The 2020 Thermal & Night Vision Thread

[Outdoor Legacy]

Thanks. I’ve been listening to your podcast every chance I get. Including today Lol. Compared to regular scopes, 3x9 is super common and probably on almost all of my rifles in the safe. Is the base 4x of the Thermion really that big of a difference? Right now we hunt 350 acres 65% fields but I do have access to a lot of more dense growth pine leases also. Definitely a toss up to wait it out.

This is a very common question for guys new to NV/thermal hunting, so don't feel bad for asking. One reason that the digital night vision optics are pretty high magnification like 4x is because that's the scopes that a lot of new night hunters buy and coming from daytime optics, they really think they need high magnification at night. In truth, you want to buy the absolute lowest magnification you can reasonably get by with. I'll explain.

During the day you locate the animal with your naked eyes and then you point your rifle at it, look through the scope and normally, you can see the animal. If you don't see it, you pull you head back, lean to the left, spot it again and move your rifle/scope to point at it and now you see it in your scope. At night....there is none of that. You have no forward vision with your eyes and no peripheral vision, which we also take for granted. If you don't see him in your scope, you don't see him at all.

Generally speaking, as the magnification goes up, the field of view goes down. To counter this, thermal manufacturers enlarge the objective lens size. The problem is, to completely counter that FOV issue, objective lenses would have to be huge and another side note but the lenses are not glass on thermals. They are germanium and it's one of the most expensive parts of the scope. Let's take a couple scopes as examples, the (discontinued) Trail XQ38 is 2.1x base mag and it has a 56ft FOV at 110 yards with a 32mm objective. The XQ50 is 2.7x base mag and it has a 42ft FOV at 110 yards with a 42mm objective. The objective lens size went up 10mm or 24% and there was still a net loss of 25% of the FOV by going up a little over 1/2 power of magnification.

The point is, generally speaking, the more magnification, the narrower the FOV and a narrow FOV and a high magnification are the 2 enemies of a night hunter. There are some exceptions to this rule depending on how you hunt, for instance, someone hunting hogs at feeders from a deer stand can get by with less FOV and higher base mag than a guy hunting the exact same distances doing spot and stalk hunting. Now to be clear, this does not mean that 4x or even 5.5x base mag is a bad thing. It just depends on your hunting conditions, shooting ranges, personal comfort levels etc.

Did I mention there is also a huge danger is getting too low of a base magnification? That's another topic for another day.

My advice to people is, call a good honest dealer who uses every scope IN the field and get his advice on what you need. Shameless TBH sponsor plug, we are one of those dealers. But I have a couple friends who are big dealers as well and they fit this bill too. Getting advice on what to buy from a FB group full of random people who've only looked through a few thermals is not a wise decision when it comes to spending this kind of money.

Also, I'm not sure if I mentioned it or not previously but since 4x magnification was mentioned, the Thermion XM38 4x has been discontinued and the FLIR PTS536 4x is gone too, so there aren't any less expensive/quality 4x scopes on the market right now.

I hope this helps a little.

- Jason

[Russ81]

Also how you hunt hogs at night is different then your daytime hunting. First hog I ever shot with my Trail XQ50 was at 181yds because I saw him and shot because I was still in day hunting mode... shoot on sight.

I had an issue (didn’t read the manual...) and had called Jason and he called me back the next morning. Told what happened and his response was classic...

“Why didn’t you get closer???”

Long as you don’t sound like a bull elephant stomping thru the woods get up on them and make a clean shot. The last hog video I posted was a good example. With the 2.7 base off the trail it looked further then what he was but my Axion XM30 made him seem right in front of me with 4x base magnification.

Here’s the 181yd hog
First Shot with the Pulsar Trail XQ50 http://youtu.be/4YpUAdOZIW8


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[rossivey]

This is a very common question for guys new to NV/thermal hunting, so don't feel bad for asking. One reason that the digital night vision optics are pretty high magnification like 4x is because that's the scopes that a lot of new night hunters buy and coming from daytime optics, they really think they need high magnification at night. In truth, you want to buy the absolute lowest magnification you can reasonably get by with. I'll explain.



During the day you locate the animal with your naked eyes and then you point your rifle at it, look through the scope and normally, you can see the animal. If you don't see it, you pull you head back, lean to the left, spot it again and move your rifle/scope to point at it and now you see it in your scope. At night....there is none of that. You have no forward vision with your eyes and no peripheral vision, which we also take for granted. If you don't see him in your scope, you don't see him at all.



Generally speaking, as the magnification goes up, the field of view goes down. To counter this, thermal manufacturers enlarge the objective lens size. The problem is, to completely counter that FOV issue, objective lenses would have to be huge and another side note but the lenses are not glass on thermals. They are germanium and it's one of the most expensive parts of the scope. Let's take a couple scopes as examples, the (discontinued) Trail XQ38 is 2.1x base mag and it has a 56ft FOV at 110 yards with a 32mm objective. The XQ50 is 2.7x base mag and it has a 42ft FOV at 110 yards with a 42mm objective. The objective lens size went up 10mm or 24% and there was still a net loss of 25% of the FOV by going up a little over 1/2 power of magnification.



