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Old 02-10-2020, 11:55 AM   #1
IkemanTX
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Default Time for adult arrows....

Iím finally giving in...

I am tired of a lack of penetration, Iím tired of chasing speed, and Iím tired of being afraid of a deerís shoulder. Iím going to sprinkle a little Ranch Fairy dust on my setup. If you donít know who he is, just search YouTube. He is a character, but presents a TON of information.

I backed my bow down to 60lbs a few years ago after recovering from a torn shoulder, but feel its time to go back to 70lbs and up the FOC and grain weight, as well as transition to single bevel broadheads.

I want to end up somewhere around 600gr-650gr total arrow weight with 20%+ FOC.

I know I need to test out several different tip weights on a couple different shaft spines. Would a couple (each) 300 spine and 250 spine arrows work for that? Iím thinking of doing 100gr inserts in them (bare shaft) and paper tuning through Ethics Archery field point test pack to find the best match. (The test pack has 2/ea 200gr, 225gr, 250gr, 275gr, 300gr)

My ultimate goal is to be confident to take the kill zone shot, regardless of animal angle.

Has anyone else gone through this process to find the best spine to tip weight?

Any suggestions beyond what Iíve already thought through?


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Old 02-10-2020, 11:57 AM   #2
Duckologist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IkemanTX View Post
Iím finally giving in...

I am tired of a lack of penetration, Iím tired of chasing speed, and Iím tired of being afraid of a deerís shoulder. Iím going to sprinkle a little Ranch Fairy dust on my setup. If you donít know who he is, just search YouTube. He is a character, but presents a TON of information.

I backed my bow down to 60lbs a few years ago after recovering from a torn shoulder, but feel its time to go back to 70lbs and up the FOC and grain weight, as well as transition to single bevel broadheads.

I want to end up somewhere around 600gr-650gr total arrow weight with 20%+ FOC.

I know I need to test out several different tip weights on a couple different shaft spines. Would a couple (each) 300 spine and 250 spine arrows work for that? Iím thinking of doing 100gr inserts in them (bare shaft) and paper tuning through Ethics Archery field point test pack to find the best match. (The test pack has 2/ea 200gr, 225gr, 250gr, 275gr, 300gr)

My ultimate goal is to be confident to take the kill zone shot, regardless of animal angle.

Has anyone else gone through this process to find the best spine to tip weight?

Any suggestions beyond what Iíve already thought through?


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I'd so you're on the right track
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Old 02-10-2020, 12:34 PM   #3
Muskles
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Troy helped me build my 592 grain arrows last year. He had me do what you're doing now. He really doesn't mind you reaching out to him, if you hit a snag. Good luck.
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Old 02-10-2020, 12:42 PM   #4
Big Ace
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What’s your DL? What bow are you shooting?
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Old 02-10-2020, 12:47 PM   #5
tradman
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I never gave any thought to my arrow setup until I switched over to traditional archery. It is crazy what a well tuned arrow can do out of a longbow with what would be considered a "slower" bow. I wish I would have taken the measures you are now when I still was shooting my compounds.
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Old 02-10-2020, 02:18 PM   #6
IkemanTX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ace View Post
Whatís your DL? What bow are you shooting?


I am shooting a PSE decree HD at 27Ē draw length


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Old 02-10-2020, 03:23 PM   #7
IkemanTX
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My buck 2 years ago was super close range from a 20 feet, I clipped spine from above, and only got another 3 inches of penetration. He was paralyzed from the front legs back. I stuck a second arrow though the lung cavity with him pinned to the ground, and still didnít get a full pass through.

I was (and still am) shooting a 400 spined carbon express ďhunterĒ 250. My 2018 buck was with a 100gr head, my 2019 buck was with a 125gr head. I added 25 grains thinking that would do something... how naive.

My buck this year died within 80-85 yards, but I attribute that to luck. He was shot from 18 feet up a tree at 12 yards while slightly quartering away. I hit extremely high and back, behind the diaphragm, and EXITED at the red dot in the picture below.



I BARELY clipped the top left lung. This deer should have lived for hours. The only thing that saved me was clipping an artery near the spine, and perforating the diaphragm.

What led to this...?

