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Old 12-17-2019, 04:42 PM   #51
Clay C
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Default militia formed - thoughts?

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Originally Posted by DRT View Post
Obviously you did not understand because that is not what I said or meant.

Gary


Like I said, itís hard to decipher due to the way itís written.


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Old 12-17-2019, 04:43 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by batmaninja View Post
Continental Army was formed in 1775. USA was created 1776.
And just how big was that army as compared to the British?

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Good to now what side your on
I'm on the side of doing the right thing, however that concerns you. And, it's "know," not "now."
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:05 PM   #53
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Having both a thin blue line sticker and a come and take it on your vehicle is worse than having a Beto sticker
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:06 PM   #54
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Having both a thin blue line sticker and a come and take it on your vehicle is worse than having a Beto sticker
Agree!
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:08 PM   #55
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Having both a thin blue line sticker and a come and take it on your vehicle is worse than having a Beto sticker
This is fake news....
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:11 PM   #56
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Having both a thin blue line sticker and a come and take it on your vehicle is worse than having a Beto sticker
So now we hate cops?

The sheriff in some counties are saying fine, you pass this law i will make everyone a deputy.

This absolutely can be stopped. The police are also the people. Dads, brothers, cousins, wifes..... They do not want to go on a gun confiscation run. They are not stupid.
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:12 PM   #57
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So now we hate cops?

The sheriff in some counties are saying fine, you pass this law i will make everyone a deputy.

This absolutely can be stopped. The police are also the people. Dads, brothers, cousins, wifes..... They do not want to go on a gun confiscation run. They are not stupid.
No they are two completely contradictory statements and the people that have both are more confused than Bruce Jenner
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:14 PM   #58
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This is fake news....
No it really isnít
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:20 PM   #59
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No it really isnít
I understand the contradictory messages, but those people are well meaning, at least. By and large I believe all of the "CATI" flags/stickers are directed at the government, and as sentimental as the are literal....either way not intended to be directed at cops.



There is NO ****ing excuse for anyone who's not a complete and TOTAL moron...to have a beto sticker. There is nothing to be lost in translation there....those people are communists.
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:20 PM   #60
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So cry which are you? A supporter of law enforcement or an anarchist?

Gary
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:22 PM   #61
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No it really isnít

sure it is when the militia mentioned in this thread was actually formed to support local Law Enforcement.
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:29 PM   #62
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So what is the signal to pull out our guns attack DC? One if by day, two if by night?
Get a grip fellas. The days that any "militia" could over throw a government of the size and complexity that ours has went by a century or more ago.
I'm not saying resisting unconstitutional laws is not the right thing to do but how do you do it in a method that is effective and doesn't play into the plans of anarchists?
Which one of you will be the first to sacrifice his career and family for inciting the rebellion?
Which of you is willing to live without power, running (treated) water, modern medical assistance? Because that is what you will get when you take up arms against the government.

Gary
This is tired argument that has no foundation in history, the present or future.

The vast majority of revolutions and insurrections in human history has been achieved by vastly out armed forces. Guerrilla warfare is extremely effective.

But you are right about your other point. Nobody wants to be the first to give all for liberty. But there will have to be a Boston Massacre.

We're not there yet but we're getting closer.

It starts with a fed up populace, which then leads to public outcry and demonstration. Then as the government tries to quell the crowd it invariably leads to violence like the Boston Massacre which in turns galvanizes the rebels and sparks the flame of war.
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:32 PM   #63
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I’m not an anarchist or a Fudd. Just two very contradictory statements that cannot coincide with each other using a basic understanding of logic.
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:36 PM   #64
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You can think what you want. I took the same oath. I still believe I am held to it. However when some small group takes a violent attack on officers serving a warrant, government officials or a military attachment, the members of the police and military groups will be told that they are the domestic threat and they will see it as so because the group is acting outside of laws created by an elected government not a king or dictator.

