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Old 12-31-2019, 08:20 PM   #201
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shows what you do not know, i was a officer at Beaumont for 30 years ( all of them on the street), 26 years a firearms instructor, the lead officer in the department issuing rifles, drew firearms courses and assisted with ammo selections and training scenarios, 25 years a training officer, the only officer ever voted onto the swat team without a tryout, even though i declined the invite i attended swat member only firearms schools, street survival schools taught by gun site instructors, competed and won gold and silver the in the state police Olympics with handgun,,, never lost a match for accuracy or speed,,, i am now retired and head of the security detail at my church, i did not volunteer i was asked to be the head,,, i fired 5 rounds on duty on attacking dogs, 5 hits, ( 3 of those dogs at once) i assisted in close quarters knife attack training and was the only officer who could shoot an attacker in less than 21 feet every time, and i did it from 8 feet,,,, from the holster... i have been a Christian for 48 of my 60 years on this earth, i am a published author of faith based poetry,,,

i have have hands on experience in things like this,, you have what,,, your opinion..... and on top of all that i said nothing derogatory about the people involved,,,

and you know nothing but your idea of what is real, i have been in some serious situations you can not begin to comprehend, i have no doubt my understanding of shepherds and sheep is far beyond your comprehension along with having reviewed and studied many hundreds of shootings,,,

so your opinion if nothing but that, your opinion,,, i will take the facts and knowledge because i have been there in real time and hands on,,, and if i go down at church this Sunday, i will be doing for people i do not know and for family and friends.. not for the belief system , the system will endure forever, the belief will not die regardless of what happens to me ,,, you see in Romans it says that the police officer is a minister appointed by God,,, i accepted my appointment long ago, even though i no longer wear the uniform my appointment as a minster has not ended, only changed, i could have walked away when i hung that uniform up the last time,,, but i decided to keep following God and were he lead me.... and if that gets me killed,,, so be it.. but i do not do it for the Church, i do it for the people, just as they did.
But the church and the people are the same thing. You canít have one without the other. Jesus gave it all for the church- thatís how important it is- that is why it deserves our very lives
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Old 12-31-2019, 08:32 PM   #202
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shows what you do not know, i was a officer at Beaumont for 30 years ( all of them on the street), 26 years a firearms instructor, the lead officer in the department issuing rifles, drew firearms courses and assisted with ammo selections and training scenarios, 25 years a training officer, the only officer ever voted onto the swat team without a tryout, even though i declined the invite i attended swat member only firearms schools, street survival schools taught by gun site instructors, competed and won gold and silver the in the state police Olympics with handgun,,, never lost a match for accuracy or speed,,, i am now retired and head of the security detail at my church, i did not volunteer i was asked to be the head,,, i fired 5 rounds on duty on attacking dogs, 5 hits, ( 3 of those dogs at once) i assisted in close quarters knife attack training and was the only officer who could shoot an attacker in less than 21 feet every time, and i did it from 8 feet,,,, from the holster... i have been a Christian for 48 of my 60 years on this earth, i am a published author of faith based poetry,,,

i have have hands on experience in things like this,, you have what,,, your opinion..... and on top of all that i said nothing derogatory about the people involved,,,

and you know nothing but your idea of what is real, i have been in some serious situations you can not begin to comprehend, i have no doubt my understanding of shepherds and sheep is far beyond your comprehension along with having reviewed and studied many hundreds of shootings,,,

so your opinion if nothing but that, your opinion,,, i will take the facts and knowledge because i have been there in real time and hands on,,, and if i go down at church this Sunday, i will be doing for people i do not know and for family and friends.. not for the belief system , the system will endure forever, the belief will not die regardless of what happens to me ,,, you see in Romans it says that the police officer is a minister appointed by God,,, i accepted my appointment long ago, even though i no longer wear the uniform my appointment as a minster has not ended, only changed, i could have walked away when i hung that uniform up the last time,,, but i decided to keep following God and were he lead me.... and if that gets me killed,,, so be it.. but i do not do it for the Church, i do it for the people, just as they did.


Wow


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Old 12-31-2019, 08:38 PM   #203
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I am thankful these men were there and obviously had a plan to protect friends family from a threat. All did their jobs and are all a hero. Wish the outcome would have had zero of the security team injured or killed but these men did their job and protected the congregation. Prayers up for all involved
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Old 12-31-2019, 08:45 PM   #204
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Oh wow....this thread has gone miserably off course......kinda the TBH way lately.
My home will continue to pray for the innocent souls loss to another hate filled mongrel.