1) He came through fast. From first sighting, to arrow release, was probably 25 seconds max. I didnít have my bow in hand beforehand, I wasnít truly settled, and I shot through a nasty thick ďholeĒ, probably clipping some smilax vines. Aka... my point of impact wasnít perfect. See video below... this was my initial shooting lane, but I wasnít settled yet. The video starts within 5-10 seconds of my first visual, and I shot within a few seconds of the ending. My initial intention was to shoot the animal with the video rolling, but ďbest laid plansĒ and all....

https://youtu.be/yNfxwjLyrq0


2) I am shooting a 400 spine carbon express ďpile driver hunterĒ arrow, which neither ďpiledĒ nor ďdrivedĒ my deer. In fact, My arrows literally went wobbly by switching from 100gr to 125gr montech G5ís. Talk about noodle shafts... This arrow (I have now figured out) went to wobbling again once it hit the 3 ribs it ended up contacting. Every wobble stole penetrating power through both deflection and resistance with the muscle/connective tissue.

3) I didnít have enough total mass... I thought that my 480 grains would be enough, but after clipping 2 ribs on the way in and 1 rib on the way out... my arrow lost steam just after the blades cut the outside of the exit side of the deer. The arrow stalled while it plugged both holes. Thank goodness I didnít need to follow a blood trail, because the only blood that came out was through his nose/mouth. He broke the broadhead side of the arrow 45 yards after impact on a sapling he slammed into, and the nock side came out at 60 yards in some brush.

Take aways:
A lot of guys look at 480 grains as more than enough. BUT, I was afraid of the shoulder and pulled back too far into the body cavity to compensate. Even WAY back in the body cavity, where I only had ribs to deal with, I didnít have enough mass or cutting power with 480 grains of wobbly arrow shaft. This is with cut on contact fixed blades.... I canít imagine I would have recovered this deer with mechanicals. Most of my public land shooting lanes (since I canít legally, and donít, trim shooting lanes) are 10-15 yards wide at the max. If a buck is cruising for does, he will cover that 15 yards in a couple of seconds. I canít rely on a perfect shot, on a moving animal, over a 2-3 second time period. I NEED penetration power instead, so I can plant a ďcenter of massĒ shot on the vitals regardless of leg/shoulder placement.

I hope this has fully explained why I need a bulletproof, deep penetration, kill EVERYTHING kind of setup. I know that with PERFECT placement, rage heads cause massive damage... I just canít plan on perfect placement, or perfect conditions.

On a lighter note..... here is a better look at my first Pope and Young buck. And, he happens to be a public land Pope and Young. I kinda personally consider him equivalent to a guided/private land booner... I hope that doesnít offend anyone.





He went 132 7/8Ē gross and 130Ē net,
Thank GOD for mass measurements!
He kept his weight out through all of his tines, more like a Kansas deer than a southern oklahoma/Northern are as deer!




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Old 02-10-2020, 05:11 PM   #8
jds247
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I started down this rabbit hole last year.. just ordered some 250 spine arrows And the test pack. Right bow I'm shooting 490 gr. With 15 % foc. I just don't want to get so heavy that the arrow trajectory hinders me hunting in thick areas.. I don't hunt over a feeder with known yardage.
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Old 02-10-2020, 07:19 PM   #9
Low Fence
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Just a heads up:

@650g you will be hurling that log at around 215 FPS

You do you and have fun experimenting and learning. Like politics, the truth is in the middle. 400g and even lighter kill and pass through 1000000000 of animals. No amount of weight makes up for poor shooting or just bad luck.

If you hunt a known yardage “bait/feeder” your trajectory won’t be a big deal. But from experience I fear no deer or pig shoulder with box store broadheads light poundage and 28” draw (385gr arrow)... (testing 405 now, for flight purposes only)
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Old 02-11-2020, 07:56 AM   #10
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I shot the grizzly stick alaskans until I ran out of them. I just made a dozen arrows using the carbon express piledriver ds hunters. 635 grains total weight 18% foc.

350 shafts, 125 grain heads (cutthroat broadhead), 150 grains of insert, wraps, knocks and vanes are about 38 grains.

I'm shooting a 2009 martin cheetah set at 60 lbs and 26 or 27" draw length.

Shot over the chrono this weekend for a blazing 182 fps.


I downloaded the OT2Go Spine app to help make sure my set up would work.
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Old 02-11-2020, 08:21 AM   #11
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#1: I would get your bow and arrow tuned properly. Lack of penetration from tuning issues will get you know matter how much arrow mass weight you shoot.

