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Old 06-07-2019, 07:31 PM   #1
JES
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Default Arrow Speed vs. Weight

I'm shooting an Elite E35 29" DL 70 lbs.

530 grain arrow, including 125 grain broadhead.

259 FPS

I'm thinking my arrow is a touch heavy and considering going to a 100 grain broadhead to get a bump in speed.

Thoughts and opinions on this, will the 25 grains make that much of a difference?

Thanks.
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Old 06-07-2019, 08:10 PM   #2
TxAg
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Leave it alone

Mine:

Mathews z2
70#
28" draw

388 grains - 284 fps

476 grains - 248 fps
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Old 06-07-2019, 08:21 PM   #3
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https://youtu.be/RjZH5Nx38wc

I’ve shown guys this video for years. It’s probably the most informative 10 minutes you’ll get on arrow weight and velocity. I’ve rewatched it a number of times.
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Old 06-07-2019, 08:23 PM   #4
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25 grains will give you about 8 FPS, IDK if that is enough for you or not. You will have to make that decision
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Old 06-07-2019, 08:24 PM   #5
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Would you rather be hit by a ping pong ball going 50 mph or a softball going 30 mph...

I like heavy arrows I cannot lie
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Old 06-07-2019, 08:26 PM   #6
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Default Arrow Speed vs. Weight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pushbutton2 View Post
Would you rather be hit by a ping pong ball going 50 mph or a softball going 30 mph...

I like heavy arrows I cannot lie


Mine are over 500 grains.

Iím working on a 25+% FOC build. Not sure what itíll weigh or how fast itíll go but should hit like Mike...



This was supposed to be an edit not a quote. Sorry
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Old 06-07-2019, 09:44 PM   #7
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Roll with what you got if the spine is good and the setup is tuning well. The speed isnít an issue. Decent speed for that weight, great setup imo.


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Old 06-07-2019, 09:45 PM   #8
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I shoot a 555 out of my 65# e35 at 28Ē and just bust stuff up, wouldnít think of changing.


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Old 06-07-2019, 09:49 PM   #9
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This is the heaviest I've ever used and didn't expect the weight to be as much as it ended up.

I was maxing my draw weight at 73 lbs and had to drop it down because of some neck issues, so trying to get my speed/trajectory back up, easiest fix was to reduce the BH weight. In fact, I would like to drop the weight a little more.

I've built this arrow and bow for an elk hunt, so trying to maximize my distance. a 450 grain arrow will be no problem at 30 yards, but I'm more concerned with 60 yards even better out to 75.

Personally I like them skinny and fast...
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Old 06-07-2019, 09:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pushbutton2 View Post
Would you rather be hit by a ping pong ball going 50 mph or a softball going 30 mph...

I like heavy arrows I cannot lie
These kind of examples really donít apply or make any sense. Lol

We are taking about arrow weight in ďgrainsĒ not softballs, bowling balls or pickup trucks....Not tons, pounds or feathers.

Softballs do hurt but arrows/broadheads kill.

So a good example would be....

Would someone rather be hit by a faster 400 grain arrow tipped with a Magnus Buzzcut or a slower 500 grain arrow with a Magnus Buzzcut. Iím betting everyone would say heck no...neither!!!!!

Iím just messing with ya. Lol!!!
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Old 06-07-2019, 10:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JES View Post
I'm shooting an Elite E35 29" DL 70 lbs.

530 grain arrow, including 125 grain broadhead.

259 FPS

I'm thinking my arrow is a touch heavy and considering going to a 100 grain broadhead to get a bump in speed.

Thoughts and opinions on this, will the 25 grains make that much of a difference?

Thanks.
Why would you think a 530gr arrow is to heavy. Dropping 25gr is not going to matter for speed gain. Maybe 8fps Max.

Depending on how well your arrow is set up the drop in 25gr tip might cause poor flight. All depends on set up.

One thing for sure is penetration will decrease. That is physics 101.

If you want to drop weight so you can gain speed, you need to drop 50gr or more. Anything less is not worth it.
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Old 06-07-2019, 11:21 PM   #12
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so ran some numbers on a Ke/momentum calculator, negligible difference in the two weights. Both still suitable to kill any game animal on the planet, that's right, the entire planet, let that soak in. Sounds like anything about 500 grains is wasted.

The information I gleaned out of this post was the speed difference I would get by dropping the weight.