Gary
I disagree. Where I live, if the military was dispatched to disarm folks, I believe they would remember that oath. By the way, even as an ex member of the military, I took an oath for life. Many others did as well.
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:38 PM   #65
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So if it goes sideways and turns into the next civil war, how many of our former soldiers would join this resistance?
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:44 PM   #66
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It sounds like a big mess after reading it. If there are local laws passed that are in direct opposition to the Constitution then challenge those laws in court.
This. Nothing else. Great post AC
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:46 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by crc View Post
Iím not an anarchist or a Fudd. Just two very contradictory statements that cannot coincide with each other using a basic understanding of logic.
I understand......but not worse than beto.
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:51 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Dale Moser View Post
I understand the contradictory messages, but those people are well meaning, at least. By and large I believe all of the "CATI" flags/stickers are directed at the government, and as sentimental as the are literal....either way not intended to be directed at cops.



There is NO ****ing excuse for anyone who's not a complete and TOTAL moron...to have a beto sticker. There is nothing to be lost in translation there....those people are communists.
Iím not an expert, but I think police officers are government employees.

Please donít interpret my post as anti-police. They have an extremely difficult job, that is nearly impossible to do. But you canít say **** government on one hand and on the other say we support government enforcers. Makes you sound as looney as the Beto supporters.

PS I have no stickers on my vehicle, besides my registration, because Iím a grown man.
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:54 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by crc View Post
Having both a thin blue line sticker and a come and take it on your vehicle is worse than having a Beto sticker
I dont have any stickers, but I guess I am devoid of logic. I dont understand how these two contradict each other. A civilian police force enforces the laws we elect others to enact. ( supposedly in accordance with the Constitution ) I understand Come and Take It as defiance against the unlawful siezure of arms ( yes, I know the real story ( ies ) behind it ).

These go hand in hand. Sure, if the laws are unConstitutional and police enforce them, the Come and take it may be needed. But if that were the case, the Thin Blue Line has been *******ized and nullified.
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Old 12-17-2019, 05:57 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by crc View Post
I’m not an expert, but I think police officers are government employees.

Please don’t interpret my post as anti-police. They have an extremely difficult job, that is nearly impossible to do. But you can’t say **** government on one hand and on the other say we support government enforcers. Makes you sound as looney as the Beto supporters.

PS I have no stickers on my vehicle, besides my registration, because I’m a grown man.
And govt employees are OUR employees. We are ( supposed to be ) the govt.

I may misunderstand come and take it. I didnt realize it was an anti govt ( as a whole ) mantra. Thought it was anti gun control specifically.
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Old 12-17-2019, 06:08 PM   #71
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And just how big was that army as compared to the British?
big enough I reckon, we won.
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Old 12-17-2019, 06:10 PM   #72
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I dont have any stickers, but I guess I am devoid of logic. I dont understand how these two contradict each other. A civilian police force enforces the laws we elect others to enact. ( supposedly in accordance with the Constitution ) I understand Come and Take It as defiance against the unlawful siezure of arms ( yes, I know the real story ( ies ) behind it ).

These go hand in hand. Sure, if the laws are unConstitutional and police enforce them, the Come and take it may be needed. But if that were the case, the Thin Blue Line has been *******ized and nullified.
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Old 12-17-2019, 06:40 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by crc View Post
I've been in LE for almost 15 years and would he shocked if anyone I've met in the profession would knock on your door and ask for your guns.

One of my buddies is a cop through and through, the last boy scout, when Obama got elected I joked and asked him what he's gonna do when we come to get his guns? He smiled and said, "you just better hope you're at the back of the stack."

It's a shame you feel like you do.
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Old 12-17-2019, 06:55 PM   #74
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I've been in LE for almost 15 years and would he shocked if anyone I've met in the profession would knock on your door and ask for your guns.

One of my buddies is a cop through and through, the last boy scout, when Obama got elected I joked and asked him what he's gonna do when we come to get his guns? He smiled and said, "you just better hope you're at the back of the stack."

