penetrate if all other factors are equal. Now this is a physics test. So, bone in not part of the equation.

The question and test will show you if this statement made by most is true or false. ( momentum built on mass will out penetrate momentum built on velocity)

The test will also give you the answer if it’s ke or momentum that gives us the capacity to penetrate.

Bone HAS to be part of the equation because it is a probable obstacle in bowhunting. If you’re building a setup ignoring limiting factors, you are designing your own failure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
IkemanTX is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 03:04 PM   #48
IkemanTX
Ten Point
 
IkemanTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Greater DFW
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by enewman View Post
Of course it did. Question is, would a 550 have done the same?

550? Most likely. I wouldn’t be surprised if the only difference between my 710 and 550 is the broken femur not happening.

Now, I know a 350 grain wouldn’t have done it. I’ve shot enough of those in the past to know that the amount of bone and hard cartilage my arrow went through would have stopped it cold.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
IkemanTX is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 03:32 PM   #49
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IkemanTX View Post
If these were stoic, stationary targets…. I would halfway agree. It has been proven time and time again that a whitetail can drop more than 7 inches from arrow release to impact, even with a fast bow. “Hit them right” is only the plan A. I will always aim for plan A, but I want enough penetration and breaking power to make it through plans B, C, and D if the unfortunately happens too.




Bone HAS to be part of the equation because it is a probable obstacle in bowhunting. If you’re building a setup ignoring limiting factors, you are designing your own failure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No sir. You are not answering the question. You are wanting to add a variable. To test physics we remove variables. But let’s talk about bone. I’ve killed a range of animals over the years. Around 100 plus not counting turkey. To hit bone is around 3 to 4%. Now that is major bone. Those are low odds. Why are my odds low? I don’t take shots that are questionable or I try not.

So, answer the question. It’s a physics question.

Projectile 1 is 400gr at .520 momentum at impact.
Projectile 2 is 600gr at .520 momentum at impact.
Which projectile will be harder to stop.

We can add the variables back in after you answer the question.
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 07-03-2021, 03:38 PM   #50
enewman
Ten Point
 
enewman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Odessa TX
Hunt In: Any where I can
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TradHunter View Post
So, while you are beating that dead horse. Take your hand at answering the physics question I asked.

Projectile 1 400gr .520 momentum at impact
Projectile 2 600gr .520 momentum at impact
Which projectile will be harder to stop.
enewman is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright 1999-2012, TexasBowhunter.com