530 grains @ 259 fps = Ke 78.93 ft-lbs and Momentum .609 slugs
505 grains @ 267 fps = Ke 79.92 ft-lbs and Momentum .599 slugs
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Old 06-07-2019, 11:33 PM   #13
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I think it’s ok to find a happy medium between punch and trajectory. Find what works for you and roll with it. I personally like to keep my velocity over 280 just for trajectory reasons. With a 450gr arrow, I get that speed and still plenty of penetration. I’ve only had one arrow that hasn’t passed through in 4 years with this set up and that was on a big boar hog who made it about 30 yards with nothing but the fletching holding it in on the other side.

Everybody’s happy medium is different. Find yours.
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Old 06-07-2019, 11:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone Thug View Post
These kind of examples really donít apply or make any sense. Lol



We are taking about arrow weight in ďgrainsĒ not softballs, bowling balls or pickup trucks....Not tons, pounds or feathers.



Softballs do hurt but arrows/broadheads kill.



So a good example would be....



Would someone rather be hit by a faster 400 grain arrow tipped with a Magnus Buzzcut or a slower 500 grain arrow with a Magnus Buzzcut. Iím betting everyone would say heck no...neither!!!!!



Iím just messing with ya. Lol!!!

This is funny to me.
I'm hinting tonight with my 504 grain arrow topped with a Magnus....







Wait for it....








150 grain Stinger
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Old 06-08-2019, 05:53 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pushbutton2 View Post

This is funny to me.
I'm hinting tonight with my 504 grain arrow topped with a Magnus....

Wait for it....

150 grain Stinger


Did you have any luck?
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:41 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Bone Thug View Post




Did you have any luck?
No sir.

I was out til 2am
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Old 06-08-2019, 10:53 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JES View Post
so ran some numbers on a Ke/momentum calculator, negligible difference in the two weights. Both still suitable to kill any game animal on the planet, that's right, the entire planet, let that soak in. Sounds like anything about 500 grains is wasted.

The information I gleaned out of this post was the speed difference I would get by dropping the weight.

530 grains @ 259 fps = Ke 78.93 ft-lbs and Momentum .609 slugs
505 grains @ 267 fps = Ke 79.92 ft-lbs and Momentum .599 slugs
Something is wrong in your calculation. The ke will never be higher with a lighter arrow.

If you are basing a calculated off of a true chrono reading of the 530gr. Then you cannot use that number to back down. Calculators cannot adjust for efficiency.

With a perfect shot that arrow may or may not kill every animal on the planet. Most places you Hunt Cape buffalo require around 700 to 750 minimum to even hunt them. Must be even more to hunt Elephant

Last edited by enewman; 06-08-2019 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 06-08-2019, 11:13 AM   #18
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here is an example of arrows being shot and tested. as you can see ke is always going up. this is why I'm saying your calculations are incorrect.
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Old 06-08-2019, 11:44 AM   #19
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This is what Iíve learned from all the post about speed & weight. I wanted a to shoot faster with a heavier arrow. My fix, bought a faster bow. 496gr Goldtip Pierce shooting 286fps. Plenty fast & plenty of momentum. Iíve also learned I donít pay much attention to ke anymore cause momentum is whatís driving the arrow.
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Old 06-08-2019, 03:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enewman View Post
here is an example of arrows being shot and tested. as you can see ke is always going up. this is why I'm saying your calculations are incorrect.
Speed increased in my calculation, itís decreasing in yours.

PNL
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Old 06-08-2019, 03:38 PM   #21
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Your bow generates a fixed amount of energy at a given draw weight & length. A lighter arrow will absorb less of that bow's stored energy and a heavier one will absorb more of it. So even though the lighter arrow is faster than the heavier arrow, the lighter arrow's KE will ALWAYS be lower than the heavier arrow's due to the difference in absorbed energy.
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Old 06-08-2019, 04:20 PM   #22
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Then why don’t the fill the center of arrows with lead ?
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Old 06-08-2019, 04:30 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieH View Post
Your bow generates a fixed amount of energy at a given draw weight & length. A lighter arrow will absorb less of that bow's stored energy and a heavier one will absorb more of it. So even though the lighter arrow is faster than the heavier arrow, the lighter arrow's KE will ALWAYS be lower than the heavier arrow's due to the difference in absorbed energy.
That's not true at all. Go run the numbers yourself, I posted what you need.

so you're saying if a 500 grain arrow @ 300 fps has less Ke than a 550 grains @ 200 fps? Hell, 550 grains @ 285 fps is less Ke than the 500 @ 300 fps, just below, but still less. Run the numbers if you don't believe me.

I think some of y'all are so OCD about heavy arrows you ignore the energy you gain from the speed of the arrow. Now, I'm no speed freak, it's about balance for me and like Sleepy said, it's finding that balance that's right for each individual.

