Time for adult arrows....

[IkemanTX]

Originally Posted by enewman

first, you must learn what reactions mean.

compound bow with the release. side tears are power stroke is incorrect. now the right tear is also signed of torque. you looked good there.

up and down tear. a high tear can be a weak reaction. it can be a nock travel issue.

a low tear as you have is a nock travel issue. the easy way of knowing is because as you added tip weight to that 300 spine and you got no changes. this tells me something is not set correctly. you are having a greater pull from the bottom of the bow. this could be a top weak limb or a strong bottom limb. could be you are to low in the burger hole. arrow not level or the cams are out of sync. anyone of these could be the problem, but for sure one is not correct. when a bow is set correctly. you should have a bullet hole with the lighter tip. it will pretty much stay that way till you reach a point where it is to much tip weight. when this happens it will go to a high tear.

this is nothing but reactions. this is why nock tuning is very important to always do first.

this was a fast explanation.

So, I’m guessing all this assumes that nock height and rest are still perfect.....?

Could having the bow pushed from 60-70 lbs screwed any of these up?


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[rocky]

Originally Posted by IkemanTX

So, I’m guessing all this assumes that nock height and rest are still perfect.....?

Could having the bow pushed from 60-70 lbs screwed any of these up?


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I looked at your paper tears. Regardless of spine, I think you have a cam timing issue. Of course, this is assuming nock point is right. Most of today’s bows are more tolerant of spine.

[muddyfuzzy]

I agree with Rocky about the cams. You can really pull a bare shaft with the cams on a dual cam bow. I think Eric is spot on with the nock travel issue which is essentially Rocky’s point. Couple of times in and out of the press with some cable adjustment should fix it up then you can start doing something meaningful with the arrows.


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[HighwayHunter]

Originally Posted by IkemanTX

So, I’m guessing all this assumes that nock height and rest are still perfect.....?

Could having the bow pushed from 60-70 lbs screwed any of these up?


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Yes it could. Wouldn’t take much to mess it up. Anytime I adjust my draw weight, I always time the bow before I begin any paper tuning or tuning efforts for that matter.


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[IkemanTX]

Originally Posted by HighwayHunter

Yes it could. Wouldn’t take much to mess it up. Anytime I adjust my draw weight, I always time the bow before I begin any paper tuning or tuning efforts for that matter.


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Originally Posted by rocky

I looked at your paper tears. Regardless of spine, I think you have a cam timing issue. Of course, this is assuming nock point is right. Most of today’s bows are more tolerant of spine.

Originally Posted by muddyfuzzy

I agree with Rocky about the cams. You can really pull a bare shaft with the cams on a dual cam bow. I think Eric is spot on with the nock travel issue which is essentially Rocky’s point. Couple of times in and out of the press with some cable adjustment should fix it up then you can start doing something meaningful with the arrows.


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Well... I guess it’s back to the bow shop. That won’t happen till late next week, since I’ll be out of town for several days.

I guess I would have assumed they would have known to check that when I had them adjust the poundage...

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[jds247]

Originally Posted by IkemanTX

Well... I guess it’s back to the bow shop. That won’t happen till late next week, since I’ll be out of town for several days.

I guess I would have assumed they would have known to check that when I had them adjust the poundage...

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One of the main reasons I bought a bow press is the shop is never open when you need them.

[HighwayHunter]

Originally Posted by jds247

One of the main reasons I bought a bow press is the shop is never open when you need them.

I’m buying my own soon. I like the guys at the shop, but I annoy the ***** out of them with working on my bow as much as they do. Set both arrows in your rest running through the berger button, then adjust timing. I typically work to get rid of vertical tears first, then work on horizontal tears.


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[jds247]

Originally Posted by HighwayHunter

I’m buying my own soon. I like the guys at the shop, but I annoy the ***** out of them with working on my bow as much as they do. Set both arrows in your rest running through the berger button, then adjust timing. I typically work to get rid of vertical tears first, then work on horizontal tears.


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They are good guys . They don't like heavy arrows or fixed blade broadheads but they will do anything you ask them. Hunter does the majority of the work on my bows. It just always seem like when I have time to tinker it's on off hours..

