Protein vs Genetics

[Swampa]

My deer like protein over corn. I feed it more for an attractant.


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[ttechdallas]

Originally Posted by CrownKiller14

I saw a study that I'll dumbly summarize:

A deer's potential is basically decided during gestation (pregnancy). If the doe is starving and thirsty her offspring will most like never produce large antlers no matter how much protein they eat.

Providing nutrition to females (does) during pregnancy has been proven to maximize a deer genetic potential. So a nutrition program is going to take 4-6 years to see a difference.

I was told something very similar buy a guy I used to stay connected with who had managed a large ranch with several thousand acres leased out for hunting. He was big on protein but thought the direct impact on antler growth was oversold.

He thought it would be 4-5 years before we noticed any real impact to antler growth. That we wouldn’t notice much until we had bucks born to does whose mothers were on protein and his rationale sounded like article you referenced.

[mdnabors]

MSU Deer Lab..."Fetal Programming" podcast is worth the listen. Doe is mostly responsible for genetics of fawn and the more nutrition mom gets and passes on to fetus the better off that fawn is to reach it's potential. Basically pointing out that minerals, protein, etc...can help some, but it's really benefitting future generations much more...

[Chase This!]

The doe is not mostly responsible for genetics. Fawn inherits one chromosome from momma doe and one chromosome from daddy buck. 33 pairs of autosomes and a pair of sex chromosomes. More chromosomes than we have and their genome is larger. Pretty interesting stuff.

[RMW]

A guy who builds high fence for me that I’ve known for quite a while, captured a wild fawn buck and raised him to 160+ inch deer here in Wharton county where the bucks here rarely get over 120. He had him in an enclosed 1 acre pasture, the mass on him was almost 40 inches, it was really hard to believe.

[Chase This!]

Originally Posted by RMW

A guy who builds high fence for me that I’ve known for quite a while, captured a wild fawn buck and raised him to 160+ inch deer here in Wharton county where the bucks here rarely get over 120. He had him in an enclosed 1 acre pasture, the mass on him was almost 40 inches, it was really hard to believe.

Age, nutrition and lack of stress. Makes perfect sense. If he had world class genetics he would have been 300”.

[Greenheadless]

Like Swampa, my deer prefer protein over corn.

Also I was to understand, while free choice protein can help bucks overall who eat it, its real benefit was to doe conditioning and fawn survival because of it, thus increasing population.

[LivinADream]

Originally Posted by Chase This!

The doe is not mostly responsible for genetics. Fawn inherits one chromosome from momma doe and one chromosome from daddy buck. 33 pairs of autosomes and a pair of sex chromosomes. More chromosomes than we have and their genome is larger. Pretty interesting stuff.

You ain't never seen my genome.

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[Chase This!]

Originally Posted by LivinADream

You ain't never seen my genome.

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Whatcha hiding?

[Hogmauler]

I did see a young six pointer nipping off yaupon berries last week. Seemed to like em. When we lived in Colorado the deer would eat juniper berry sand they went hog wild over alfalfa. I put a bale out down here and it rotted.

[trophy8]

Originally Posted by Swampa

My deer like protein over corn. I feed it more for an attractant.


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This. This right here. Going into 500 acres. Heck even 2500 acres and feeding protein thinking you’re gonna grow giants isn’t reality. To truly feed that much costs a fortune. You also need water and lots of habitat improvement. 90% if hunters are feeding as an attractant thinking they are adding inches. You aren’t.

[LivinADream]

Originally Posted by Chase This!

Whatcha hiding?

Just as you said, it's smaller than a deers.

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[KingsX]

Originally Posted by Chase This!

Protein takes care of the deer, so the deer can take care of their antlers. Deer can put energy towards surviving or towards antler growth.

Genetics is the #1 most important thing. No debate. That said, you can’t control them on low fence ranches (for the most part). If you have crap genetics on your place, you will not get much out of feeding protein. Even if they do add “inches”, are you ok paying real money turning a 115 into a 120?

I agree %100.
Every post you have on this thread is correct in my opinion about the subject.
Thanks for posting.

In my opinion what people think they’re seeing with protein improving genetics on low fence ground could just be the difference of managing what’s killed better compared to past managers.
I like to believe in protein doing good things when you have genetics. I believe in that situation it works.

[Tom]

no matter where you are, a fully mature well fed healthy deer have some nice headgear. may not be 140" but still can look good. Hunt what ya got.

