The Elk Thread

[Bill]

The Montana governor signed SB 98 in May. Federal endangered species act be ******, Montana law says it’s legal to shoot a griz in defense of yourself, others or livestock.




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[Lostacresranch]

Lol sounds like they should run elk hunts. Would probably make a lot of money and could run fewer cows. Definitely less of a headache


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Did you read the link? The ranchers WANT to allow hunting. They want the permits to do just that. The state denies them.

[Lostacresranch]

I hope the Judge looks at them in court and says,

“Let me understand this. You ranch an area that’s always had elk on it, so did your fathers and grandfathers. There are law-abiding hunters who would love to have access to your ranches and I understand they can’t trespass on your land. Now your have the right as landowners to say who can and who can’t hunt on it, but you guys have nutz coming in front of me saying the state owes you anything.

The same people you want to pay to solve your problem are the same you won’t allow on your ranches.

I want you to sit down with the game warden and come back in 30 days with a plan of how many hunters you could have on each ranch, each day of the season to help solve your problem. Next case, please”




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That’s exactly what the ranchers WANT to DO! They want permits to allow elk hunters to hunt on them.

[Texans42]

I hope the Judge looks at them in court and says,

“Let me understand this. You ranch an area that’s always had elk on it, so did your fathers and grandfathers. There are law-abiding hunters who would love to have access to your ranches and I understand they can’t trespass on your land. Now your have the right as landowners to say who can and who can’t hunt on it, but you guys have nutz coming in front of me saying the state owes you anything.

The same people you want to pay to solve your problem are the same you won’t allow on your ranches.

I want you to sit down with the game warden and come back in 30 days with a plan of how many hunters you could have on each ranch, each day of the season to help solve your problem. Next case, please”




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You are highly uneducated on the subject. Those unit wide tags open the Ranch To PUBLIC HUNTING, it’s a condition of the program.


I hope they win and get blank depredation permits, and lay them down, like the old days. Only way the point will get made.

You might want to research why they are sueing, current administration proposed lowering the LO voucher program even more. The LO voucher program has been extremely critical not only in buying tolerance but furthering conservation via incentivizing habitat improvement. It was a win win. Not to mention the state wildlife normally gets almost 8x the revenue from these few tags that aren’t in the Res pool.

You have obviously never had substantial ag damage due to wildlife, I’ve had a corn circle laid down and that was rough 200k income and expense loss.

[Bill]

Please educate me. My knowledge is from the article posted, which says the lawsuit seeks relief since the State has not protected the ranchers from depredating elk.

Uneducated? Retired with a BS, MS, and MBA here. You?

[justletmein]

I haven't educated myself on the topic, but was under the impression this was simply a move to get more LO tags to sell hunts for profit. Seems if they just wanted to ease the depredation from the Elk they could allow anyone with tags for that unit to hunt there couldn't they? Am I way off base?

If this lawsuit works I may have a case against the city for fire ants in my yard.

[ladrones]

Please educate me. My knowledge is from the article posted, which says the lawsuit seeks relief since the State has not protected the ranchers from depredating elk.

Uneducated? Retired with a BS, MS, and MBA here. You?

They do this every time they want more welfare in the form of high value unit wide tags.

[Texans42]

Please educate me. My knowledge is from the article posted, which says the lawsuit seeks relief since the State has not protected the ranchers from depredating elk.

Uneducated? Retired with a BS, MS, and MBA here. You?

Your MBA isn't in reading comprehension. My comment, as the sentence was written, was solely based on this subject, not general overall education. I’m not here to get in a measuring contest. My degrees, accreditation age, retirement age, and holdings are irrelevant.

Again the program that they are suing over has previously lowered “unit wide tag” allotments, and is up to vote to be eliminated. The unit wide voucher program they want increased instead of decreased OPENS every PROPERTY (that gets a tag) to PUBLIC hunting for EVERYONE. Therefore your commentary is not relevant to the discussion.

It wasn’t long ago Dept of Ag authorized blank depredation permits, that benefited no one outside of “temporary” relief of landowners.

The monetary gain of unit wide tags to both the State and Landowner has been a huge incentive in buying tolerance of damages caused by higher densities of elk.