[muddyfuzzy]

Originally Posted by jds247

They are good guys . They don't like heavy arrows or fixed blade broadheads..

I’d find new friends but that’s just me.....



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[enewman]

Originally Posted by muddyfuzzy

I’d find new friends but that’s just me.....



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Haha. But yes

[Beargrasstx]

Looking to get started. Been binge watching on YouTube for 4 nights now on tuning a bow. Seems to be a few different ways to do this. I am going to try bareshaft but I like the walkback tuning video I saw and seems simple enough.

On to my set up...
Bowtech Assassin
27 in draw
Draw weight 65lbs
28 in micro diameter 300 spine Black eagle rampage (8.77gpi)
50 insert comes with BE
Have RF test pack from 200 to 300gr
Glory Nocks which weigh about 20 to 22gr on back end

Anyone have a similar set up and what are TAW are you shooting?

Since I am going from a regular shaft to a micro diameter I will need to change the nock point or the rest right? I have nock pinch with glory nocks on the Dloop so I have to get a new D-loop installed to account for the thicker nock.

Once I get the new Dloop installed and nock point level then I can start bare shaft tuning with the different weights to see which ones are flying best out of the gate?

Once the weight is determined, then I should nock tune each bareshaft?
Then add wings, then broadhead tune?

Is this correct?

[enewman]

Originally Posted by Beargrasstx

Looking to get started. Been binge watching on YouTube for 4 nights now on tuning a bow. Seems to be a few different ways to do this. I am going to try bareshaft but I like the walkback tuning video I saw and seems simple enough.

On to my set up...
Bowtech Assassin
27 in draw
Draw weight 65lbs
28 in micro diameter 300 spine Black eagle rampage (8.77gpi)
50 insert comes with BE
Have RF test pack from 200 to 300gr
Glory Nocks which weigh about 20 to 22gr on back end

Anyone have a similar set up and what are TAW are you shooting?

Since I am going from a regular shaft to a micro diameter I will need to change the nock point or the rest right? I have nock pinch with glory nocks on the Dloop so I have to get a new D-loop installed to account for the thicker nock.

Once I get the new Dloop installed and nock point level then I can start bare shaft tuning with the different weights to see which ones are flying best out of the gate?

Once the weight is determined, then I should nock tune each bareshaft?
Then add wings, then broadhead tune?

Is this correct?

With this set up. If you cut the arrow to 26.5 you could use either tip weight. If you decide to leave around 27 then the 300 should show high nock. But not much.

Very important bow needs set up first. Everything in spec. Cam timing, cam sync. Set rest that bow you can’t set power stroke. So square rest to riser.

[Beargrasstx]

Just got set up and paper tuned
Bowtech Assassin
150 gr inserts with 125 gr broadhead
TAW 556
FOC 19%
350 gr head flew like a bullet. Perfect at 219 fps

The 275 gr head flew dang near perfect as well so I went with that set up at 233 fps.

I may go back to 350 later but for now easier to find 125gr heads to attach to 150 gr inserts

DL 27
DW65
Arrow length 28
Black eagle rampage

I walked back tuned out to 20yds

Still need to broadhead tune vs fieldpoint. Excited to nail something with this set up

[Beargrasstx]

I also did not bareshaft. I was at the bow shop and we shot through paper. I walked back tuned from 3 yds to 10yds. Then I adjusted Sight elevation for 20

[IkemanTX]

@enewman @rocky
What do y’all think about these tears?

Went to the bow shop and had a new string put on, and everything “brought into spec”.

It started out tearing WILDLY low and a little right (right handed), so I lowered the rest what little it would lower and raised the nock height. It quickly came into level. Then, I moved the rest a small bit away from the riser and the 300 spine started shooting bullets. The 250 tears right and a little high.

I shot through paper at 5 feet, 8 feet, and 12 feet and this is how they looked.