[kyle1974]

Originally Posted by Chase This!

The doe is not mostly responsible for genetics. Fawn inherits one chromosome from momma doe and one chromosome from daddy buck. 33 pairs of autosomes and a pair of sex chromosomes. More chromosomes than we have and their genome is larger. Pretty interesting stuff.

what's your take on this fetal genetic development?

I do not understand how the pregnancy can determine a deer's outcome 5-7 years down the road.

[Black Ice]

Age is the number one thing that will grow bigger deer on smaller properties.


It sucks to eat tags every year knowing most of the deer you would like to shoot but pass on will get shot by your neighbors.


Here’s a few deer we have shot since 2015.










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[Black Ice]

Here is a deer I shot last year after passing these deer to never see them again.





This deer^^^^ is the only one I regret passing on due to age and hoping to get one more year but I probably should have shot him.



















We just started feeding cotton seed this year in hopes of keeping a few more deer on our property.


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[Hogmauler]

Your blind chair cost more than my property! Beautiful bucks.

[Chase This!]

Originally Posted by kyle1974

what's your take on this fetal genetic development?

I do not understand how the pregnancy can determine a deer's outcome 5-7 years down the road.

I believe it can, from an epigenetic/developmental perspective. Think of it in human terms. Pregnant moms need to take care of themselves. Eat well, prenatal vitamins, no drinking, no smoking, no drugs. And look at the offspring of women who don’t do that. Babies are often unhealthily, and some have life long complications (developmental delay, autism spectrum disorder, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc.).

So it doesn’t change their genetics. Their constitutional DNA is the same at birth as it is death. The moment the sperm and the egg meet, that part is defined. What we are talking about is environmental effects.

[dosrobles]

Our place is 120 acre low fence in the Hill Country. We feed protein January-September. We keep cotton seed out year round. Just started planting food plots again. While I would take an extra 5 inches on any deer, we put a lot of faith in old deer = big deer. We don’t shoot any Buck under 5 yo and we try to manage the doe population. All that being said it’s 120 acres. From a hunting perspective if we can keep some of those animals on our place that’s the primary benefit we think we get from our feed investment. If we create a more healthy population for animals that have given my family years of fellowship and enjoyment I’ll take that and be happy.

[Hogmauler]

So if a buck is a mainframe 8 he’ll always be a mainframe 8 but a healthier version on protein with the possibility of more mass

[Bayouboy]

Biggest difference maker I have come to realize is age. Let em grow.

[trophy8]

Originally Posted by Hogmauler

So if a buck is a mainframe 8 he’ll always be a mainframe 8 but a healthier version on protein with the possibility of more mass

No

[Bone Thug]

Originally Posted by Hogmauler

So if a buck is a mainframe 8 he’ll always be a mainframe 8 but a healthier version on protein with the possibility of more mass

We’ve see a lot of 8pts turn into mainframe 9’s and 10’s….Some even add extras when they get more age on ‘em.

In fact some of our big trophy’s were only 8pts at 4.5 then started adding points after that.

My biggest buck to date was also an 8pt at 4.5, then a big 10 at 5.5 and I killed him the next year as a bigger 6x4.

[Hogmauler]

Originally Posted by Bayouboy

Biggest difference maker I have come to realize is age. Let em grow.

Yes. That’s possible on a low fence if they don’t stray too far during the rut. You let one walk, which I’ve been doing, and hear a shot later. Can’t help but wonder.

[Javelin]

Originally Posted by Hogmauler

So if a buck is a mainframe 8 he’ll always be a mainframe 8 but a healthier version on protein with the possibility of more mass

No. Deer can always add tines, but anything that happens in a deers antlers is not only due to protein. Protein is just on of many things that help deer grow larger antlers, but most importantly stay healthy and on your property. Deer need the following in this order IMO
1.age
2. High Quality food year round (protein is one part of this)
3. proper heard numbers and ratios (do you want big deer or lots of deer, hard to have both in many areas)
4. proper habitat set up in the proper arrangement
5. genetics

There is no magic pill to grow 160s, but if you do all you can to give your property everything a deer needs you will maximize the potential for the deer on your property. Since you cant change the genetics on a place that is low fence then throw it out the window and work with the other 4 and you will see a huge improvement in your deer BUT it will take 5 years or more before you really see a measurable difference in most cases.