#2: I wouldn’t be scared of a whitetail shoulder w/ 480 grains.

#3: With a short draw of 27”, you can build high FOC arrows with relative ease.

#4: For my hunting purposes, I would try to balance your arrow mass weight to speed ratio. I.E. shoot the heaviest arrow that you can within your own arrow trajectory limits.
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Old 02-11-2020, 08:46 AM   #12
muddyfuzzy
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I remember being in the same boat several years ago. Fun stuff but Iíve got no time for all the testing anymore, now I just know what works.


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Old 02-11-2020, 09:33 AM   #13
IkemanTX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ace View Post
#1: I would get your bow and arrow tuned properly. Lack of penetration from tuning issues will get you know matter how much arrow mass weight you shoot.

#2: I wouldnít be scared of a whitetail shoulder w/ 480 grains.

#3: With a short draw of 27Ē, you can build high FOC arrows with relative ease.

#4: For my hunting purposes, I would try to balance your arrow mass weight to speed ratio. I.E. shoot the heaviest arrow that you can within your own arrow trajectory limits.


My current setup is tuned REALLY well at 455grains, the 480 pushed the spine just enough to get some tear away on paper tuning, but not in a predicable direction. If Iím shooting the 100 grain broadheads/field tips it shoots bullets through paper.

With 2 penetration issues in a row on the main body cavity, I definitely wonít be trying out a scapula with this setup.

I completely agree that high FOC will be easier for me with my short draw. Bonus points for me!

I am expecting to end up around high 500ís to low 600ís grains on the high side, but would be willing to go as high as 650 if the arrow tunes and shoots better than the lower weights.

It will definitely end up shooting a lot slower than I currently shoot, but I donít see even 650 grains getting me too slow to effectively shoot to 35 yards. Worst case scenario, I run a 4th pin to get to 35 instead of my current 2 pins to 30.


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Old 02-11-2020, 10:04 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ace View Post
#1: I would get your bow and arrow tuned properly. Lack of penetration from tuning issues will get you know matter how much arrow mass weight you shoot.

#2: I wouldnít be scared of a whitetail shoulder w/ 480 grains.

#3: With a short draw of 27Ē, you can build high FOC arrows with relative ease.

#4: For my hunting purposes, I would try to balance your arrow mass weight to speed ratio. I.E. shoot the heaviest arrow that you can within your own arrow trajectory limits.
the good thing about shooting such a slow arrow is that deer are great at moving out of the way! so you won't have any penetration problems any more, of course this is because you will hit mostly air most of the time.
i shoot 53-58 pounds and about 300gr of arrow weight and i shoot the biggest modified home made mechanicals i can create, and i don't have penetration issues, my kids shoot far less energy also shoot mechanicals (search my user name) and they don't have any "issues" either
its less about whats pushing the broadhead and a hell of a lot more important whats in front of it.
before you listen to all of the junk about shooting herculean setups maybe just listen to what works for kids slaying deer with 13-14lbs of KE

tune you bow, shoot fast and shoot sharp that is the best recipe i know of

i was shooting 75-80lbs before i started helping my kids, then after i figured that out i thought why the heck would i shoot heavy when i have them by about 6-8" of draw length?
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Old 02-11-2020, 10:44 AM   #15
Texasboy_fitnes
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Definitely on the right track. Check out Grizzly sticks
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Old 02-11-2020, 12:32 PM   #16
IkemanTX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zanemanaggie View Post
the good thing about shooting such a slow arrow is that deer are great at moving out of the way! so you won't have any penetration problems any more, of course this is because you will hit mostly air most of the time.

i shoot 53-58 pounds and about 300gr of arrow weight and i shoot the biggest modified home made mechanicals i can create, and i don't have penetration issues, my kids shoot far less energy also shoot mechanicals (search my user name) and they don't have any "issues" either

its less about whats pushing the broadhead and a hell of a lot more important whats in front of it.

before you listen to all of the junk about shooting herculean setups maybe just listen to what works for kids slaying deer with 13-14lbs of KE



tune you bow, shoot fast and shoot sharp that is the best recipe i know of



i was shooting 75-80lbs before i started helping my kids, then after i figured that out i thought why the heck would i shoot heavy when i have them by about 6-8" of draw length?


