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Old 12-28-2019, 08:43 PM   #1
K. Lane
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Default Lesson learned

My 16 year old learned a lesson today. We were at the lease trying to get an axis, blackbuck...or just some kind of exotic. We had zero success but another guy was there and he shot a nice fat doe and brought it back to hang it up and clean it.
He got it skinned an the front shoulders off and back straps off. He trimmed the neck and then split it open to get to the tenders and he was going to take the ribs as well. As he was taking the innards out, his wife was saying ďeeww gross, thatís weird, whatís this part whatís that part, etc....
She pointed to an object and said ďwhatís thatĒ and he said ďitís her bladder and good lord itís fullĒ
I was just hanging around doin this and cleaning up that but had to stop and tell him (much to his shock and I thought she was gonna pass out) ďummmmm, thatís not her bladder and itís not full of urine, that is her uterus and that is amniotic fluid and an embryoĒ
I picked it up and told my son ďThis....this right here is why I stress to you to take your doeís early in the seasonĒ

He got the message

I took pics to show my other kids to help drive that point home but I hesitate to post them here
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Old 12-28-2019, 08:47 PM   #2
randal
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I’ve seen this in doe late in the season, actually had a deer in there..
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Old 12-28-2019, 08:48 PM   #3
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Well, I must be dumb.. What's the message?
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Old 12-28-2019, 08:52 PM   #4
K. Lane
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Well, I must be dumb.. What's the message?
Well the lesson I wanted him to learn was that if you kill a doe late in the season you are more than likely killing at least 2 deer
Yes, I know if you kill em early they wonít breed and in essence you are still eliminating more than just the doe from the herd but at least there isnít a viable embryo involved


May be a screwed up way to look at it but it is the way I look at it and want my kids to understand it to
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Old 12-28-2019, 08:55 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randal View Post
Iíve seen this in doe late in the season, actually had a deer in there..

Definitely a recognizable embryo in there. If enough folks want the pics, Iíll post em
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Old 12-28-2019, 08:57 PM   #6
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Hunted axis for years and they are always pregnant....really doesn't matter what time of the year
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Old 12-28-2019, 09:27 PM   #7
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I don't like it but don't see how it makes a logical difference.
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Old 12-28-2019, 09:28 PM   #8
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Killing an unbred doe vs a bred doe has the exact same effect on the deer herd. Thereís literally no difference.




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Old 12-28-2019, 09:32 PM   #9
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Better than a full term fawn.


I had a co worker who thought he was shooting a really fat doe, on a Thanks Giving weekend in Llano back in the 1980s.
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Old 12-28-2019, 09:35 PM   #10
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Tomato /tomato.

Zero net effect.
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Old 12-28-2019, 09:40 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Bullseye07 View Post
Killing an unbred doe vs a bred doe has the exact same effect on the deer herd. Thereís literally no difference.

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Really?

You kill a doe early and she wonít have a fawn (or two) next fall but if you kill the same doe later in the year then she wonít have a fawn...

I never understood the logic either.

A dead doe will not produce any more offspring no matter what time she is killed. I have hunted on an MLD on doe hunts and the biologist usually cut open the uterus of a doe no matter the time of year. One doe I killed very early in the season had twin fawns about an inch long. I guess if I would have killed her a few weeks later, it would have been more obvious but she would have been no more pregnant.
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Old 12-28-2019, 09:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvc184 View Post
Really?



You kill a doe early and she wonít have a fawn (or two) next fall but if you kill the same doe later in the year then she wonít have a fawn...



Yes really. You just explained it yourself.




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Old 12-28-2019, 09:47 PM   #13
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I agree with yíall that it makes no difference it just SEEMS ( I know it makes no sense) different when there is a 6 or 7 inch embryo in there
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Old 12-28-2019, 09:48 PM   #14
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Seems like a pointless message to teach the kid
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Old 12-28-2019, 09:50 PM   #15
K. Lane
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Originally Posted by TxAg View Post
Seems like a pointless message to teach the kid
Good thing he ainít your kid I guess. Iím sure a lot of what you teach your kids is pointless as well
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Old 12-28-2019, 09:53 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K. Lane View Post
Good thing he ainít your kid I guess. Iím sure a lot of what you teach your kids is pointless as well


You just said you agreed that it doesnít make a difference. So what is the message youíre trying to teach?


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Old 12-28-2019, 09:53 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by K. Lane View Post
Good thing he ainít your kid I guess. Iím sure a lot of what you teach your kids is pointless as well
You just agreed in this very thread that killing a doe early season or late season accomplishes the same thing. It "seems" different is not relevant

I'm glad you have your kid out hunting. I'm sure you're a great dad, and I hate that so many kids have crappy parents these days. I guess I just don't see the point of this thread. Hope yall have some luck in the morning!
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Old 12-28-2019, 11:10 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Bullseye07 View Post
Yes really. You just explained it yourself.