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[rocky]

If your bow is timed correctly, your arrow should be level, and if you’re not torquing the bow, and you top cam is straight at full draw, your arrow should be square to the riser. Level, and middle. I still think your bow is a little out. In most cases, a nock low tear indicates stiff. Of course I’m assuming rest is timed properly also. A setup that tears like those wouldn’t leave my shop unless there was some defect that I couldn’t fix.

[muddyfuzzy]

Originally Posted by IkemanTX

@enewman @rocky
What do y’all think about these tears?

Went to the bow shop and had a new string put on, and everything “brought into spec”.

It started out tearing WILDLY low and a little right (right handed), so I lowered the rest what little it would lower and raised the nock height. It quickly came into level. Then, I moved the rest a small bit away from the riser and the 300 spine started shooting bullets. The 250 tears right and a little high.

I shot through paper at 5 feet, 8 feet, and 12 feet and this is how they looked.






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Brought to “spec” generally means the bow is making the specified peak weight, draw length, axle to axle and brace measurements. Cam starting rotation and sync is a totally different discussion. If one of the cams is advanced or retarded this will cause poor vertical nock travel and subsequent vertical tearing. Moving the rest is just covering up the underlying issue, same for moving the nocking point.


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[IkemanTX]

Originally Posted by muddyfuzzy

Brought to “spec” generally means the bow is making the specified peak weight, draw length, axle to axle and brace measurements. Cam starting rotation and sync is a totally different discussion. If one of the cams is advanced or retarded this will cause poor vertical nock travel and subsequent vertical tearing. Moving the rest is just covering up the underlying issue, same for moving the nocking point.


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I specifically talked with the guy at the shop about rest placement, nock location, cam timing etc... he was well aware that I had narrowed down the issue to cam timing. Hopefully I didn’t waste $50 on having him work on it.


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[Javelin]

Originally Posted by IkemanTX

I specifically talked with the guy at the shop about rest placement, nock location, cam timing etc... he was well aware that I had narrowed down the issue to cam timing. Hopefully I didn’t waste $50 on having him work on it.


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I am no expert at all, however looking at those tears and if the bow shop said you were good I would go find a different shop that will actually take time with you there shooting the bow to get it dialed in perfectly. There are lots and lots of bow shops out there that are good places to shop but have zero skill at tuning a bow. Most bow hunters IMO shoot bows that are extremely out of tune and not at all close to their correct draw length. This has included me in the past till I started learning more and more about it.

[Low Fence]

Just my opinion on paper:

If done by correct person, it’s extremely useful. Fact is MOST can’t shoot a bullet hole with a tuned bow, due to multiple issues. But it’s a fact

The notion of “tune to your quirks” is garbage and BS. there is a small grey area on both sides of perfect that you CAN do that.. but most fall outside that.... it’s why we shoot fletching

Don’t chase your tail too long on this bare shaft of arrow flight is good and shoots BH and FP together at 40+ yards

JMHO

[IkemanTX]

Originally Posted by Low Fence

Just my opinion on paper:

If done by correct person, it’s extremely useful. Fact is MOST can’t shoot a bullet hole with a tuned bow, due to multiple issues. But it’s a fact

The notion of “tune to your quirks” is garbage and BS. there is a small grey area on both sides of perfect that you CAN do that.. but most fall outside that.... it’s why we shoot fletching

Don’t chase your tail too long on this bare shaft of arrow flight is good and shoots BH and FP together at 40+ yards

JMHO

Well, with the current setup, the 300 spine is shooting very consistently tight holes...
do I spend the money to build out this setup and test broadhead flight, or do I work on getting everything tuned perfect before deciding on my arrow setup?


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[RanchFrag]

Man I tried going that route and went with a number of midweight/heavyweight options but I don't think I can get on board. Long story short I going back to 383 grains at 300+ speed. I've got full passthroughs on deer, pig, bear, elk, fallow, and ibex. The only game animals I haven't were red stag (frontal shot) and pig (bad shot placement).

In the end I think confidence is the main factor in any setup. If you are confident then you are going to be a routine killer

[cbd10pt]

Originally Posted by RanchFrag

Man I tried going that route and went with a number of midweight/heavyweight options but I don't think I can get on board. Long story short I going back to 383 grains at 300+ speed. I've got full passthroughs on deer, pig, bear, elk, fallow, and ibex. The only game animals I haven't were red stag (frontal shot) and pig (bad shot placement).