The point is, generally speaking, the more magnification, the narrower the FOV and a narrow FOV and a high magnification are the 2 enemies of a night hunter. There are some exceptions to this rule depending on how you hunt, for instance, someone hunting hogs at feeders from a deer stand can get by with less FOV and higher base mag than a guy hunting the exact same distances doing spot and stalk hunting. Now to be clear, this does not mean that 4x or even 5.5x base mag is a bad thing. It just depends on your hunting conditions, shooting ranges, personal comfort levels etc.



Did I mention there is also a huge danger is getting too low of a base magnification? That's another topic for another day.



My advice to people is, call a good honest dealer who uses every scope IN the field and get his advice on what you need. Shameless TBH sponsor plug, we are one of those dealers. But I have a couple friends who are big dealers as well and they fit this bill too. Getting advice on what to buy from a FB group full of random people who've only looked through a few thermals is not a wise decision when it comes to spending this kind of money.



Also, I'm not sure if I mentioned it or not previously but since 4x magnification was mentioned, the Thermion XM38 4x has been discontinued and the FLIR PTS536 4x is gone too, so there aren't any less expensive/quality 4x scopes on the market right now.



I hope this helps a little.



- Jason

I hope you copied and pasted that! That's an epic novel lol

Seriously though, great info! Glad to have someone on here that can explain it and answer questions

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[RMW]

Me and my buddy killed 31 hogs tonight here at the deer lease, corned the roads and made round after round. Probably saw at least 100 hogs. He used a pulsar apex xq50 and I used a pulsar trail xq38.

[Russ81]

Me and my buddy killed 31 hogs tonight here at the deer lease, corned the roads and made round after round. Probably saw at least 100 hogs. He used a pulsar apex xq50 and I used a pulsar trail xq38.

Nice!


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[Fordnandez]

My BIL shot a pretty nice hog this past weekend with his Wraith. We spotted it with a Flir 536 that was not weapon mounted yet. We would have never seen this hog without the use of a thermal. Super pleased with the Flir and my Axion XM30.

[RMW]

Been using my Halo Lr the last few weeks and I’ve got to say I’m not really impressed. For 8100.00 I thought it would blow away my Pulsar trail xq38, boy was I wrong. It’s got a better image but not by much.

[Pushbutton2]

My BIL shot a pretty nice hog this past weekend with his Wraith. We spotted it with a Flir 536 that was not weapon mounted yet. We would have never seen this hog without the use of a thermal. Super pleased with the Flir and my Axion XM30.

[emoji1303]
Just sold my Wraith.
Not sure what's next. Thermal is, haven't decided if it's going to be a scope or monocular....

As Always My Heart is filled with Love for You and Your Families. Not because I am commanded to Love my Neighbor, but because I can, am able to and it brings me Joy.

[kkp005]

Been using my Halo Lr the last few weeks and I’ve got to say I’m not really impressed. For 8100.00 I thought it would blow away my Pulsar trail xq38, boy was I wrong. It’s got a better image but not by much.

I also had an xq38 first and then got a halo Lr. The trail xq38 is just a phenomenal scope for the money with all the built in features. The image on the halo is great.....but I honestly think I’d rather have 2 xq38’s. I still use the xq38 to scan with but at times Halo Lr comes in handy when trying to ID animals wayyyy out there. I’m also not a fan of any of the Halo reticles

[Outdoor Legacy]

If you want THE best on the market and know that there is literally nothing you can own any better, you have no choice to pick up something like a Halo LR or a Trijicon. I think what it boils down to is the value for the dollar. The rule of "diminishing returns" is at play with these really high end thermal scopes.

Here is what I mean by that. The Thermion XP50 is Pulsar's best scope and it's $5,000. The Halor LR is $7,500 or 50% more than the XP50. Is the image quality 50% better than the Thermion XP50? No way. But it's definitely better Is it really worth $2,500 more than the XP50? I say it depends on the person. Personality is really a big player in people forming that opinion. I know a ton of people who can't imagine using anything less than Trijicon or N-Vision and cost doesn't factor into that equation. Other people are looking for the best bang for the buck or the best image quality within a "reasonable" price. The problem is, everyone's definition of what is "reasonable", is different.

That's what's great, there are choices for everyone! From a $500 Sightmark Wraith to a $9,000 Trijicon MK3 60mm.

Jason

[35remington]

If you want THE best on the market and know that there is literally nothing you can own any better, you have no choice to pick up something like a Halo LR or a Trijicon.

I'm happy to play devil's advocate to this. If all you care about is image quality, and you don't care about reticles, battery life, price, PIP, laser range-finding, recording, or streamability, then sure, pick up a Halo or a MK III. Image quality is literally the *only* thing they do better.

I have Halo LR money. I wouldn't buy one at HALF their asking price. The rest of the features I listed are all on my Trail XP50 LRF, and I love them way, way too much to walk away.

[Low Fence]

Pulsars got a workout this weekend

New homemade battery packs worked flawlessly in all

[gingib]

Pulsars got a workout this weekend

New homemade battery packs worked flawlessly in all

Please explain why you made a homemade battery pack for a pulsar?

Now thats a pile

[Low Fence]

.... cause pulsar wants $130 for theirs and I made one for $19 that so far has gone 20 hours on a single charge and still going.... 1/4 the size and weight

But other than that no reason

[Russ81]

Y’all talking batteries and I’m waiting on sundown to see the new firmware update on how the XQ trails look [emoji23][emoji23]


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