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I thought the sarcasm was obvious and saying that I never understood the logic overcame any doubt.

Apparently not.
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Old 12-28-2019, 11:28 PM   #19
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..... unless you were doing the same and I missed it.

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Old 12-28-2019, 11:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K. Lane View Post
I agree with yíall that it makes no difference it just SEEMS ( I know it makes no sense) different when there is a 6 or 7 inch embryo in there
Bonus, those are the ones you wrap in bacon.

What hurts is an early season doe whoís fawn walks out after the shot and watches you load up momma.
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Old 12-28-2019, 11:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvc184 View Post
I thought the sarcasm was obvious and saying that I never understood the logic overcame any doubt.



Apparently not.


I think Iím just too thick headed to see it lol


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Old 12-28-2019, 11:36 PM   #22
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The way I look at it is this. Not every doe gets bred every year; so therefore if you shoot a doe before she is bred another doe could be bred in her place. My two cents worth.
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Old 12-28-2019, 11:48 PM   #23
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I actually prefer to shoot does later in the year. A doe early in the year may still have a suckling fawn reliant on her, and I don’t want to lose a fawn. A doe late in the year may have been bred, but fresh born fawns have a very high likelihood of succumbing to nature with predators and other perils when it’s not hunting season, so I don’t see that loss of shooting a doe that has been bred as impactful as a fawn early in the season that may have needed a few more weeks to be independent losing its mother. Shoot her bred, or shoot her not bred, and her output for the year is the same.
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Old 12-29-2019, 12:13 AM   #24
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Meh, shot them early or late same result. Dead doe. In some counties taking out a bred doe is actually better for the herd in that a lot of people shoot 0 does. Therefore the ratio is like 18:1.


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Old 12-29-2019, 12:18 AM   #25
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Had a female family member who quit hunting because she shot a bred doe late in the season a few months after she’d had a miscarriage and it messed her up pretty bad for awhile, and she still doesn’t hunt 25 years later after being a serious hunter for several years. But other than possibly upsetting someone, there’s really no difference to the herd if you shoot a doe early or late.
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Old 12-29-2019, 01:57 AM   #26
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Does this mean if a woman gets her tubes tied it's the same as having an abortion?
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Old 12-29-2019, 02:08 AM   #27
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I shoot them in late November because I use them as live decoys. Taking a future deer out of the population is the same to me early or late. I did shoot one the first day of bow season that had her fawn with her. I couldn't hunt the stand for a while because the fawn hung around calling for momma.
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Old 12-29-2019, 05:45 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvc184 View Post
I thought the sarcasm was obvious and saying that I never understood the logic overcame any doubt.

Apparently not.



It was obvious to ALMOST everyone
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Old 12-29-2019, 07:28 AM   #29
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Iíll strategically shoot does earlier in the season that still have their buck fawns hanging around, but thatís the only benefit I really see to taking them earlier in the season.

Itís not uncommon to find twins the size of large squirrels during the later antlerless seasons, but other than possibly being traumatic to someone not expecting it there is no harm and no net difference in herd dynamics that I can see.


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Old 12-29-2019, 08:09 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoiled_TN_boy View Post
Does this mean if a woman gets her tubes tied it's the same as having an abortion?
If you had put a smiley after this, I'd have been totally on board with your sarcasm.
Since you didn't, and if you were actually trying to make a point of some kind, it's just a ridiculous question, akin to comparing apples to automobiles

Last edited by HeyMikey; 12-29-2019 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 12-29-2019, 08:55 AM   #31
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Killed a doe on a late season TPWD antlerless hunt

Biologist pulled embryo and measured it and got a real good idea of the time doe had been bred


Only disadvantage I see to killing any doe after the rut is if you think doe was bred by a buck that you want to continue his genetic influence

Can be a shock to new or non-hunters to see
I can certainly see where it would be upsetting to the lady above who had recently had a miscarriage
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Old 12-29-2019, 09:09 AM   #32
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Only liberals kill does after November, ‘cuz ‘bortion.
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Old 12-29-2019, 11:48 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wechebuck View Post
The way I look at it is this. Not every doe gets bred every year; so therefore if you shoot a doe before she is bred another doe could be bred in her place. My two cents worth.
James Kroll had an article that explained this very clearly. It makes a difference.
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Old 12-29-2019, 11:54 AM   #34
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Makes no difference when you shoot them in my mind however, I don’t like cleaning them and seeing the embryos in there. It’s all psychological but it kind of makes me a touch sad. Because of that I try to get them early but if needed, would shoot one late
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Old 12-29-2019, 12:08 PM   #35
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Had this debate last night. Either way you are killing a doe that will have babies next year.
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Old 12-29-2019, 12:17 PM   #36
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Any deer (or animal) killed, is a deer that can't have (or father) babies..........Biology 101
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Old 12-29-2019, 12:20 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elhefe View Post
Makes no difference when you shoot them in my mind however, I donít like cleaning them and seeing the embryos in there. Itís all psychological but it kind of makes me a touch sad. Because of that I try to get them early but if needed, would shoot one late