In the end I think confidence is the main factor in any setup. If you are confident then you are going to be a routine killer

Yup
I killed a pig 12 weeks after my shoulder surgery with a 35 lb Browning micro Midas and a 400 grain arrow.
Complete pass through.

[rocky]

Originally Posted by IkemanTX

Well, with the current setup, the 300 spine is shooting very consistently tight holes...
do I spend the money to build out this setup and test broadhead flight, or do I work on getting everything tuned perfect before deciding on my arrow setup?


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Your bow needs to be right before you start testing arrows.

[IkemanTX]

Got thrown for a loop with this coronavirus crap and JUST got all the components ordered.

After hundreds of shots, I decided on the 250 spine Black Eagle Carnivore arrows (at 27.75”), a 100 grain stainless steel Ethics Archery insert, and a 315 grain Tuff Head single bevel broadhead. That is only 15 grains heavier up front than what I spent hours and hours working with last month. So, I am positive I will be able to tune in the extra 15 grains.

I need to replace my string so I will have the timing, limb strength, rest height, and nock height all re-done before final bareshaft tuning. It will be nice starting from absolute scratch with my final arrow setup.

I know this is overkill for Whitetails. I am hoping for overkill. As mentioned previously in this thread, I am looking for an arrow that will punch through vines without deflection, hit a deer that jumped a string on me, bust through the scapula, and still wreck the vitals. Deer aren’t stationary targets... they move, and as such I need to plan for worst case scenario.

Obviously the shot mentioned above isn’t something I will intentionally take, but again... worst case scenario.

Once I get everything in, I will assemble the arrows (insert tuned as close as I can get them), then I will paper tune the bow, then I will nock tune each arrow, then I will fletch them... the top few arrows get selected for broadheads.

I will only shoot enough broadhead shots to ensure good broadhead tuning... then after that, I will sharpen my broadheads to a razor’s edge and leave them be to until season. A quick touch up at the beginning of season, and a leather strop each hunt day, and I expect my broadheads to have downright scary effect on deer.

I guess I will update in a couple weeks when I get everything settled in.

Edit: I can’t spell... corrected that.

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[critter69]

Originally Posted by rocky

Why not use an arrow that weighs 1,000 grains or more? Seems like there is no negatives to super heavy, extremely high foc arrows. ? Where is the point of diminishing return?

Yep, if your going adult go adult. I’ve tried them to 1500 gr. just to see what all the hype is about. And if your sitting close to a feeder or up in tree over a travel route and your shooting 20-25 yards or less. I don’t see why the heavy arrow guys stop short of “ adult”. Spot and stalk 1500 gr. was not a good option. Nor was 900 or even 600. I find I have no issues with an arrow weight around 500 or even slightly less. Penetration is still great( with fixed or mech.) and trajectory is favorable.

[DRT]

I get pass through shots with a 400 spine arrow and a 26.5" draw length shooting Rage heads. Tuning is where most bows get short changed on performance.

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[lovemylegacy]

Hey if you want to go "adult" with your setup, that's great, just don't under sale speed with a lighter/ish arrow with a very sharp broadhead that is flying true. A lot of bowhunters use this setup with lots of success.


The debate on this rages on, I just hate it when one clan starts pissing on another clan....makes us look infantile. Zane has some very good points/proof, so he is worthy of a listen as is enewman and others, however if your setup is productive, why change it? I was falling into that trap, I backed out of it very slowly.

[rebelbow]

interesting read
I too have been watching a lot of Troy's videos.

[DLoop]

Don’t overthink this. There are obvious benefits to speed and weight. I’m generally concerned more about tuning and my proficiency with my bow.

[Biggs]

Tagged

[Code]

For those who have played around with FOC and different insert weights, prior to settling on a weight and gluing them in, how did you test? I was thinking a wrap of electrical tape around the base of the field point and insert would secure it enough to the shaft for a few shots and provide a true enough reading. Any other ideas?