It's a shame you feel like you do.
Yeah Iím a monster for pointing out the contradiction of the two.
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Old 12-17-2019, 07:07 PM   #75
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Yeah Iím a monster for pointing out the contradiction of the two.
Did you read anything I typed besides the last line? I couldn't care less what stickers someone has on their bumper, I haven't met a cop in 15 years that won't stand next to you when the man comes knocking

Edit: that statement does not include anyone above the rank of sergeant. Then again, I said "cop."
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Old 12-17-2019, 07:37 PM   #76
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Well, enlighten me. Do you know many cops? The cops I know dont fit the profile you seem to be attempting to portray.
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Old 12-17-2019, 07:39 PM   #77
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This is fake news....
Agreed.
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Old 12-17-2019, 07:58 PM   #78
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No they are two completely contradictory statements and the people that have both are more confused than Bruce Jenner
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Yeah Iím a monster for pointing out the contradiction of the two.
Monster? Maybe not.

You paint with a mighty broad brush and then tell me that I am confused.

I have been an officer for 36 years so I am in the thin blue line. Because of that, I cannot support the Second Amendment and especially have a Come And Take It flag or emblem according to you because I am confused.

I have never spoken to a single officer who supports any confiscation and have told me that they will not participate in any such endeavor..... and I am a lieutenant in command of 25 officers and sergeants so it isnít like a couple of rookie cops in a locker room whispering behind closed doors.

The uproar in Virginia right now causing the fuss is.... in at least 75 of VAís 95. counties, it is the sheriffs who are leading the charge to say that confiscation will not happen in their counties and have declared themselves sanctuaries against unconstitutional laws.

Wait.... it is the head law enforcement officers that is causing the threat to call in the National Guard... against them?

Those poor confused cops. Iíll bet they are all Beto and Pelosi supporters.
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Old 12-17-2019, 08:06 PM   #79
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..... and your statements do not offend me. I just donít agree with your opinion.

The police about 95% or more of the time, arenít the enemies of freedom and as we have seen in VA, may lead the charge against confiscation.
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Old 12-17-2019, 08:12 PM   #80
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Guns do nothing against a sound cannon
LRAD
Some folks are stuck in the 1780s
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Old 12-17-2019, 09:01 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Calrob View Post
I disagree. Where I live, if the military was dispatched to disarm folks, I believe they would remember that oath. By the way, even as an ex member of the military, I took an oath for life. Many others did as well.
If you took the oath then you know there is more to it than defense of the constitution. Like obeying orders of the president and the officers appointed over you. Like being subject to the UCMJ, which as a civilian you're not.
The oath is serious and a weighted responsibility. But it's about more than an interpretation of what we believe or understand individually.
That's why I believe most likely the first small militias who stand up and act with force will be seen as enemies of the state, or domestic terrorists, and treated as such.
If we exhaust all legal avenues to fight gun control, and the majority of the voters are for it, do we determine we are no longer a nation of laws and impose he minority will upon the majority through force?

Gary
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Old 12-17-2019, 09:11 PM   #82
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Yeah Iím a monster for pointing out the contradiction of the two.


No one is calling you a monster.

It is a shame that you donít understand the significance of the Thin Blue (Red, Green, Yellow, White, Grey) Line.

It has nothing to do with supporting ďthe governmentĒ. It is a show of solidarity among/for Americans who, as an entire class, are vilified/persecuted/murdered simply because of the line of work they are in.


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Old 12-17-2019, 09:19 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by DRT View Post
If you took the oath then you know there is more to it than defense of the constitution. Like obeying orders of the president and the officers appointed over you. Like being subject to the UCMJ, which as a civilian you're not.
The oath is serious and a weighted responsibility. But it's about more than an interpretation of what we believe or understand individually.
That's why I believe most likely the first small militias who stand up and act with force will be seen as enemies of the state, or domestic terrorists, and treated as such.
If we exhaust all legal avenues to fight gun control, and the majority of the voters are for it, do we determine we are no longer a nation of laws and impose he minority will upon the majority through force?

Gary
Yup. If its spun right, and told correctly, I dont think it'd cause most to blink twice unfortunately. Let's remember we did collect the japanese who were US citizens and put them in camps... but that is inconvenient and we'd never do that. I hugely support LEO and military but I also know it's not unlikely that it could happen. For sure good ones would probably see through it and separate. But there'll be those that "follow orders". Just the way men are.
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Old 12-17-2019, 09:20 PM   #84
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Yeah Iím a monster for pointing out the contradiction of the two.
I get what you meant man, but thinking your trying to stick your point a bit hard there bud.
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Old 12-17-2019, 09:25 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by crc View Post
Iím not an expert, but I think police officers are government employees.