This is kind of the point I was making before the post kinda went a bit south in my opinion but i am sure it was my verbiage that failed to get my point across

The lesson I was trying to teach him that it isnít just a dead deer, his pulling the trigger or letting an arrow fly has repercussions that effect things well past that moment and unless he misses... its repercussions that canít be changed. I know it doesnít effect the herd anymore than shooting them early but it is a harsh (to some anyway) visual reminder that it is more than just an old doe laying there dead. That is the lesson that I was trying to pass on to him

I know itís probably still as clear as mud and there are some that will think that my attempted lesson is pointless and my thoughts and the way I see things are not relevant
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Old 12-29-2019, 12:38 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K. Lane View Post
This is kind of the point I was making before the post kinda went a bit south in my opinion but i am sure it was my verbiage that failed to get my point across

The lesson I was trying to teach him that it isnít just a dead deer, his pulling the trigger or letting an arrow fly has repercussions that effect things well past that moment and unless he misses... its repercussions that canít be changed. I know it doesnít effect the herd anymore than shooting them early but it is a harsh (to some anyway) visual reminder that it is more than just an old doe laying there dead. That is the lesson that I was trying to pass on to him

I know itís probably still as clear as mud and there are some that will think that my attempted lesson is pointless and my thoughts and the way I see things are not relevant
I think the majority got it but like to pile on for theatrical effect! Your kid and you know how to lead him in this world. Carry on!!!
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Old 12-29-2019, 01:26 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K. Lane View Post
This is kind of the point I was making before the post kinda went a bit south in my opinion but i am sure it was my verbiage that failed to get my point across



The lesson I was trying to teach him that it isnít just a dead deer, his pulling the trigger or letting an arrow fly has repercussions that effect things well past that moment and unless he misses... its repercussions that canít be changed. I know it doesnít effect the herd anymore than shooting them early but it is a harsh (to some anyway) visual reminder that it is more than just an old doe laying there dead. That is the lesson that I was trying to pass on to him



I know itís probably still as clear as mud and there are some that will think that my attempted lesson is pointless and my thoughts and the way I see things are not relevant


Youíre good. I think many took your OP as an attempt to make a debatable management-related point.

You have since made it pretty clear that your point was one of unintended consequences.


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Old 12-29-2019, 02:00 PM   #40
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In my area in Southeast Louisiana it is state law that you cannot kill does until October 15th because the fawns are born so late in the summer they need their mom to survive early bow season.....just saying.
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Old 12-29-2019, 02:19 PM   #41
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Quote:
Tomato /tomato.

Zero net effect.
Exactly right.

If you're going to teach your children something teach them something that matters.
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Old 12-29-2019, 03:23 PM   #42
K. Lane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tx_Wader View Post
Exactly right.

If you're going to teach your children something teach them something that matters.
Wow
What a ****in ******nozzle
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Old 12-29-2019, 03:24 PM   #43
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..

Last edited by K. Lane; 12-29-2019 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 12-29-2019, 03:28 PM   #44
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this thread has made a hilarious turn.

smh
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Old 12-29-2019, 03:30 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by K. Lane View Post
Wow
What a ****in ******nozzle

Do you even have kids and are they all cock lickers like you
Goodness. I never had a teacher that talked like that.
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Old 12-29-2019, 03:45 PM   #46
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Quote:
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Wow
What a ****in ******nozzle
If you have not already realized it...there are a number of real tools on here. The ignore function is wonderful.
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Old 12-29-2019, 03:52 PM   #47
K. Lane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flywise View Post
If you have not already realized it...there are a number of real tools on here. The ignore function is wonderful.
Yeah... I forget about that jewel
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Old 12-29-2019, 04:17 PM   #48
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Some of you fellas don’t let anything go. Y’all this worked up in real life!?
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Old 12-29-2019, 04:22 PM   #49
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Default Tp&w needs to learn a lesson

They want you to shoot does that are bred out
Itís a special extended season take advantage of it or donít
Itís population control
I wish they would get this season open down in places like goliad and north of Victoria 20 to 1 ratio
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Old 12-29-2019, 04:31 PM   #50
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Goodness. I never had a teacher that talked like that.
Lmao
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