I went through a mechanical phase... not going back to that based on personal experiences. I donít hate mechs in general, just donít like the ďall or nothingĒ kind of performance. ďShtuffĒ happens and shot placement isnít guaranteed on a live animal, regardless of how well someone shoots.


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Old 02-11-2020, 12:58 PM   #17
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There is no "shoulder" ...go straight up the leg. it forms a ">"and the shoulder blade is really high. aim straight up the leg.
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Old 02-11-2020, 01:03 PM   #18
rocky
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Congrats on the P&Y buck.
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Old 02-11-2020, 02:56 PM   #19
IkemanTX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjbtexas View Post
There is no "shoulder" ...go straight up the leg. it forms a ">"and the shoulder blade is really high. aim straight up the leg.


Let me be more specific,

Scapula and humerus... colloquially known as the ďshoulderĒ


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Old 02-11-2020, 02:57 PM   #20
IkemanTX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocky View Post
Congrats on the P&Y buck.


Thanks man! Itís my first, and really caught me off guard. Hoping to add to the collection over the next few years!


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Old 02-11-2020, 03:12 PM   #21
haas0311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IkemanTX View Post
My buck 2 years ago was super close range from a 20 feet, I clipped spine from above, and only got another 3 inches of penetration. He was paralyzed from the front legs back. I stuck a second arrow though the lung cavity with him pinned to the ground, and still didnít get a full pass through.

I was (and still am) shooting a 400 spined carbon express ďhunterĒ 250. My 2018 buck was with a 100gr head, my 2019 buck was with a 125gr head. I added 25 grains thinking that would do something... how naive.

My buck this year died within 80-85 yards, but I attribute that to luck. He was shot from 18 feet up a tree at 12 yards while slightly quartering away. I hit extremely high and back, behind the diaphragm, and EXITED at the red dot in the picture below.



I BARELY clipped the top left lung. This deer should have lived for hours. The only thing that saved me was clipping an artery near the spine, and perforating the diaphragm.

What led to this...?

1) He came through fast. From first sighting, to arrow release, was probably 25 seconds max. I didnít have my bow in hand beforehand, I wasnít truly settled, and I shot through a nasty thick ďholeĒ, probably clipping some smilax vines. Aka... my point of impact wasnít perfect. See video below... this was my initial shooting lane, but I wasnít settled yet. The video starts within 5-10 seconds of my first visual, and I shot within a few seconds of the ending. My initial intention was to shoot the animal with the video rolling, but ďbest laid plansĒ and all....

https://youtu.be/yNfxwjLyrq0


2) I am shooting a 400 spine carbon express ďpile driver hunterĒ arrow, which neither ďpiledĒ nor ďdrivedĒ my deer. In fact, My arrows literally went wobbly by switching from 100gr to 125gr montech G5ís. Talk about noodle shafts... This arrow (I have now figured out) went to wobbling again once it hit the 3 ribs it ended up contacting. Every wobble stole penetrating power through both deflection and resistance with the muscle/connective tissue.

3) I didnít have enough total mass... I thought that my 480 grains would be enough, but after clipping 2 ribs on the way in and 1 rib on the way out... my arrow lost steam just after the blades cut the outside of the exit side of the deer. The arrow stalled while it plugged both holes. Thank goodness I didnít need to follow a blood trail, because the only blood that came out was through his nose/mouth. He broke the broadhead side of the arrow 45 yards after impact on a sapling he slammed into, and the nock side came out at 60 yards in some brush.

Take aways:
A lot of guys look at 480 grains as more than enough. BUT, I was afraid of the shoulder and pulled back too far into the body cavity to compensate. Even WAY back in the body cavity, where I only had ribs to deal with, I didnít have enough mass or cutting power with 480 grains of wobbly arrow shaft. This is with cut on contact fixed blades.... I canít imagine I would have recovered this deer with mechanicals. Most of my public land shooting lanes (since I canít legally, and donít, trim shooting lanes) are 10-15 yards wide at the max. If a buck is cruising for does, he will cover that 15 yards in a couple of seconds. I canít rely on a perfect shot, on a moving animal, over a 2-3 second time period. I NEED penetration power instead, so I can plant a ďcenter of massĒ shot on the vitals regardless of leg/shoulder placement.

I hope this has fully explained why I need a bulletproof, deep penetration, kill EVERYTHING kind of setup. I know that with PERFECT placement, rage heads cause massive damage... I just canít plan on perfect placement, or perfect conditions.