[kyle1974]

Originally Posted by Chase This!

I believe it can, from an epigenetic/developmental perspective. Think of it in human terms. Pregnant moms need to take care of themselves. Eat well, prenatal vitamins, no drinking, no smoking, no drugs. And look at the offspring of women who don’t do that. Babies are often unhealthily, and some have life long complications (developmental delay, autism spectrum disorder, fetal alcohol syndrome, etc.).

So it doesn’t change their genetics. Their constitutional DNA is the same at birth as it is death. The moment the sperm and the egg meet, that part is defined. What we are talking about is environmental effects.

I can see that. Development delays certainly make sense. BUT, Like you said, the DNA code is fixed. Oddly enough the feta alcohol analogy entered my mind too, I’m not sure what an equivalent would be in deer.

It makes me wonder though because as much as we feed, the pens are still dominated by bucks most of the year. We have a pen per 330 acres and I guess it isn’t enough because the does are rarely in them.

[Hogmauler]

Well said and written Kris. How many of y’all have planted fast growing fruit trees for deer? If so where did you find the trees. I checked a couple places and they seemed to be “out of stock” the couple times I checked back. And out of state as well.

[Lynn21]

Protein Will help them reach their genetic potential- Key word here is “their”. Where we r in Childress protein is now $18- $25 a bag.

[Hogmauler]

Originally Posted by Lynn21

Protein Will help them reach their genetic potential- Key word here is “their”. Where we r in Childress protein is now $18- $25 a bag.

Yessir! That’s exactly why a few post back I mentioned that I only threw a couple bags in the feeder. Maybe I’ll up my game a little this next year but definitely won’t be anywhere near thousands of dollars.

[jshouse]

Originally Posted by Austin

The second biggest component besides protein/nutrition is age. Many people see areas of the state say the hill country and assume a 120” buck is what the area genetics will allow. In reality the genetics in many areas of the state are much better that what the general consensus is.

As an example we hunt a high fenced property in Kerr county culling does and cull bucks. This ranch is 100% native Kerr county deer with no introduced genetics. They get protein from February-September. The property is not commercially hunted and most of the trophy caliber bucks end up dying of old age.

We start culling at 4.5 and the average cull is 6.5 cull deer are typically 110-130” and what we deem to be the bottom end of each age class

The ranch consistently produces(not to be read as killed) multiple bucks each year 160+ across several age classes from 5.5 to 9+ if they kill a trophy caliber buck it is typically not till 8+ to allow as many breeding seasons as possible. Biggest buck killed to date was a 199” typical for an area with bad genetics

its amazing isnt it. let'em grow folks. except the spikes.

[Hogmauler]

There’s articles that even dispute that J House. I had a spike come by me last week that looked like a really young deer. His spikes were six inches long. I let him walk thinking I’d give him a year.
I’d like the biologist to chime in here regarding antler growth to age. Perfect example: the six inch spike that walked by me. Will he fork next year?

[PoppinPiggies]

Originally Posted by Hogmauler

Well said and written Kris. How many of y’all have planted fast growing fruit trees for deer? If so where did you find the trees. I checked a couple places and they seemed to be “out of stock” the couple times I checked back. And out of state as well.

Careful with the fruit trees if you get a lot of grasshoppers, they've almost always wiped ours out after we have planted

[Hogmauler]

Wow. So they never came back?

[jshouse]

Originally Posted by Hogmauler

There’s articles that even dispute that J House. I had a spike come by me last week that looked like a really young deer. His spikes were six inches long. I let him walk thinking I’d give him a year.
I’d like the biologist to chime in here regarding antler growth to age. Perfect example: the six inch spike that walked by me. Will he fork next year?

i partly say it in jest. i know there are studies that show spikes can turn in to nice deer, but if i am looking to skim mouths or fill the freezer and i can choose between a spike and a 6pt thats the same age, i would take the spike based on percentages.

that being said, i hunt small low fence places and we dont shoot anything unless its going on the wall so every young deer gets a pass from me.

we use protein, sweet feed, rice bran, applce corn, whatever we can get them to eat to try to keep them on our side of the fence as much as possible. sometimes it works and sometimes our neighbor kills bigazz 4yo deer 3 years in a row.

[hog_down]

Originally Posted by Hogmauler

How many of y’all have planted fast growing fruit trees for deer? If so where did you find the trees. I checked a couple places and they seemed to be “out of stock” the couple times I checked back. And out of state as well.