PNL
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Old 06-08-2019, 04:49 PM   #24
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Leave that 125 on there and blow through the elk.
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Old 06-08-2019, 06:48 PM   #25
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My strategy is heavy arrows. To comp for aggressive drops after 40 yards, I use a fixed 2 pin and 1 adjustable for exact yardage. My arrow weight is normally around 650. I just recently killed 2 stags and an elk with this setup, and pass-thru on all. The elk went through both shoulders.
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Old 06-08-2019, 07:33 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JES View Post
Speed increased in my calculation, itís decreasing in yours.

PNL
? Top arrow is the lightest and fastest it gets slower cause arrow gets heavier
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Old 06-08-2019, 07:37 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JES View Post
That's not true at all. Go run the numbers yourself, I posted what you need.

so you're saying if a 500 grain arrow @ 300 fps has less Ke than a 550 grains @ 200 fps? Hell, 550 grains @ 285 fps is less Ke than the 500 @ 300 fps, just below, but still less. Run the numbers if you don't believe me.

I think some of y'all are so OCD about heavy arrows you ignore the energy you gain from the speed of the arrow. Now, I'm no speed freak, it's about balance for me and like Sleepy said, it's finding that balance that's right for each individual.

PNL
You need to look at what you are saying. You are incorrect. Your example is so far at there itís not even funny. If you shoot a 500 and then a 550 from the same bow there will never ever be a 100 fps difference. The chart I posted is what happens when shot. Not a calculation. You can just google it. Iím sure you will find tons of articles showing what in saying.
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Old 06-08-2019, 07:44 PM   #28
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https://1drv.ms/w/s!AtVqxLy9AZcGkgak-rih-etDDQar

data on efficiency

all numbers are shot through a chron. no calculations were done to find fps. if you will notice as arrow weight increases fps go down but KE increases. if you want to see where your calculator stops working use the first arrow and match fps. then start changing the weight. you will see at around 500gr a calculator is no longer valid.

Last edited by enewman; 06-08-2019 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 06-08-2019, 07:51 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by enewman View Post
You need to look at what you are saying. You are incorrect. Your example is so far at there itís not even funny. If you shoot a 500 and then a 550 from the same bow there will never ever be a 100 fps difference. The chart I posted is what happens when shot. Not a calculation. You can just google it. Iím sure you will find tons of articles showing what in saying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enewman View Post
https://1drv.ms/w/s!AtVqxLy9AZcGkgak-rih-etDDQar

data on efficiency

all numbers are shot through a chron. no calculations were done to find fps. if you will notice as arrow weight increases fps go down but KE increases. if you want to see where your calculator stops working use the first arrow and match fps. then start changing the weight. you will see at around 500gr a calculator is no longer valid.
You took my bait, just messing with you as I know this is your #1 obsession.

Enjoyed it, have a great day and shoot what you're confident with!
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Old 06-08-2019, 07:59 PM   #30
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You took my bait, just messing with you as I know this is your #1 obsession.

Enjoyed it, have a great day and shoot what you're confident with!
*** hole hahahahah I'm drinking a little whiskey what is you drinking.
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Old 06-08-2019, 08:06 PM   #31
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No sir.

I was out til 2am
Good luck next time. Give Ďem heck.

KAP!!!
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Old 06-08-2019, 08:15 PM   #32
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This is the heaviest I've ever used and didn't expect the weight to be as much as it ended up.

I was maxing my draw weight at 73 lbs and had to drop it down because of some neck issues, so trying to get my speed/trajectory back up, easiest fix was to reduce the BH weight. In fact, I would like to drop the weight a little more.

I've built this arrow and bow for an elk hunt, so trying to maximize my distance. a 450 grain arrow will be no problem at 30 yards, but I'm more concerned with 60 yards even better out to 75.

Personally I like them skinny and fast...


Take this for what itís worth...

Last year I shot a spike bull at 54-ish yards. I was shooting a 60lb rig pushing a 476gr arrow about 240fps. I was in the 17-20% foc range and shooting a 2 blade stinger. I put it through the lungs(so no heavy bone hit), and my arrow was laying about 10 yards past where he was standing. Iím kind of hamstrung to a 60lb bow, so Iíve decided Iím not going to get much more than 245-250 FPS with my draw length if I want to keep my Afro weight over 450, which I absolutely will. Just have to learn to live with the trajectory at longer distances.

FYI - I was shooting a 3 pin slider. Had my pins set at 25, 40, 50 and the top of my bubble was like 63 or something. Had to do it over again, Iíd set my bubble at 60 and work backwards with 3rd pin at 50, 2nd at 40, 1rst at 30.