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Old 01-01-2020, 06:52 AM   #205
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Oh wow....this thread has gone miserably off course......kinda the TBH way lately.
My home will continue to pray for the innocent souls loss to another hate filled mongrel.

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Yes it sure did but it gives us a great example of how clueless some of these guys are..

CH licenses are too easy to obtain, plain and simple.. Its a joke. Saw it first hand. If you have to be shown how to load a pistol you should fail immediately..

Many people, with little to no experience at all, are irresponsibly carrying a firearm these days and they feel like Matt Dillon because they have a "license".. Many cant even tell you how a pistol even works or tell you the components that make up a cartridge... I'm very uncomfortable around these types and I go to church with some..
Nothing worse than someone with little to no firearm experience packing a pistol in a crowded building with one in the pipe.. Spooky..
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Old 01-01-2020, 08:26 AM   #206
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Yes it sure did but it gives us a great example of how clueless some of these guys are..

CH licenses are too easy to obtain, plain and simple.. Its a joke. Saw it first hand. If you have to be shown how to load a pistol you should fail immediately..

Many people, with little to no experience at all, are irresponsibly carrying a firearm these days and they feel like Matt Dillon because they have a "license".. Many cant even tell you how a pistol even works or tell you the components that make up a cartridge... I'm very uncomfortable around these types and I go to church with some..
Nothing worse than someone with little to no firearm experience packing a pistol in a crowded building with one in the pipe.. Spooky..


So what would your alternative be?


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Old 01-01-2020, 09:11 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by ttaxidermy View Post
Yes it sure did but it gives us a great example of how clueless some of these guys are..

CH licenses are too easy to obtain, plain and simple.. Its a joke. Saw it first hand. If you have to be shown how to load a pistol you should fail immediately..

Many people, with little to no experience at all, are irresponsibly carrying a firearm these days and they feel like Matt Dillon because they have a "license".. Many cant even tell you how a pistol even works or tell you the components that make up a cartridge... I'm very uncomfortable around these types and I go to church with some..
Nothing worse than someone with little to no firearm experience packing a pistol in a crowded building with one in the pipe.. Spooky..
I believe that everyone should have the right to bear arms but I not naive enough to think everyone has the ability. I've seen the same thing first hand. The current LTC qualification is nothing more than can you point the gun and squeeze the trigger.

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Old 01-01-2020, 09:20 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by ttaxidermy View Post
Yes it sure did but it gives us a great example of how clueless some of these guys are..

CH licenses are too easy to obtain, plain and simple.. Its a joke. Saw it first hand. If you have to be shown how to load a pistol you should fail immediately..

Many people, with little to no experience at all, are irresponsibly carrying a firearm these days and they feel like Matt Dillon because they have a "license".. Many cant even tell you how a pistol even works or tell you the components that make up a cartridge... I'm very uncomfortable around these types and I go to church with some..
Nothing worse than someone with little to no firearm experience packing a pistol in a crowded building with one in the pipe.. Spooky..
What's your thoughts on Constitutional carry?
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Old 01-01-2020, 09:22 AM   #209
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What's your thoughts on Constitutional carry?
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Old 01-01-2020, 09:27 AM   #210
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So what would your alternative be?


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Its gets tricky.. Much more demanding qualifications would be a good start..

I believe all should be able to carry but carry RESPONSIBLY!!!! To many are carrying, even licensed to carry, knowing dam good and well they aren't truly ready for that "responsibility" but that little piece of plastic in their wallet has now empowered them to do so, so they do, at he risk of everyone around them getting accidentally shot.....
If anybody truly believes that these very short and basic CHL classes are fully qualifying/preparing every individual that "passes", especially ones with 0 experience, to responsibly carry then your living in denial or you are living a pipe dream..
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Old 01-01-2020, 09:33 AM   #211
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What's your thoughts on Constitutional carry?
I think you know that answer to your question but that doesn't mean that I'm AT ALL or have to be comfortable with it....

Some people have NO business behind the steering wheel of a vehicle BUT its their right so they drive and people die..

Some people have NO business having children either but it is their "right" so they do and we, the tax payer, support them and our prisons fill up..

And I could go on and on.. "Rights" is a very tricky word that is IMO very often abused..

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Old 01-01-2020, 09:39 AM   #212
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Its gets tricky.. Much more demanding qualifications would be a good start..