On a lighter note..... here is a better look at my first Pope and Young buck. And, he happens to be a public land Pope and Young. I kinda personally consider him equivalent to a guided/private land booner... I hope that doesnít offend anyone.





He went 132 7/8Ē gross and 130Ē net,
Thank GOD for mass measurements!
He kept his weight out through all of his tines, more like a Kansas deer than a southern oklahoma/Northern are as deer!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I recommend you get with Muddyfuzzy on here. He built me some kick A arrows that are right around 660 gr with a 125gr broadhead. I am shooting Grim Reaper Carni4's, Veteran VIP's, and Annihilator heads. I used the Annihilators last season and brought down 2 deer with them, resharpened and are back in the quiver. He will get you set up right!!
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Old 02-13-2020, 01:21 PM   #22
enewman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zanemanaggie View Post
the good thing about shooting such a slow arrow is that deer are great at moving out of the way! so you won't have any penetration problems any more, of course this is because you will hit mostly air most of the time.
i shoot 53-58 pounds and about 300gr of arrow weight and i shoot the biggest modified home made mechanicals i can create, and i don't have penetration issues, my kids shoot far less energy also shoot mechanicals (search my user name) and they don't have any "issues" either
its less about whats pushing the broadhead and a hell of a lot more important whats in front of it.
before you listen to all of the junk about shooting herculean setups maybe just listen to what works for kids slaying deer with 13-14lbs of KE

tune you bow, shoot fast and shoot sharp that is the best recipe i know of

i was shooting 75-80lbs before i started helping my kids, then after i figured that out i thought why the heck would i shoot heavy when i have them by about 6-8" of draw length?
the op is wanting to increase his set up. it's nice when people join in to help. it's not nice to come in and trash the op.

what works for you may not work for others.

as far as junk.

let's see. in physics we all learn, to make an object harder to stop we increase mass.

with just a touch of research, we can look at aeronautics and see why FOC can be a factor in flight.

with research, we can read Dr. Ashby's studies, by the way, this is the only study ever done for arrow lethality. it has never been proven wrong.

an arrow that doesn't have a complete passthrough is a failure in design.

"The only con to heavy arrows is the trajectory. the only pro to a light arrow is the trajectory"
Eric
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Old 02-13-2020, 01:30 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by zanemanaggie View Post
its less about whats pushing the broadhead and a hell of a lot more important whats in front of it.
This can be your opinion if you choose but it's patently false and just because it's the best recipe that you know of does not mean it's THE best recipe. Maybe it's the only recipe you've tried?
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Old 02-13-2020, 02:01 PM   #24
muddyfuzzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zanemanaggie View Post
the good thing about shooting such a slow arrow is that deer are great at moving out of the way! so you won't have any penetration problems any more, of course this is because you will hit mostly air most of the time.

i shoot 53-58 pounds and about 300gr of arrow weight and i shoot the biggest modified home made mechanicals i can create, and i don't have penetration issues, my kids shoot far less energy also shoot mechanicals (search my user name) and they don't have any "issues" either

its less about whats pushing the broadhead and a hell of a lot more important whats in front of it.

before you listen to all of the junk about shooting herculean setups maybe just listen to what works for kids slaying deer with 13-14lbs of KE



tune you bow, shoot fast and shoot sharp that is the best recipe i know of



i was shooting 75-80lbs before i started helping my kids, then after i figured that out i thought why the heck would i shoot heavy when i have them by about 6-8" of draw length?


I donít even understand what this means.....


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Old 02-13-2020, 03:14 PM   #25
enewman
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Originally Posted by muddyfuzzy View Post
I donít even understand what this means.....


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it means your stupid for shooting heavy arrows, teaching people about heavy arrows.

haha hahaha.
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Old 02-13-2020, 03:57 PM   #26
JLivi1224
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Experts on here crack me up.

PLENTYYYYYYY OF DEER HAVE BEEN KILLED AT 200ish FPS.
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Old 02-13-2020, 04:05 PM   #27
ChickenWilly
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Yes trajectory is affected but the extra weight also helps quiet your bow down. I had a group of blowing does come through this season and I let one rip at 45 yards and none of them even flinched till the arrow had already passed through her.(I generally keep my shots less than 30 but she was asking for it lol ) I was only shooting 62 lbs at 239fps. Speed is definitely not everything. It doesnt hurt by any means but it's not the only piece of the puzzle.