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Old 06-08-2019, 08:47 PM   #33
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*** hole hahahahah I'm drinking a little whiskey what is you drinking.
I wish, I'm at work for 17 more days...
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Old 06-08-2019, 08:50 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by quackadikt View Post
Take this for what itís worth...

Last year I shot a spike bull at 54-ish yards. I was shooting a 60lb rig pushing a 476gr arrow about 240fps. I was in the 17-20% foc range and shooting a 2 blade stinger. I put it through the lungs(so no heavy bone hit), and my arrow was laying about 10 yards past where he was standing. Iím kind of hamstrung to a 60lb bow, so Iíve decided Iím not going to get much more than 245-250 FPS with my draw length if I want to keep my Afro weight over 450, which I absolutely will. Just have to learn to live with the trajectory at longer distances.

FYI - I was shooting a 3 pin slider. Had my pins set at 25, 40, 50 and the top of my bubble was like 63 or something. Had to do it over again, Iíd set my bubble at 60 and work backwards with 3rd pin at 50, 2nd at 40, 1rst at 30.


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I'm bringing my 60 lb. bow as back up. Need to adjust my site as I've only got it set up for 20 yards and 55 yards, don't think i can shoo the gap on that difference. Have some more fine tuning to do on both my bows when I get home in July.
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:53 PM   #35
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I wish, I'm at work for 17 more days...
Dang.
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Old 06-09-2019, 09:22 PM   #36
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here is an example of arrows being shot and tested. as you can see ke is always going up. this is why I'm saying your calculations are incorrect.
600 grns diff and only 2lbs of ke increase? I will take my 350gr setup.
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Old 06-09-2019, 09:53 PM   #37
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600 grns diff and only 2lbs of ke increase? I will take my 350gr setup.
Since we know from physics 101 that mass will always out penetrate. Is part of the reason ke should not be looked at as a penetration factor.

Your example is the prime reason. We look st numbers to see if things are correct. We know as weight goes up ke better go up or something is incorrect.

We can look at momentum which is the correct unit of measurement for penetration. But there is also lots of variables. So even building a high momentum arrow doesn't mean it will do the job.

But in the archery world we know if an arrow shot from the same bow and all other factors are the same. A heavier arrow will out penetrate 100% of the time
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Old 06-09-2019, 09:55 PM   #38
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This is written by Fred bear. Not one time did he mention ke.

Six arrows were made weighing 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, and 800 grains each. All shooting was done from a machine so that the draw and loose would be exactly the same for each shot,

"Eight bows, varying in weight from 45 to 68 pounds were used.

"The six arrows were shot from each bow and the performance of each recorded. The results were then grouped for each arrow weight, added together and divided by 8 to give averages which revealed the following.

"The 400 grain arrow struck 20 per cent harder than the 300 grain, the 500 45 per cent, the 600 66 per cent, the 700 82 per cent the 800 100 per cent.

"In order that the reader may more completely comprehend the startling results revealed by these experiments, figure 1 shows a chart indicating the findings for each different combination.

"A study of this will show the striking force of a 500 grain arrow shot from a 61 pound bow to be less than l per cent greater than a 600 grain arrow shot from a 45 pound bow. Also that a 68 pound how with 500 grain arrow strikes less than 3 per cent harder than a 52 pound bow with a 600 grain arrow.

"The reason for this difference, of course, is because the light arrow does not absorb nearly as much of the energy of the bow as does the heavy one.
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Old 06-09-2019, 09:59 PM   #39
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Love my legacy

Looking at fred bears test the 600gr hit 66% harder then the 300gr that’s pretty massive there. Now I’m not saying you need to hunt with a 600gr arrow. But you would see a big improvement just by adding 100 to 150 gr to your 350gr arrow.
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Old 06-10-2019, 04:06 AM   #40
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Love my legacy

Looking at fred bears test the 600gr hit 66% harder then the 300gr that’s pretty massive there. Now I’m not saying you need to hunt with a 600gr arrow. But you would see a big improvement just by adding 100 to 150 gr to your 350gr arrow.
howmuch more of a pass through can I get with a heavier arrow? Just as in all things in life, to much of anything is over kill and not needed. With heavier arrows come more trajectory, thus affecting accuracy. Been getting accurate pass throughs for a long time. I started my hunting career with a 500 gr arrow and after one to many misses, it was suggested to me to go lighter...haven't looked back. If Im getting pass throughs with 350 gr arrow, why would I need anymore weight?


Trust me I get what you are saying and understand KE, momentum as a product of speed/weight, but that much weight isn't needed on what we hunt for in Tx.


No replacement for a fast, sharp, accurately placed arrow. Accuracy being KING.