I believe all should be able to carry but carry RESPONSIBLY!!!! To many are carrying, even licensed to carry, knowing dam good and well they aren't truly ready for that "responsibility" but that little piece of plastic in their wallet has now empowered them to do so, so they do, at he risk of everyone around them getting accidentally shot.....
If anybody truly believes that these very short and basic CHL classes are fully qualifying/preparing every individual that "passes", especially ones with 0 experience, to responsibly carry then your living in denial or you are living a pipe dream..
Does the constitution say people are allowed to bear arms.....if they qualify?
If irresponsible CHL holders are a problem then why dont i see constant news reports about accidental shootings or over zealous CHL holders shooting innocent people on the streets?
Would you rather be in a crowded church or theater with 50 "irresponsible" armed citizens or zero "responsible" armed citizens when the murder walks in?

Your assumptions are ignorant and the data, or lack of it is proof.
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Old 01-01-2020, 09:55 AM   #213
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Does the constitution say people are allowed to bear arms.....if they qualify?
If irresponsible CHL holders are a problem then why dont i see constant news reports about accidental shootings or over zealous CHL holders shooting innocent people on the streets?
Would you rather be in a crowded church or theater with 50 "irresponsible" armed citizens or zero "responsible" armed citizens when the murder walks in?

Your assumptions are ignorant and the data, or lack of it is proof.
You read that into what I said but I'm the ignorant one? Ok. LOL.

If you are comfortable being around untrained, irresponsible, armed citizens then that's your right.. I don't have to be.. That's my right.

You act like carrying around a loaded firearm is not a huge responsibility and should require little to no training at all just because its a persons "right"... Ppfftt. Really?? Now that's the definition of ignorant..

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Old 01-01-2020, 10:04 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by ttaxidermy View Post
Its gets tricky.. Much more demanding qualifications would be a good start..

I believe all should be able to carry but carry RESPONSIBLY!!!! To many are carrying, even licensed to carry, knowing dam good and well they aren't truly ready for that "responsibility" but that little piece of plastic in their wallet has now empowered them to do so, so they do, at he risk of everyone around them getting accidentally shot.....
If anybody truly believes that these very short and basic CHL classes are fully qualifying/preparing every individual that "passes", especially ones with 0 experience, to responsibly carry then your living in denial or you are living a pipe dream..
Show me the risk?
Your the one saying the constitution is not enough, i need to prove i am worthy.
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Old 01-01-2020, 10:11 AM   #215
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With rights come responsibility. I definitely agree with that. The risk/reality that some will be irresponsible when given rights is always there. It does suck, but not as much as no one having rights and freedom.
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Old 01-01-2020, 10:13 AM   #216
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Show me the risk?
Your the one saying the constitution is not enough, i need to prove i am worthy.
So you are saying that the written words of the constitution automatically "qualifies" everyone to be able to "safely" and "responsibly" carry a loading firearm around in public places??? You actually believe that??
Dude are you seriously that stupid? I don't think you are.. Surely not..
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Old 01-01-2020, 10:16 AM   #217
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With rights come responsibility. I definitely agree with that. The risk/reality that some will be irresponsible when given rights is always there. It does suck, but not as much as no one having rights and freedom.
Exactly.. Too many take our rights for granted and act irresponsibly and that is wrong. I see it daily.. That's all I'm saying..
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Old 01-01-2020, 10:19 AM   #218
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So you are saying that the written words of the constitution automatically "qualifies" everyone to be able to "safely" and "responsibly" carry a loading firearm around in public places??? You actually believe that??
Dude are you seriously that stupid? I don't think you are.. Surely not..
It says nothing about safety....nor should it. Its a right to self preservation given by GOD. Why you and people like you have the right to put restrictions on other people because you are worried they MIGHT make a mistake?
Your hypocrisy and conspiracy theories appear to be unlimited.

And stupid is a great description for one of us for sure
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Old 01-01-2020, 10:28 AM   #219
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It says nothing about safety....nor should it. Its a right to self preservation given by GOD. Why you and people like you have the right to put restrictions on other people because you are worried they MIGHT make a mistake?
Your hypocrisy and conspiracy theories appear to be unlimited.

And stupid is a great description for one of us for sure
Ok folks Flywise, and all of his infinite wisdom, says gun safety is now a bunch of overrated nonsense and just a conspiracy theory..
Dang and after all these year of practicing it and teaching it.. What a waste of time that has been.. Stupid me.. LOL.
Carry on fence rider.. Im out..

Oh 1 more thing. I drivers license, or the constitution, doesn't mean a person is qualified to safely and responsibly drive either..