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Old 02-13-2020, 04:08 PM   #28
JLivi1224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenWilly View Post
Yes trajectory is affected but the extra weight also helps quiet your bow down. I had a group of blowing does come through this season and I let one rip at 45 yards and none of them even flinched till the arrow had already passed through her.(I generally keep my shots less than 30 but she was asking for it lol ) I was only shooting 62 lbs at 239fps. Speed is definitely not everything. It doesnt hurt by any means but it's not the only piece of the puzzle.

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LIES!!!! give me 330 or give me death!!!
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Old 02-13-2020, 04:26 PM   #29
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I think there is more to it than just arrow weight. Theres a lot of factors and I cant see any reason why you cant blow through deer with your current arrow weight. Get it tuned perfectly and shoot a better broadhead (montecs are not known for being sharp or durable). Its been a long time but when I was a kid I shot 60 pounds and a 400 something grain arrow and got passthroughs on everything. Not to mention now Im shooting a 480grain arrow out of a 60# recurve and getting passthroughs on elk and sheep which are way thicker than any whitetail.

I think its really easy to get off in the weeds on calculating foc and getting a super heavy arrow when the basics (arrow flight, broadhead sharpness, and broadhead/arrow integrity) are what really need the focus.

Last edited by Felix40; 02-13-2020 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 02-13-2020, 04:27 PM   #30
jds247
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I was in the bow shop last week and a guy was giving all the reasons for shooting a light arrow.. I finally ask what he was shooting. Come to find out my 500 grain arrow is 5 fps slower than his 360 grain arrow.
I think it all depends on your set up. Trad guys kill a lot of critters around 180 fps..
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Old 02-13-2020, 04:58 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by JLivi1224 View Post
Experts on here crack me up.

PLENTYYYYYYY OF DEER HAVE BEEN KILLED AT 200ish FPS.
what can this be? it must be fake. the deer will be gone before that slow arrow gets to them. hahaha

whats a good icon for sarcasm
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Old 02-13-2020, 08:05 PM   #32
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Everyone wants ADULT arrows now days. What about an ADULT bow to shoot them out of??

Mass is where itís at. I prefer mass. My son shoots lighter so he can have a little speed on his side since heís young and not the stillest person in a tree. And he keeps his shots under 20.
Iíve seen both ends of the spectrum example:

My son shoots a PSE Dna, 47#, 25Ēdl, 392gr arrow, Solid Broadhead. Heís bow is shooting 220fps, if I remember correctly, shoot 2 hogs, not bigs ones 60-75lbers. Got pass through a on them both. His bow is pretty quite with this setup.

I shoot a PSE Full Throttle, 64#, 29Ēdl, 545gr arrow, what ever broadhead I have laying around, shooting 267fps. I havenít had anything stop an arrow yet.

I will building some Fmj Dangerous Game arrows shortly that should come out around 700gr.


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Old 02-13-2020, 09:33 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by enewman View Post
the op is wanting to increase his set up. it's nice when people join in to help. it's not nice to come in and trash the op.

what works for you may not work for others.

as far as junk.

let's see. in physics we all learn, to make an object harder to stop we increase mass.

with just a touch of research, we can look at aeronautics and see why FOC can be a factor in flight.

with research, we can read Dr. Ashby's studies, by the way, this is the only study ever done for arrow lethality. it has never been proven wrong.

an arrow that doesn't have a complete passthrough is a failure in design.

"The only con to heavy arrows is the trajectory. the only pro to a light arrow is the trajectory"
Eric
... so by physics standards: if I shoot a deer in the brisket head on and it doesn’t exit the balloon knot... it was the arrows fault?

I’ll take the blame for every animal I’ve lost. 100% were due to shot placement. No 25-100000 gr would have made a difference.