Please donít interpret my post as anti-police. They have an extremely difficult job, that is nearly impossible to do. But you canít say **** government on one hand and on the other say we support government enforcers. Makes you sound as looney as the Beto supporters.



PS I have no stickers on my vehicle, besides my registration, because Iím a grown man.


Ok, FEDERAL govt. I get your point, and I respect it. Thanks for keeping it cool.


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Old 12-17-2019, 09:26 PM   #86
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This is fake news....
Here ye Here ye!
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Old 12-17-2019, 09:32 PM   #87
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Here ye Here ye!
My spelling nazi is contemplating.....
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Old 12-17-2019, 09:34 PM   #88
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Ok, FEDERAL govt. I get your point, and I respect it. Thanks for keeping it cool.


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Old 12-17-2019, 09:37 PM   #89
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A person is guilty of unlawful paramilitary activity, punishable as a Class 5 felony if he:
1. Teaches, demonstrates to any other person the use, application or making of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder;
2. Assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to employ such training for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder;
3. Assembles with one or more persons with the intent of intimidating any person or group of persons by drilling, parading, or marching with any firearm, any explosive or incendiary device, or any components or combination thereof.

This sound like ANTIFA? Why don't they arrest those thugs?
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Old 12-17-2019, 09:44 PM   #90
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A person is guilty of unlawful paramilitary activity, punishable as a Class 5 felony if he:

1. Teaches, demonstrates to any other person the use, application or making of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder;

2. Assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to employ such training for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder;

3. Assembles with one or more persons with the intent of intimidating any person or group of persons by drilling, parading, or marching with any firearm, any explosive or incendiary device, or any components or combination thereof.



This sound like ANTIFA? Why don't they arrest those thugs?


Same reason sanctuary from immigration law is accepted and those laws arenít enforced, but attempt to provide sanctuary for the BOR and you get threatened.


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Old 12-17-2019, 10:03 PM   #91
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A person is guilty of unlawful paramilitary activity, punishable as a Class 5 felony if he:
1. Teaches, demonstrates to any other person the use, application or making of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder;
2. Assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, explosive or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to employ such training for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder;
3. Assembles with one or more persons with the intent of intimidating any person or group of persons by drilling, parading, or marching with any firearm, any explosive or incendiary device, or any components or combination thereof.

This sound like ANTIFA? Why don't they arrest those thugs?
what state did this come from?
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:09 PM   #92
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what state did this come from?
I believe that is the proposed law from Virginia that is causing such a fuss. At the moment it is just a Senate bill.

By the way it reads in my opinion, if you take any self-defense class or any shooting lessons that can claim to be used against a person even in self-defense, it is a felony.
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:10 PM   #93
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Oh wow! This thread is eye opening. I had no idea there were so many sheeple on this site.......
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:14 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by DRT View Post
If we exhaust all legal avenues to fight gun control, and the majority of the voters are for it, do we determine we are no longer a nation of laws and impose he minority will upon the majority through force?

Gary
That is a big question. And one we may likely have to face. In my opinion, so many of the laws and principles that are being pushed by progressive liberals are in stark opposition to the principles that this country is suppose to represent. So if voters actually choose to nullify the foundation of this country, what then? You can't expect those who still support our Constitution and Bill of Rights and believe in the original idea of this nation to have to give it up. It has been eroded to an unacceptable degree ALREADY. The only peaceable outcome in that scenario is a division of the country into two separate nations. I say peaceable because it allows for the respect of the majority vote and involves no violent retaliation. Although they may seek violence to prevent such a division. Unfortunately though I see this as the only solution. Infringements on so many rights have just been accumulating and things arent going to go back. More and more just keep getting added. And a socialist government simply is not compatable with Constitutional principles. If that is what they vote for, then separation is the only way.