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Old 01-01-2020, 10:55 AM   #220
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Our forefathers wanted us all (able body, sound minds) to be engaged in our community and national security, like serving on a jury, voting or God forbid elected office. Seems like we begrudgingly participate in the later and completely ignore the training together part of the community and national security.

God bless these men who laid it on the line voluntarily, the are a shining example of the way forward.
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Old 01-01-2020, 10:57 AM   #221
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Ok folks Flywise, and all of his infinite wisdom, says gun safety is now a bunch of overrated nonsense and just a conspiracy theory..
Dang and after all these year of practicing it and teaching it.. What a waste of time that has been.. Stupid me.. LOL.
Carry on fence rider.. Im out..

Oh 1 more thing. I drivers license, or the constitution, doesn't mean a person is qualified to safely and responsibly drive either..
Yep, thats exactly what i said good lord your a tool
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Old 01-01-2020, 10:57 AM   #222
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Ok folks Flywise, and all of his infinite wisdom, says gun safety is now a bunch of overrated nonsense and just a conspiracy theory..
Dang and after all these year of practicing it and teaching it.. What a waste of time that has been.. Stupid me.. LOL.
Carry on fence rider.. Im out..

Oh 1 more thing. I drivers license, or the constitution, doesn't mean a person is qualified to safely and responsibly drive either..
Your right...they're plenty of people out there that have no business with a firearm but the founding fathers didn't say "the right to bear arms as long as your properly trained". Why? Because they understood the impact of government oversight and regulations.

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Old 01-01-2020, 11:17 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by ttaxidermy View Post
Yes it sure did but it gives us a great example of how clueless some of these guys are..

CH licenses are too easy to obtain, plain and simple.. Its a joke. Saw it first hand. If you have to be shown how to load a pistol you should fail immediately..

Many people, with little to no experience at all, are irresponsibly carrying a firearm these days and they feel like Matt Dillon because they have a "license".. Many cant even tell you how a pistol even works or tell you the components that make up a cartridge... I'm very uncomfortable around these types and I go to church with some..
Nothing worse than someone with little to no firearm experience packing a pistol in a crowded building with one in the pipe.. Spooky..
Place and time for all things. I pray the families can find a ounce of relief after this horrible ordeal.

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Old 01-01-2020, 11:48 AM   #224
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Exactly. In a gun fight the ten rules mean nothing... don't be stupid and keep your bugger hook off the bang switch and won't be a problem.
Thatís it! Thatís the bottom line...
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Old 01-01-2020, 11:52 AM   #225
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The written law still prohibited carrying firearms in a church prior to SB 535. Whether it was enforced or not, it was still illegal according to state law.
I am only using your post to explain the old and new law.

You were absolutely correct that SB535 removed churches from prohibited locations.

The problem in reading that bill alone is that it cuts out most of the actual Penal Code section and just shows the changed part. If you go to the Penal Code and read the actual law but much further down (very long section) it says that the law prohibiting carry in churches does not apply unless they had a 30.06 sign.

So carrying in a church was only prohibited if the proper signage was posted. If that is true, why even have the law? Any place can prohibit lawful handgun license carry even today with a 30.06 or 30.07 sign.

I had to read it a couple of times to figure this one out back then.....

Any location could prohibit the lawful carry of a handgun even with a handgun license by merely posting the proper signs. Why was at church (and a couple of other places) different and placed under the prohibited places law?

The difference is...... one is a felony and one is a misdemeanor. So if Walmart put out a 30.06 sign and you violated the law, it was (and still is) a misdemeanor. If a church put out a 30.06 sign, it was a felony because of churches being put into the prohibited places section of the law.

What SB535 did was remove churches from the felony section. A church can still ban handguns by putting put out the 30.06 or 30.07 signs and it will still be against the law to carry in a church. Again SB535 didnít change the requirement for the sign, it just changed the penalty by taking away the felony which is basically what you were correctly stating.

The other change in 2019 was for the private security law. A company acting as Private Security (not police officers) is required to have a state license. Several churches had their own security teams of just church members who were armed. It eventually came into the discussion that these church members were in fact acting like a security company requiring a license even though they may not be getting paid. It was a technicality that made churches possibly violating the law by having unlicensed ďsecurityĒ.

Was volunteering church members carrying handguns in church really the same as an unlicensed security company because they discussed ďwhat ifĒ scenarios?

I have my doubts however the legislature made it a moot point by changing that private security law and essentially exempted churches. I think it was SB2065.

Clear as mud?