And IF we are talking; deer & hogs WITH modern compounds it’s all personal flavor. If you can’t kill em with that.... it ain’t the physics

Perfect flight with the least amount of bandaids possible and an adequate SHARP broadhead will win

Again. The truth is in the middle. But you do you and I won’t hate
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Old 02-13-2020, 09:38 PM   #34
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Why not use an arrow that weighs 1,000 grains or more? Seems like there is no negatives to super heavy, extremely high foc arrows. ? Where is the point of diminishing return?
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Old 02-13-2020, 09:43 PM   #35
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Why not use an arrow that weighs 1,000 grains or more? Seems like there is no negatives to super heavy, extremely high foc arrows. ? Where is the point of diminishing return?
Cause it would turn the 20 yard feeder shot into a Par 3
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Old 02-13-2020, 09:54 PM   #36
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Cause it would turn the 20 yard feeder shot into a Par 3
If I cant kill a deer with a 480 grain arrow, I will quit bow hunting. Lindy has killed more P&Y deer with her 300 grain arrow than most that have replied on this thread. Itís not really as complicated as the internet seems to make it.
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:20 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by rocky View Post
Why not use an arrow that weighs 1,000 grains or more? Seems like there is no negatives to super heavy, extremely high foc arrows. ? Where is the point of diminishing return?
If you did some research you would indeed find the point of diminishing returns. No one is advocating crazy heavy 1,000 grain arrows. Just saying, especially to the original poster, that you will see better results with a 500-600 grain arrow vs a 300 grain arrow. No need in getting upset. I mean would it hurt to try something different to see what results you get? You're already set up so if you don't like the results of your experiment couldn't you easily go back?
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Old 02-14-2020, 11:02 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Duckologist View Post
If you did some research you would indeed find the point of diminishing returns. No one is advocating crazy heavy 1,000 grain arrows. Just saying, especially to the original poster, that you will see better results with a 500-600 grain arrow vs a 300 grain arrow. No need in getting upset. I mean would it hurt to try something different to see what results you get? You're already set up so if you don't like the results of your experiment couldn't you easily go back?

Rocky isnít trying anything new lol....


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Old 02-14-2020, 11:16 AM   #39
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From what I've seen of Troy's videos (I fully admit to not having seen all of them), he puts zero emphasis on bow tuning. If your bow isn't tuned, his arrow tuning stuff will lead to nothing be frustration for you. I agree with most of the rest of it. His laugh does give me the creeps though.
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Old 02-14-2020, 11:33 AM   #40
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From what I've seen of Troy's videos (I fully admit to not having seen all of them), he puts zero emphasis on bow tuning. If your bow isn't tuned, his arrow tuning stuff will lead to nothing be frustration for you. I agree with most of the rest of it. His laugh does give me the creeps though.
He's got videos on bow tuning. So do a thousand other videos on youtube. Everyone knows to start with a tuned bow.
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Old 02-14-2020, 12:45 PM   #41
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He's got videos on bow tuning. So do a thousand other videos on youtube. Everyone knows to start with a tuned bow.
although I'm 100% with you. you would be surprised how many people have no clue how to tune.
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Old 02-14-2020, 12:51 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Low Fence View Post
... so by physics standards: if I shoot a deer in the brisket head on and it doesnít exit the balloon knot... it was the arrows fault?

Iíll take the blame for every animal Iíve lost. 100% were due to shot placement. No 25-100000 gr would have made a difference.


And IF we are talking; deer & hogs WITH modern compounds itís all personal flavor. If you canít kill em with that.... it ainít the physics

Perfect flight with the least amount of bandaids possible and an adequate SHARP broadhead will win

Again. The truth is in the middle. But you do you and I wonít hate
if you have the correct build it would come out the ***. I don't even shoot an arrow for that build.

most animals lost due to shot placement. that's a given. but you can build arrows for bad shot placement.
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Old 02-14-2020, 12:56 PM   #43
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He's got videos on bow tuning. So do a thousand other videos on youtube. Everyone knows to start with a tuned bow.
Well, he very clearly states that people spend too much time tuning their bows rather than their arrows.
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Old 02-14-2020, 12:56 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by rocky View Post
If I cant kill a deer with a 480 grain arrow, I will quit bow hunting. Lindy has killed more P&Y deer with her 300-grain arrow than most that have replied on this thread. Itís not really as complicated as the internet seems to make it.
no one has ever said you cannot kill with a 480gr arrow. I've killed with <400gr arrows.

problem with the post. most people don't know or understand the physics of it. most will never learn.