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Old 12-17-2019, 10:19 PM   #95
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being prior military and LE I can believe that a lot of the older and retired people will stand with the constitution. however, during the last presidency there was a purge in the military and now I'm not really so sure about a large portion of them. I also believe there is a split on the LE community over the laws. from my experience the larger the department the more likely they are to follow the political influence than the constitution.
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:36 PM   #96
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"Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:47 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by sharpstick35 View Post
being prior military and LE I can believe that a lot of the older and retired people will stand with the constitution. however, during the last presidency there was a purge in the military and now I'm not really so sure about a large portion of them. I also believe there is a split on the LE community over the laws. from my experience the larger the department the more likely they are to follow the political influence than the constitution.


This has some merit.
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:53 PM   #98
Mike D
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If you took the oath then you know there is more to it than defense of the constitution. Like obeying orders of the president and the officers appointed over you. Like being subject to the UCMJ, which as a civilian you're not.
The oath is serious and a weighted responsibility. But it's about more than an interpretation of what we believe or understand individually.
That's why I believe most likely the first small militias who stand up and act with force will be seen as enemies of the state, or domestic terrorists, and treated as such.
If we exhaust all legal avenues to fight gun control, and the majority of the voters are for it, do we determine we are no longer a nation of laws and impose he minority will upon the majority through force?

Gary


You are only obligated to follow
Lawful orders. Not just because they said.

As to the gun control, the only way there will be a total loss of gun rights is by a full repeal of the 2nd amendment. And that still to this day a big hill to climb.

On the other hand they government has proven that they will pass whatever they want and fight it in court. And they have way bigger pockets than we do. So yes at some point there is going to have to be push back. What that looks like is totally up to them.


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Old 12-17-2019, 11:11 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by DRT View Post
If you took the oath then you know there is more to it than defense of the constitution. Like obeying orders of the president and the officers appointed over you. Like being subject to the UCMJ, which as a civilian you're not.
The oath is serious and a weighted responsibility. But it's about more than an interpretation of what we believe or understand individually.
That's why I believe most likely the first small militias who stand up and act with force will be seen as enemies of the state, or domestic terrorists, and treated as such.
If we exhaust all legal avenues to fight gun control, and the majority of the voters are for it, do we determine we are no longer a nation of laws and impose he minority will upon the majority through force?

Gary


Every person who took the oath is duty-bound to refuse illegal/immoral orders. Illegality is unambiguous (like the Constitution). Immorality is more subjective but an order to take up arms against the American populace is certainly to be considered immoral by rational people.

The first time the military is seen acting against Americans standing in defense of constitutionally guaranteed freedoms, a large percentage of freedom-loving Americans will galvanize against the government.

The military is not an unthinking leviathan. It is the sum of conscientious Americans, most of whom will refuse to take up arms against fellow Americans inside the country.

Those members of the military who lack the strength of character to refuse an unlawful order will very quickly be overwhelmed by the response of everyday Americans coming to the aid of their fellow countrymen.

I donít foresee the US military being a major obstacle if The day comes when Americans decide, once again, to refresh the tree of liberty...

To your last question, yes. If governments (state or federal) want to deny the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, it may only be accomplished via constitutional amendment. Any other means is unconstitutional and therefore illegal. It doesnít matter what your theoretical majority wants. Thatís why the Framers created a representative republic and NOT a democracy.


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Old 12-17-2019, 11:25 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
You are only obligated to follow
Lawful orders. Not just because they said.

As to the gun control, the only way there will be a total loss of gun rights is by a full repeal of the 2nd amendment. And that still to this day a big hill to climb.

On the other hand they government has proven that they will pass whatever they want and fight it in court. And they have way bigger pockets than we do. So yes at some point there is going to have to be push back. What that looks like is totally up to them.


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The problem is guys like you Mike and crc want to look at it like the militia's actions will seem lawful. They will not. They will be seen as an act of terrorism. There will be lawful interdiction.
I think we roll over just like the citizens of all the nations who have given up their guns.
Sure there will be a few who stand and die. There will be a few who are charged and jailed. The majority will conform and complain on Facebook.
And maybe become bowhunters. But there will be no large scale revolution.

Gary
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