Next question...would it work better to pick up the ranch fairy field point test kit and run them with the stock glued aluminum inserts to find that magic FOC combo? Yes, it puts the weight a bit further out whereas a heavier insert keeps some weight back. Just trying to find a simple way to test that also gives accurate results.

[Low Fence]

Put a small piece of plastic bag over arrow end and push insert in... it will hold it enough to hunt with!

As far as weight location all your doing is getting an inaccurate number.... that means squat anyway. Find/shoot what flies best and fits your needs... and if that’s 10% or 79% it don’t matter.

The way your going about finding weight is splitting hairs that don’t matter

[muddyfuzzy]

I wish I had been smart enough to sell people fields points as a “test kit” for profit......


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[dope hunter]

Im getting everything I need to build my arrows. Starting off with Black Eagle Carnivor 250's, Ethics Archery 125-200gn Outsert system, a Ethics Test Kit and 180gn Steelforce SS Phathead broadheads.

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[enewman]

Originally Posted by muddyfuzzy

I wish I had been smart enough to sell people fields points as a “test kit” for profit......


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Yes, me too. Problem is this method is flawed. Reason I stopped using using it and stopped teaching it. Few years back.

[IkemanTX]

Originally Posted by Code

For those who have played around with FOC and different insert weights, prior to settling on a weight and gluing them in, how did you test? I was thinking a wrap of electrical tape around the base of the field point and insert would secure it enough to the shaft for a few shots and provide a true enough reading. Any other ideas?

Next question...would it work better to pick up the ranch fairy field point test kit and run them with the stock glued aluminum inserts to find that magic FOC combo? Yes, it puts the weight a bit further out whereas a heavier insert keeps some weight back. Just trying to find a simple way to test that also gives accurate results.

I bought a couple of sacrifice arrows in different spines. The inserts had screw In weights as an option to add up to 100 grains. Then, I ran through different weight field tips up to 300 grains... found a spine/tip weight sweet spot for me and my bow at 400 grains up front on a 250 spine.

Then, I ordered the stuff to make a dozen of those arrows.


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[critter69]

Originally Posted by Code

For those who have played around with FOC and different insert weights, prior to settling on a weight and gluing them in, how did you test? I was thinking a wrap of electrical tape around the base of the field point and insert would secure it enough to the shaft for a few shots and provide a true enough reading. Any other ideas?

Next question...would it work better to pick up the ranch fairy field point test kit and run them with the stock glued aluminum inserts to find that magic FOC combo? Yes, it puts the weight a bit further out whereas a heavier insert keeps some weight back. Just trying to find a simple way to test that also gives accurate results.

That is one of the good things about gold tip shafts, they make the fact weights system that is so simple to change point weights it’s ridicules. You can add and remove weight at will, tuning and foc are good ways to “ play” around with it. Find what tunes best with your set up and just add weight to each shaft. Want to change it next week, remove or add and experiment again. It’s worth it, far easier then buying different weight inserts, and having to glue or anything, and better then the fairy field point test kit by a long shot.

[MnM]

Originally Posted by IkemanTX

I bought a couple of sacrifice arrows in different spines. The inserts had screw In weights as an option to add up to 100 grains. Then, I ran through different weight field tips up to 300 grains... found a spine/tip weight sweet spot for me and my bow at 400 grains up front on a 250 spine.

Then, I ordered the stuff to make a dozen of those arrows.


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I’m curious, what was your final setup and what broadhead did you pair with it?

[muddyfuzzy]

Originally Posted by critter69

That is one of the good things about gold tip shafts, they make the fact weights system that is so simple to change point weights it’s ridicules. You can add and remove weight at will, tuning and foc are good ways to “ play” around with it. Find what tunes best with your set up and just add weight to each shaft. Want to change it next week, remove or add and experiment again. It’s worth it, far easier then buying different weight inserts, and having to glue or anything, and better then the fairy field point test kit by a long shot.