2019 did not make church carry legal. It moved it from a felony to a misdemeanor if signs posted. Then we saw the waiving of a private security license for churches.

If anyone really cares at this point....
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Old 01-01-2020, 12:02 PM   #226
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Honestly, as point blank as the guys were, would tackling the perp been a better option than drawing on him? No way can I put myself in their shoes, neither could any of us, but seems like that could have kept him from drawing his shotgun and taking shots.
I thought about this and itís easy for me to Monday Morning Quarterback the event. However, I have learned that if a person wearing an overcoat and with a hood should be met at the door, checked and cleared. I get the overwhelming feeling of a wolf in the sheepís pen. He should have never been there at all. But again, Iím not here to second guess but to learn from it.
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Old 01-01-2020, 12:22 PM   #227
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I read something about him wearing a fake beard as well. Is this true?
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Old 01-01-2020, 12:38 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by tvc184 View Post
I am only using your post to explain the old and new law.



You were absolutely correct that SB535 removed churches from prohibited locations.



The problem in reading that bill alone is that it cuts out most of the actual Penal Code section and just shows the changed part. If you go to the Penal Code and read the actual law but much further down (very long section) it says that the law prohibiting carry in churches does not apply unless they had a 30.06 sign.



So carrying in a church was only prohibited if the proper signage was posted. If that is true, why even have the law? Any place can prohibit lawful handgun license carry even today with a 30.06 or 30.07 sign.



I had to read it a couple of times to figure this one out back then.....



Any location could prohibit the lawful carry of a handgun even with a handgun license by merely posting the proper signs. Why was at church (and a couple of other places) different and placed under the prohibited places law?



The difference is...... one is a felony and one is a misdemeanor. So if Walmart put out a 30.06 sign and you violated the law, it was (and still is) a misdemeanor. If a church put out a 30.06 sign, it was a felony because of churches being put into the prohibited places section of the law.



What SB535 did was remove churches from the felony section. A church can still ban handguns by putting put out the 30.06 or 30.07 signs and it will still be against the law to carry in a church. Again SB535 didnít change the requirement for the sign, it just changed the penalty by taking away the felony which is basically what you were correctly stating.



The other change in 2019 was for the private security law. A company acting as Private Security (not police officers) is required to have a state license. Several churches had their own security teams of just church members who were armed. It eventually came into the discussion that these church members were in fact acting like a security company requiring a license even though they may not be getting paid. It was a technicality that made churches possibly violating the law by having unlicensed ďsecurityĒ.



Was volunteering church members carrying handguns in church really the same as an unlicensed security company because they discussed ďwhat ifĒ scenarios?



I have my doubts however the legislature made it a moot point by changing that private security law and essentially exempted churches. I think it was SB2065.



Clear as mud?



2019 did not make church carry legal. It moved it from a felony to a misdemeanor if signs posted. Then we saw the waiving of a private security license for churches.



If anyone really cares at this point....


Tvc, thank you for a logical explanation! I appreciate you taking the time to help all of us learn, and not just talk down to others.


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Old 01-01-2020, 12:38 PM   #229
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Your right...they're plenty of people out there that have no business with a firearm but the founding fathers didn't say "the right to bear arms as long as your properly trained". Why? Because they understood the impact of government oversight and regulations.

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Thank you and I NEVER said they didn't have the "RIGHT". Not once...
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Old 01-01-2020, 12:40 PM   #230
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Should it make me nervous knowing there are people out there carrying that can't even carry on a civil discussion on the internet without inciting conflict by calling other site members "ignorant", "stupid", "idiot", "clueless" or telling them to "stfu?"
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Old 01-01-2020, 12:44 PM   #231
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Should it make me nervous knowing there are people out there carrying that can't even carry on a civil discussion on the internet without inciting conflict by calling other site members "ignorant", "stupid", "idiot", "clueless" or telling them to "stfu?"
Yes, VERY..
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Old 01-01-2020, 12:48 PM   #232
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Should it make me nervous knowing there are people out there carrying that can't even carry on a civil discussion on the internet without inciting conflict by calling other site members "ignorant", "stupid", "idiot", "clueless" or telling them to "stfu?"
Unfortunately thatís the world we live in now Michael. Basic respect is beginning to be a lost art. Sometimes people forget we are mostly on the same side.
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Old 01-01-2020, 12:58 PM   #233
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Should it make me nervous knowing there are people out there carrying that can't even carry on a civil discussion on the internet without inciting conflict by calling other site members "ignorant", "stupid", "idiot", "clueless" or telling them to "stfu?"
It goes back to everyone is brave on the net. Most wouldnít say that to another manís face. Same with the constant smart *** comments.
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Old 01-01-2020, 01:02 PM   #234
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Tvc, thank you for a logical explanation! I appreciate you taking the time to help all of us learn, and not just talk down to others.