Last edited by lovemylegacy; 06-10-2019 at 04:34 AM.
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:59 AM   #41
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howmuch more of a pass through can I get with a heavier arrow? Just as in all things in life, to much of anything is over kill and not needed. With heavier arrows come more trajectory, thus affecting accuracy. Been getting accurate pass throughs for a long time. I started my hunting career with a 500 gr arrow and after one to many misses, it was suggested to me to go lighter...haven't looked back. If Im getting pass throughs with 350 gr arrow, why would I need anymore weight?


Trust me I get what you are saying and understand KE, momentum as a product of speed/weight, but that much weight isn't needed on what we hunt for in Tx.


No replacement for a fast, sharp, accurately placed arrow. Accuracy being KING.
Not on deer. But I’ve had hogs stop a 500gr arrow. 500 to 550 is my go to weight.

One thing people don’t think about when helping others is draw length and draw weight. I cannot do what a person can with same bow if they are 28” plus at 70lbs I shoot 66lbs at 26.5. That’s another variable that should always be looked at. So how do I get same results. By adding weight.

Here at the bow store since last year we have built several people heavier and more foc arrows. Maybe 20 people. Most was an increase of 100 to 150gr. Only one came back in. He just didn’t care for the trajectory. All others loved it.

So it’s not for everyone that is for sure. I feel when we are talking about arrows we should not trash either side of it. Give data show the person any pros and cons. Then help build a good hunting arrow.
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:19 AM   #42
RJH1
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Interesting, but limited test last night. Same bow (recurve #60) one arrow 9 gpp, one arrow 12 gpp. Shot into a bag target, the 9gpp arrow consistently out penetrated the 12gpp arrow. Shot into different places on the bag, didn't seem to matter the 9gpp always penetrated more. I know this is not a definitive test, but interesting none the less
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:18 AM   #43
enewman
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Originally Posted by RJH1 View Post
Interesting, but limited test last night. Same bow (recurve #60) one arrow 9 gpp, one arrow 12 gpp. Shot into a bag target, the 9gpp arrow consistently out penetrated the 12gpp arrow. Shot into different places on the bag, didn't seem to matter the 9gpp always penetrated more. I know this is not a definitive test, but interesting none the less
Bags targets or most targets cannot be used for test. They are design to stop the arrow. So a faster arrow well almost always out penetrate in a target.

If you are interested to see what happens. Build a box with a cardboard window that can be replaced. Fill box with sand. Then you will see what happens.
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:35 AM   #44
RJH1
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Originally Posted by enewman View Post
Bags targets or most targets cannot be used for test. They are design to stop the arrow. So a faster arrow well almost always out penetrate in a target.

If you are interested to see what happens. Build a box with a cardboard window that can be replaced. Fill box with sand. Then you will see what happens.

You are probably 100 percent correct, however at this point I am not too worried about penetration. In fact, i have always gotten very good penetration on whatever i have shot. I do plan on shooting an elk this year however, so depending on outcome, i might be revisiting this line of thought haha. Have a good one
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:06 AM   #45
enewman
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You are probably 100 percent correct, however at this point I am not too worried about penetration. In fact, i have always gotten very good penetration on whatever i have shot. I do plan on shooting an elk this year however, so depending on outcome, i might be revisiting this line of thought haha. Have a good one
good luck with the elk hunt.
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:44 PM   #46
Jspradley
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I dunno but I get real moist hearing my 560gr arras smacking the target...

One benefit of coming from the strugglestick world is ANY arrow from a compound is blazing fast. lol
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Old 06-10-2019, 02:14 PM   #47
muddyfuzzy
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Funny thing about arrow penetration......everyone always has ďenoughĒ until they donít....


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Old 06-10-2019, 02:27 PM   #48
enewman
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Funny thing about arrow penetration......everyone always has ďenoughĒ until they donít....


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funny how it works that way
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Old 06-10-2019, 02:27 PM   #49
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I dunno but I get real moist hearing my 560gr arras smacking the target...

One benefit of coming from the strugglestick world is ANY arrow from a compound is blazing fast. lol
I was testing an 850gr arrow the other day. yep, that one got me down right wet.
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Old 06-10-2019, 05:46 PM   #50
jds247
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You guys know way more about this than me but I do a lot of spot and stalk hunting where the animals are feeding along . Between ranging and taking the shot the animal could move 2 or 3 yards one way or the other.. I shoot 475 grain arrow . I have no intrest in shooting an arrow that 3 yards means a bad shot.. I shot an axis doe last week at 30 yards and my arrow busted when it hit the rock behind her..other than elephants or rhino why would you need 850 grains . Might as well build a spear and throw it at em.

Last edited by jds247; 06-10-2019 at 05:48 PM.
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