I planted Mexican plum, escarpment cherry, white oak, lacey oak, chinkapin oak, and Monterrey oak at my place in the Hill Country. Check your local nurseries first, then reach out further if you need to.

Online stores:

https://www.nativnurseries.com/

https://whitetailhillchestnuts.com/c...gaAnPDEALw_wcB

https://www.wildtree.co/shop/

Get a soil sample and send it off to see what the pH is, and what minerals you are lacking, and that way you can determine what to plant. Also, need to figure out a way to water the trees or they will die, especially in a drought. Ask around and see what other trees are native to your area. For example: don't plant a chestnut tree in west Texas, it ain't going to live.

And yes, the grasshoppers almost wiped my trees out too, I had to spray Bifen to keep them away.

[PoppinPiggies]

Originally Posted by Hogmauler

Wow. So they never came back?

Nope and if they did the grasshoppers got them the next year. So far we have found they don't seem to like live oak leaves... definitely interesting in trying the Bifen stuff mentioned above though

[slayer]

Originally Posted by Chase This!

Did I read this correctly? You are feeding protein to get more meat out of your deer?

Bigger bodies, healthier deer. They survive and recover faster from the rut and yes, side affect, I get more meat when I kill one. . .

[elgato]

Originally Posted by Hogmauler

So if a buck is a mainframe 8 he’ll always be a mainframe 8 but a healthier version on protein with the possibility of more mass

You might find this video interesting regarding antler growth and the idea 'once an 8 always an 8'

https://youtu.be/v2BUx4xhWjI

[kyle1974]

Originally Posted by KingsX

I agree %100.
Every post you have on this thread is correct in my opinion about the subject.
Thanks for posting.

In my opinion what people think they’re seeing with protein improving genetics on low fence ground could just be the difference of managing what’s killed better compared to past managers.
I like to believe in protein doing good things when you have genetics. I believe in that situation it works.

I would say this year, the amount of feed that we put out saved some deer from dying in the drought. Of course we hope that antler development follows, but this being one of the worst droughts in the area's history, there's no doubt that the feeding took pressure off the browse and kept a few deer alive.

[elgato]

Lots of interesting comments here. For me the priorities are very simple

1) Nutrition!!!!! Nutrition raises the quality of all age classes.Peak Nutrition shifts the bell curve of a herd over time measurably. I suspect there are very few places anywhere that a deer herd is on peak nutrition year round for generations without supplementation. We feed protein year round.

2) Age- Age is always your friend. He who can say exactly what year a deer will have his best rack hasn't been born yet. But conclusively the several years of peak maturity offer the best window to peak antler expression

3) Genetics-The genetic potential in many ( most? ) places is sufficient to meet the goals of most hunters. The limiter is almost always nutrition, then age. And with year round peak nutrition, as stating in study after study on deer, humans and everything else, quality improves as a response to an improved environment

[slayer]

I was in Haskell county for 5 years. When we got there, the average deer was a 115" 8 pt., lots of them. By the last year we were there, we had more than a handful of 13, 12's and 10's. The mass had grown, the inches had grown. The deer in my area would wait on me to fill the feeder. Literally standing 15-20 yards away while I poured bags in. . .Protein, Cotton Seed, supplements, mineral blocks. water and AGE. You can effect low fence deer heard, if all participants are on board. In Knox county, we have fed protein 24/7/365 for 10 years. The average weight of a buck is now close to 200lbs. Average doe is closer to 135-150 lbs. We have at least 6 sets of twin fawn this year. If I could get the farmers to let me put in food plots instead of wheat or oats, I think we could get even more out of the deer. When we started 10 years ago, there was little to no heard. Average buck is maybe 110" if that. We now get 125-130" 2 year olds. Not all of them, but more on average then before. We can't control our neighbors, therefore I can't control genetics other than cull out deer that don't meet the standards. . .each will believe their own train of thought. I have seen the difference directly and will continue to throw money at it. . . besides, its only money. . ..

[Hogmauler]

Will check out that video!

[Johnson]

age

[Chase This!]

Originally Posted by Johnson

age

Not by itself. I have a 250” 2 year old.

[Hogmauler]

Wow. Pics?

[Chase This!]

Originally Posted by Hogmauler

Wow. Pics?

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[Hogmauler]

Totally insane!