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Youíre welcome.

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Old 01-01-2020, 01:15 PM   #235
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I think if you're going to carry you should practice at least and fairly often. No one should make you or should even have to make you. If you're carrying a weapon to protect your life and the lives of those around you,you owe it to them and yourself to be proficient with it.

The police have to qualify with their weapons what is it,twice a year? To me that's not nearly enough. There are civilians that are better equipped or at least more skilled to handle a threat than the police. I'd go so far as to say that. No disrespect to police officers I'm just saying a person that shoots and shoots often and trains to be good,will be good.

If your job is to take a life at a moment's notice to protect yours or someone else's I don't think shooting once or twice a year is cutting it.

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Old 01-01-2020, 01:19 PM   #236
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I am only using your post to explain the old and new law.

You were absolutely correct that SB535 removed churches from prohibited locations.

The problem in reading that bill alone is that it cuts out most of the actual Penal Code section and just shows the changed part. If you go to the Penal Code and read the actual law but much further down (very long section) it says that the law prohibiting carry in churches does not apply unless they had a 30.06 sign.

So carrying in a church was only prohibited if the proper signage was posted. If that is true, why even have the law? Any place can prohibit lawful handgun license carry even today with a 30.06 or 30.07 sign.

I had to read it a couple of times to figure this one out back then.....

Any location could prohibit the lawful carry of a handgun even with a handgun license by merely posting the proper signs. Why was at church (and a couple of other places) different and placed under the prohibited places law?

The difference is...... one is a felony and one is a misdemeanor. So if Walmart put out a 30.06 sign and you violated the law, it was (and still is) a misdemeanor. If a church put out a 30.06 sign, it was a felony because of churches being put into the prohibited places section of the law.

What SB535 did was remove churches from the felony section. A church can still ban handguns by putting put out the 30.06 or 30.07 signs and it will still be against the law to carry in a church. Again SB535 didnít change the requirement for the sign, it just changed the penalty by taking away the felony which is basically what you were correctly stating.

The other change in 2019 was for the private security law. A company acting as Private Security (not police officers) is required to have a state license. Several churches had their own security teams of just church members who were armed. It eventually came into the discussion that these church members were in fact acting like a security company requiring a license even though they may not be getting paid. It was a technicality that made churches possibly violating the law by having unlicensed ďsecurityĒ.

Was volunteering church members carrying handguns in church really the same as an unlicensed security company because they discussed ďwhat ifĒ scenarios?

I have my doubts however the legislature made it a moot point by changing that private security law and essentially exempted churches. I think it was SB2065.

Clear as mud?

2019 did not make church carry legal. It moved it from a felony to a misdemeanor if signs posted. Then we saw the waiving of a private security license for churches.

If anyone really cares at this point....
By letter of the law, would it be legal for a church to post a 30.06 sign and still have volunteer members as part of a "security team" that were permitted to carry, or would that then require a licensed security company?
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Old 01-01-2020, 01:21 PM   #237
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I think if you're going to carry you should practice at least and fairly often. No one should make you or should even have to make you. If you're carrying a weapon to protect your life and the lives of those around you,you owe it to them and yourself to be proficient with it.

The police have to qualify with their weapons what is it,twice a year? To me that's not nearly enough. There are civilians that are better equipped or at least more skilled to handle a threat than the police. I'd go so far as to say that. No disrespect to police officers I'm just saying a person that shoots and shoots often and trains to be good,will be good.

If your job is to take a life at a moment's notice to protect yours or someone else's I don't think shooting once or twice a year is cutting it.

In Texas it is once in a calendar year. Some departments might require more than that but I would venture to guess that the majority do not.

I would also guess that a substantial percentage of officers only shoot during that qualification.
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Old 01-01-2020, 01:39 PM   #238
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By letter of the law, would it be legal for a church to post a 30.06 sign and still have volunteer members as part of a "security team" that were permitted to carry, or would that then require a licensed security company?
That is a darn good question that I have never heard asked.

Iím going to give an educated guess but I think Iím right.

The 30.06 is trespassing. To be trespassing there has to be a victim. For example you might have no trespassing signs up at your fenced in yard yet you let your next-door neighbor come over because he is your friend. The police cannot see him walk past the no trespass signs and file charges. The police are not the victim and neither are you because you have consented to the conduct.