Facts

• Opponents of the program want tags allocated in the resident pool.(I get the thought process, but with out private land owner tolerance, we wouldnt have the historic numbers we have today).
• 99% of vouchers bring in 7x more state funding revenue than a Res Tag
• Gila population has been stable or growing most years, even after Wolf introduction. As has almost all primary core elk units.
• The unit wide voucher program opens private land to public hunting

NM has a premium elk herd built on back of private landowners, this program is a model of partner coexistence between ranching/farming and wildlife.

[Texans42]

They do this every time they want more welfare in the form of high value unit wide tags.

I get your sediment since you have always pushed for higher resident allocation. I get that, but NM has had one of the best solutions in the lower 48 for LO wildlife conflicts IMO. Utah and CO isn’t near as public or access hunting friendly

New Mexico has entered the land scape of ballot biology and ballot hunting, it won’t be long before a the Dept of Ag gets pushed or forced once again to sign a blanket depredation order. It’s happened in every state including NM.

A few tags for tolerance and open access isn’t a bad compromise.

[Bill]

I re-read the article that started this discussion. There’s nothing in it about vouchers, unit wide tags or the other information you posted.

My comment (tongue in cheek) was based on the article posted. It says the 8 ranchers are suing “because the state is not protecting them from elk”.


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[Mouse]

I remember a conversation from about 20 years ago among a group of ranchers when one of the 3rd generation ranchers told the group that elk would put us out of business long before the wolf had the opportunity to.

[ladrones]

I re-read the article that started this discussion. There’s nothing in it about vouchers, unit wide tags or the other information you posted.

My comment (tongue in cheek) was based on the article posted. It says the 8 ranchers are suing “because the state is not protecting them from elk”.


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It’s just drama from some of the landowners that have land in the money units. It’s a tactic that is always used when someone is about to lose out on the “unit wide” welfare tags.

[Texans42]

I re-read the article that started this discussion. There’s nothing in it about vouchers, unit wide tags or the other information you posted.

My comment (tongue in cheek) was based on the article posted. It says the 8 ranchers are suing “because the state is not protecting them from elk”.


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Yes and I’m giving you the real context, facts and background of the situation/program.

If they go the depredation route, it’s becomes a situation to lower populations to decrease damages. (ranch/farm will still have damages, just less). Where as the voucher program, is a reimbursement of damages. Big difference. One purpose is to lower over populations which lowers all public opportunity, while the other option increases or maintains populations and the correlating opportunity.

It's been a win win program, unfortunately some just view it as a tag allocation problem and don't see the overall big picture. They will win if they push for Depredation tags w/Ag, but this way is actually a win for all sportsman. It will counter ballots.

[quackadikt]

Yes and I’m giving you the real context, facts and background of the situation/program.

If they go the depredation route, it’s becomes a situation to lower populations to decrease damages. (ranch/farm will still have damages, just less). Where as the voucher program, is a reimbursement of damages. Big difference. One purpose is to lower over populations which lowers all public opportunity, while the other option increases or maintains populations and the correlating opportunity.

It's been a win win program, unfortunately some just view it as a tag allocation problem and don't see the overall big picture. They will win if they push for Depredation tags w/Ag, but this way is actually a win for all sportsman. It will counter ballots.

Wrong. It's a win for the ranchers that get UW tags. You know good and well that the OVERWHELMING majority of "ranches" in the Gila are extremely small private inholdings and mostly USFS leases. People can already hunt those ranches if they draw a tag, minus the private ground. A UW tag in the Gila is big money, but the majority of that money is going to the LO for the voucher. Yes, there is a higher cost for a NR license that the state is going to get, but the bulk of that $15k is going to the rancher.

E Plus is a ridiculous system. UW private tags shouldn't be an option...if you want LO tags, it should be for deeded ground only and all those UW tags should go into the draw pool.

NM REALLY needs to drop the restrictions on cow tags. I thought that was completely asinine even when I was a resident there.

[Texans42]

It’s just drama from some of the landowners that have land in the money units. It’s a tactic that is always used when someone is about to lose out on the “unit wide” welfare tags.

I've personally been on the their side of the fence and had meetings at the Sec Ago and Wildlife Commissioner level. I've also witnessed what happens to wildlife when Politics say no, and elk herds are caught across state lines(like TX) and whole herds are slaughtered.

Denying the significant income loss isn't helping anyone. At the end of the day, NM’s Unit wide Programs in core elk areas opens up more land for the public(through additional acreage and access) and maintains current populations levels.