Just to be clear, weight forward is not the same thing as tip weight. Most guys build FOC by adding insert weight NOT tip weight. Arrow A has 300 grains up front; 100 grains of tip weight and 200 grains of insert weight. Arrow B has the same 300 up front by way of 200 grains of tip weight and a 100 grains of insert weight. Arrow B will always have a higher % FOC, it’s just the way the math works. The KE and Mo numbers will be identical but the % FOC will be different.

That being said any weight is better than no weight at all and most buys like to shoot 100-125 grain tips so you get limited very quickly on how you can change the FOC or overall weight of a build. But if I sell you a “test kit” and tell you to go do some “testing” and you get some stupid results then we chalk it up to testing. It’s a little different when it just has to be right on a turn key build. People are busy, if they wanted to “test” stuff they would be QA guys or Engineers.

I think Eric hits on a big point in his previous response. He says he doesn’t “use or teach” that process anymore. What we are seeing here is the evolution of processes that only comes from a greater understanding of what actually going on when an arrow is actually loosed. Just speaking for myself I’m doing things differently today than I was 10 years ago and that’s the way it should be. Most people are just trying to make a buck and get ahead, see it for what it is and go to those who have the real knowledge.


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[IkemanTX]

Originally Posted by MnM

I’m curious, what was your final setup and what broadhead did you pair with it?

250 spine Black Eagle Carnivore,
100 grain stainless steel Ethics Archery insert
315 Grain Tuffhead Single Bevel
Fletchings yet to be decided.


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[bakin7005]

Originally Posted by IkemanTX

250 spine Black Eagle Carnivore,
100 grain stainless steel Ethics Archery insert
315 Grain Tuffhead Single Bevel
Fletchings yet to be decided.


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Any LDP's with the new arrows yet?

[critter69]

Originally Posted by lovemylegacy

Hey if you want to go "adult" with your setup, that's great, just don't under sale speed with a lighter/ish arrow with a very sharp broadhead that is flying true. A lot of bowhunters use this setup with lots of success.


The debate on this rages on, I just hate it when one clan starts pissing on another clan....makes us look infantile. Zane has some very good points/proof, so he is worthy of a listen as is enewman and others, however if your setup is productive, why change it? I was falling into that trap, I backed out of it very slowly.

Infantile, or even “presidential “

[Lone_Wolf]

"My ultimate goal is to be confident to take the kill zone shot, regardless of animal angle."

You need to just let that dream go bubba. This is bowhunting, and you have to wait for the animal to give you the right angle. You can take a deer at a lot of different angles if you're a good shot and know the animals anatomy, and where you can slide that arrow through. A lot of it has to do with how high strung the animal is and just knowing what you can get away with.

Or you can play it safe and just take high percentage broadside shots.

[ultrastealth]

Would you call this an "adult arrow"?
https://youtu.be/Cn98DojFo_I

[IkemanTX]

Originally Posted by bakin7005

Any LDP's with the new arrows yet?

Why’s an LDP?


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[Lone_Wolf]

Originally Posted by ultrastealth

Would you call this an "adult arrow"?
https://youtu.be/Cn98DojFo_I

Why’d they shoot a baby?

[dope hunter]

Originally Posted by Lone_Wolf

Why’d they shoot a baby?

Bwahahahaha

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[das7777]

Originally Posted by Low Fence

Cause it would turn the 20 yard feeder shot into a Par 3

Now that funny , no mater who you are!!

[muddyfuzzy]

Originally Posted by Lone_Wolf

"My ultimate goal is to be confident to take the kill zone shot, regardless of animal angle."

You need to just let that dream go bubba. This is bowhunting, and you have to wait for the animal to give you the right angle. You can take a deer at a lot of different angles if you're a good shot and know the animals anatomy, and where you can slide that arrow through. A lot of it has to do with how high strung the animal is and just knowing what you can get away with.

Or you can play it safe and just take high percentage broadside shots.

This statement doesn’t hold a lot of water. While I never tell anybody to take a shot outside their comfort zone, the right arrow setup with the correct broadhead can/will open up shot scenarios. One has to be on top of anatomy and practice these shots but they are achievable with the right approach. Head shots and butt hole shots are the only ones I stay away from, any other presentation and I will burn them down.


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