If a store has 30.06 signs, it is my opinion that the store owner can still allow his employees to carry. It is his store. The 30.06 sign is a notice to the general public and not individuals who he allows to carry just like you can allow someone to visit your property even though you have no trespassing signs.

Therefore I think it would be entirely legal for a church (or any business) to put up 3006 or 3007 signs but give individual people authority to carry.

Some crimes are against the public welfare (no private victim needed such as DWI, UCW, underage alcohol, speeding, etc.) and some crimes are against an individual victim (assault, trespass, theft, etc.). Trespassing is against an individual and must have a victim willing to file charges or no crime exist in my opinion.
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Old 01-01-2020, 01:58 PM   #239
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Its gets tricky.. Much more demanding qualifications would be a good start..



I believe all should be able to carry but carry RESPONSIBLY!!!! To many are carrying, even licensed to carry, knowing dam good and well they aren't truly ready for that "responsibility" but that little piece of plastic in their wallet has now empowered them to do so, so they do, at he risk of everyone around them getting accidentally shot.....

If anybody truly believes that these very short and basic CHL classes are fully qualifying/preparing every individual that "passes", especially ones with 0 experience, to responsibly carry then your living in denial or you are living a pipe dream..


I can apprentice the sentiment of your statements but thatís like demanding people drive responsibly. Some do, many donít. Part of living is a community.

There are plenty of gun laws to regulate irresponsible gun owners/actions.

2A is a nonnegotiable right. If youíre not a felon you should be able to carry without the feds or the state ďapproving itĒ.
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Old 01-01-2020, 02:07 PM   #240
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I can apprentice the sentiment of your statements but thatís like demanding people drive responsibly. Some do, many donít. Part of living is a community.

There are plenty of gun laws to regulate irresponsible gun owners/actions.

2A is a nonnegotiable right. If youíre not a felon you should be able to carry without the feds or the state ďapproving itĒ.
Absolutely the point i have been trying to make for years.
We either have the 2nd and or we dont.
I i say we need red flag laws the response it very loud and clear " Shall not be infringed"


But these same 2a scholars will say you should not be walking the streets with out some gov. idea of approved training and permission......thats pure ignorance and there is no question about it.
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Old 01-01-2020, 02:07 PM   #241
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Should it make me nervous knowing there are people out there carrying that can't even carry on a civil discussion on the internet without inciting conflict by calling other site members "ignorant", "stupid", "idiot", "clueless" or telling them to "stfu?"


Bingo- they may need to regulate themselves!
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Old 01-01-2020, 02:07 PM   #242
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I can apprentice the sentiment of your statements but that’s like demanding people drive responsibly. Some do, many don’t. Part of living is a community.

There are plenty of gun laws to regulate irresponsible gun owners/actions.

2A is a nonnegotiable right. If you’re not a felon you should be able to carry without the feds or the state “approving it”.
The 2A is not the problem and I do realize that it is nonnegotiable and that is a good thing.. Own all the guns you want.. Keep them at home.

My problem is with the CHL and how easy it is to get.. If a person is going to be "licensed" to conceal carry with loaded weapons, which MANY do, in crowded public places, then the training required and the proficiency one should have to demonstrate should be much greater then what it currently is.. Its almost a joke.. Seen it first hand..
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Old 01-01-2020, 03:59 PM   #243
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https://youtu.be/kciJclao2TM

The hero instructor talks about the importance of training at 11:28.
We agree.

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Old 01-01-2020, 05:15 PM   #244
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I greatly appreciate this post. We had many discussions at church over this several years ago. At that point it was so unclear many people on the team decided that they would not carry. I think the new law did clear this up and eased some of the concerns.

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Old 01-01-2020, 05:16 PM   #245
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Unfortunately it’s almost impossible to mandate personal responsibility. What are the criteria for proper training? Who decides? Should it solely be a shooting proficiency test, or scenario based, which can be subjective? Should there be a physical fitness requirement? Mental acuity under stress? You can teach a class on “gun safety”, but how do you measure and score somebody’s trigger and muzzle discipline in a high stress environment? Should there be mandatory standards for holster retention? Speed of draw to first shot minimums? Equipment inspections to make sure guns are properly maintained and reliable?