a person that is killing deer with 400gr arrows and getting pass-throughs are not the people coming to me for help. or posting on sights for help. it's the people shooting a 400gr. that is having problems. I bet over half of the fixes I do we never increase arrow mass. We change the broadhead type.
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Old 02-14-2020, 12:59 PM   #45
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Well, he very clearly states that people spend too much time tuning their bows rather than their arrows.
that's what I used to teach a few years back, still do sometimes. but in general. a person needs to tune there bow. In a few years, ranch fairy will have different videos out. hahaha

one of the biggest problems in tuning arrows is making sure the bow is set correctly. if it is then you can still tune the arrow, but if done correctly you can shoot a gambit of spines with good results.
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Old 02-14-2020, 01:30 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Duckologist View Post
If you did some research you would indeed find the point of diminishing returns. No one is advocating crazy heavy 1,000 grain arrows. Just saying, especially to the original poster, that you will see better results with a 500-600 grain arrow vs a 300 grain arrow. No need in getting upset. I mean would it hurt to try something different to see what results you get? You're already set up so if you don't like the results of your experiment couldn't you easily go back?
1,000 grain arrow was sarcasm. In the last 3 years, I have experimented,(on animals) 3 different arrow builds. My point is, if the op is not shooting through whitetails with a 480 grain arrow, there is another issue that needs to be addressed, then, if he still chooses to go heavy due to this heavy, high foc fad going on currently, thatís up to him.
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Old 02-14-2020, 01:32 PM   #47
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although I'm 100% with you. you would be surprised how many people have no clue how to tune.
Oh no sir, I would not be surprised at all
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Old 02-14-2020, 06:17 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Felix40 View Post
I think there is more to it than just arrow weight. Theres a lot of factors and I cant see any reason why you cant blow through deer with your current arrow weight. Get it tuned perfectly and shoot a better broadhead (montecs are not known for being sharp or durable). Its been a long time but when I was a kid I shot 60 pounds and a 400 something grain arrow and got passthroughs on everything. Not to mention now Im shooting a 480grain arrow out of a 60# recurve and getting passthroughs on elk and sheep which are way thicker than any whitetail.

I think its really easy to get off in the weeds on calculating foc and getting a super heavy arrow when the basics (arrow flight, broadhead sharpness, and broadhead/arrow integrity) are what really need the focus.


Bow was bare shaft paper tuned to clean hole punches with the 100gr head. It drives tacks as is. I canít shoot the same dot 30yards and shorter without destroying nocks and fletchings. Tuning isnít the issue.

Montecís arenít sharp out of the box, but really nothing is. They were hand sharpened a week prior to killing my buck. They donít hold edges all that well, but as far as durability they outclass their price range.

I think my biggest energy loss is the 400 spine arrow flexes too much on impact.


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Old 02-14-2020, 06:30 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Low Fence View Post
... so by physics standards: if I shoot a deer in the brisket head on and it doesnít exit the balloon knot... it was the arrows fault?

Iíll take the blame for every animal Iíve lost. 100% were due to shot placement. No 25-100000 gr would have made a difference.


And IF we are talking; deer & hogs WITH modern compounds itís all personal flavor. If you canít kill em with that.... it ainít the physics

Perfect flight with the least amount of bandaids possible and an adequate SHARP broadhead will win

Again. The truth is in the middle. But you do you and I wonít hate


1) I have never lost a deer, thank goodness.

2)shot placement is NEVER guaranteed. This isnít target shooting, animals move.

And I agree, different strokes for different folks. I used to run light and fast with mechanicals, then moved to mid weight with cut on contact, and now Iím going to a stiff, heavyweight setup with single bevel.


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Old 02-14-2020, 06:40 PM   #50
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My point is, if the op is not shooting through whitetails with a 480 grain arrow, there is another issue that needs to be addressed, then, if he still chooses to go heavy due to this heavy, high foc fad going on currently, thatís up to him.

So Rock, I just have to ask...... how long does something have to be around to not be considered a ďfadĒ as you describe it? Could it be people are delving into the science and/or physics of arrow lethality more than the previous generation of bowhunters? Could it be that the information is more widely available and accessible to folks today than it was 10 years ago? I think most of us that have been here a few years know your position on the subject and the general negative feedback you present in regards to more aggressive arrow setups, I know I am. I concede the fact that there are a variety of factors that impact lethality with modern archery equipment but to arbitrarily write off what science has proven to be fact is just downright silly. I often wonder what it would take to legitimize the concept for you but then I come back to reality and realize I donít care.




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