I don’t disagree that everybody shouldhave more and continuous training, but I’m not sure that can be effectively legislated and regulated.
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Old 01-01-2020, 05:22 PM   #246
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Unfortunately it’s almost impossible to mandate personal responsibility. What are the criteria for proper training? Who decides? Should it solely be a shooting proficiency test, or scenario based, which can be subjective? Should there be a physical fitness requirement? Mental acuity under stress? You can teach a class on “gun safety”, but how do you measure and score somebody’s trigger and muzzle discipline in a high stress environment? Should there be mandatory standards for holster retention? Speed of draw to first shot minimums? Equipment inspections to make sure guns are properly maintained and reliable?

I don’t disagree that everybody shouldhave more and continuous training, but I’m not sure that can be effectively legislated and regulated.
A good start would be when a full grown man tries to put the magazine in his Brand New automatic pistol that he is "qualifying" with BACKWARDS(bullets pointing at him) he should be immediately sent home..
SMH
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Old 01-01-2020, 05:32 PM   #247
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What is the expectation of the armed citizen? Is it that they will confront a shooter or is it that you use it only if confronted by the shooter?
Example: Your in a walmart and hear shots. Do you move toward the shots or do you look for an escape route?
If i am carrying i am moving toward an escape route and will only pull my weapon out when i actually see the shooter and he is in proximity to me. I have never had the expectation that CHL holders are to move toward the offender. I think training to intentionally engage a shooter ( move toward the shooter like a police officer would) is much different than training or practice for self defense. Someone who just wants a fighting chance at survival just needs to know how to operate the weapon because the target is going to be pretty close. When i think of armed teachers i dont see 10 teachers running down the halls looking to confront the shooter. I see 1-2 doing that and the rest sheltered in their rooms with the kids and only using the gun if the shooter enters that room. There is no danger to the kids if that teacher has minimal training or just practice at home. They will all be dead regardless if the shooter enters that room. You want to move toward and engage shooters.....get a lot of training and some really good insurance. Other than give the rest of us constitutional carry and dont worry about us

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Old 01-01-2020, 05:51 PM   #248
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This event has bothered me on many levels. I’m not a novice shooter and I’ve been to several training classes but I’m by no means a Seal Team 6, Special Forces, etc., etc.,

First, I’m not sure any of the above mentioned could have ended the situation much sooner, maybe 1 or 2 seconds, but I can’t fathom the bad guy getting off at least one shot.

One thing that bothers me is that I generally carry appendix and until this event I’ve never tried to draw with my setup while seated. Now I realize how important this is - whether be at church, my office, driving my truck, etc. My setup is horrible to draw from while seated.

Any thoughts about setups for a relatively skinny guy to help drawing from the seated position?
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Old 01-01-2020, 06:43 PM   #249
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This event has bothered me on many levels. Iím not a novice shooter and Iíve been to several training classes but Iím by no means a Seal Team 6, Special Forces, etc., etc.,

First, Iím not sure any of the above mentioned could have ended the situation much sooner, maybe 1 or 2 seconds, but I canít fathom the bad guy getting off at least one shot.

One thing that bothers me is that I generally carry appendix and until this event Iíve never tried to draw with my setup while seated. Now I realize how important this is - whether be at church, my office, driving my truck, etc. My setup is horrible to draw from while seated.

Any thoughts about setups for a relatively skinny guy to help drawing from the seated position?
I have been carrying appendix for over 36 years meaning from when I was in very good shape until now when.... well, not so good shape. I have never had an issue drawing and it was easier the less I weighed.

I am not sure how you have it positioned to make it difficult. How deep, any cant, any releases on the holster, etc.
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Old 01-01-2020, 07:00 PM   #250
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This event has bothered me on many levels. Iím not a novice shooter and Iíve been to several training classes but Iím by no means a Seal Team 6, Special Forces, etc., etc.,

First, Iím not sure any of the above mentioned could have ended the situation much sooner, maybe 1 or 2 seconds, but I canít fathom the bad guy getting off at least one shot.

One thing that bothers me is that I generally carry appendix and until this event Iíve never tried to draw with my setup while seated. Now I realize how important this is - whether be at church, my office, driving my truck, etc. My setup is horrible to draw from while seated.

Any thoughts about setups for a relatively skinny guy to help drawing from the seated position?
Personally, I dont like appendix carry. Theres too many situations that make that a poor draw position. Especially close quarters, your bringing your arm closer to the front of you where if anyone were to react, could be stopped easier than arm at your side to draw. I still think a hip to slightly behind hip with the right cant for the firearm is the best place to have it. Doesnt work as well with modern skin tight clothes, but can adjust clothing and I'd say it's worth it.
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