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Old 01-14-2019, 10:36 AM   #1
Bucksaw
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Default Culvert size

With all the rain we have gotten this fall and winter, I got stuck pretty good this weekend trying to cross a wash-out that cuts across our lease access road. The soil is pretty sandy clay with some small amounts of mixed iron-ore gravel. Ive crossed the last high spot several times this fall with no problem, but this it just turned into soup when the back tires got in it. Decided it was time for a culvert. Was looking on TSC website and the difference between an 18"x10' and a 24"x10' is $70. Just wondering if it would be worth the extra money to go with the big one, or if the amount of flow between the two sizes would be negligible.

The wash is probably big enough to drop either one in there, and for the most part, I think the 18" would suffice. But, I dont want it to come another flood and wash out around the culvert. Anyone have any advice?

FWIW, money and terrain will not allow for any rock or paving materials, so I will have to cover with soils taken from surrounding area.
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:54 AM   #2
Drycreek3189
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My advice is always go bigger and longer. Personally, I wouldn't put a 10' in anywhere I was gonna cross with a pickup. The more fill you put over it, the narrower the driving surface gets. Give yourself a little more room. Have you checked Heath Hardware in J-Ville ? They seem to have lots of culverts on their yard. Don't be afraid of the plastic ones either, if you set and cover them correctly, they're pretty strong and they'll last forever. Galvanized, in some soils, will rust out on the bottom in a few years. Good luck !
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:59 AM   #3
solocam_aggie
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Go big! $70 is cheap insurance.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:01 AM   #4
drogers6771
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I would definitely go with a 20 footer and make the diameter at least as deep as the crossing. If it's a spot that you can normally cross then 18" should be fine, but the extra 10 feet in length will make a huge difference (especially in the dark)
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:02 AM   #5
Texas Bill
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Good advise above. You will kick yourself for years to come if you undersize it. Go big indeed.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:03 AM   #6
Wayno
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The amount of flow is definitely not negligible. Looking at the cross-sectional area, you get about 78% more area with the 24”. Definitely go bigger.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:04 AM   #7
drogers6771
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oh and the plastic corrugated ones are awesome. You dont need equipment to move them around and they are much easier on your treadwall if/when you accidentally drop a trailer tire off of it
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:05 AM   #8
lab man
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The 24" will carry a little over double the amount of water that the 18" will.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:12 AM   #9
sp-bow
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Go with the bigger one.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:16 AM   #10
sharpstick35
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how much area do you have on the upstream side
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:21 AM   #11
RWB
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Regardless of size put some riprap in there to hold the culvert. Put in one in sandy soil and back filled and lost it in a week. Put one back in with larger crushed concrete and been there 10 years.
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Old 01-14-2019, 12:02 PM   #12
Bucksaw
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Here is what Im working with. the red represents the flow of water through the wash. The blue would be where I am wanting to put the culvert. Problem is, I dont think there is a 20' area between the point where the washes converge on the left, and where the ground expands into a pool on the right. Where the culvert is marked is the original road, but we had to divert to the left to get around the wash, which started where the pool is.
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Last edited by Bucksaw; 01-14-2019 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 01-14-2019, 12:22 PM   #13
cehorn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayno View Post
The amount of flow is definitely not negligible. Looking at the cross-sectional area, you get about 78% more area with the 24Ē. Definitely go bigger.
Yep. When looking at pipe capacity it is about surface area so the 24" will carry a lot more flow.

I also agree it would be better to get something better than sand around it. If you can't get rock rip rap, maybe bring in several bags of quickcrete for around it. Leave it in the bag and let it form "rock"....
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Old 01-14-2019, 12:37 PM   #14
PYBUCK
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Godr rule of thumb is if you double the size you will quadruple the flow. ( 24" will flow 4 times as much as a 12") go bigger, go longer.
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Old 01-14-2019, 12:44 PM   #15
Shinesintx
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Go bigger, go longer...you will think me later. Personally, I’d go way bigger and spend several hundred more than the one that’s 70 bucks more.

Backfill with sand and pack the heck out of it. On each end, put riff raff and solidify it with a concrete slurry.

Is it overkill? Probably, but I hate doing the work over and over to constantly fix it. One thing I’ve learned is that when dealing with culverts, overkill saves money in the long run.
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Old 01-14-2019, 12:57 PM   #16
Dirtymike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucksaw View Post
Here is what Im working with. the red represents the flow of water through the wash. The blue would be where I am wanting to put the culvert. Problem is, I dont think there is a 20' area between the point where the washes converge on the left, and where the ground expands into a pool on the right. Where the culvert is marked is the original road, but we had to divert to the left to get around the wash, which started where the pool is.
i am having a hard time wrapping my head around where your road is. How deep the wash is. Any pictures from left or right side? Is that a stream running down hill on the left side of the pictures?

To me it looks like what i am thinking is a stream is the road and you drew the blue box in wrong spot? I dont see tracks or a road where the blue is at.
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:13 PM   #17
Bucksaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtymike View Post
i am having a hard time wrapping my head around where your road is. How deep the wash is. Any pictures from left or right side? Is that a stream running down hill on the left side of the pictures?

To me it looks like what i am thinking is a stream is the road and you drew the blue box in wrong spot? I dont see tracks or a road where the blue is at.
The water is flowing from left to right. The blue box is where the original road used to be, but has been washed out for some time. If I am going to fix it, I I will fix the original road and get away from the tree line to the left. The road you see in the background is what we have been using the last year or so to avoid the wash. That is the spot I got buried up in last night (where the new road crosses the wash, basically just to the left of the convergence of the two "streams". The water you see in the picture is surface run-off from the 5" of rain we had the night before. Thats the best picture I have at the moment. Tried posting the video those pictures were snagged from, but I cant get it to upload.
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:17 PM   #18
Bucksaw
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Blue is planned culvert placement.

Red is current washout. 2 into one stream pooling just outside the frame to the right, then flowing further down into a gully.

White shows direction of water flow. just off frame to the lower left is another hole that pools water, which is where the surface run is coming from. It does not seem to be as bad at this time.

Green is new road created to bypass the washout area that formed within the blue box last winter.
Yellow is original road. up to the point where the two lines diverge, the main road comes in down a very steep hill that winds down.

Purple shows where the truck got stuck.

Clear as mud?

There are very deep (several feet) gullies on either side of this picture, so there is no way to get around this area without building a very large bridge. I will try to get a long video of it next time I go out there and see if I can upload it to Youtube and post the link. However, it will be a while before I can get back.
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Last edited by Bucksaw; 01-14-2019 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:22 PM   #19
Dushon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinesintx View Post
Go bigger, go longer...you will think me later. Personally, Iíd go way bigger and spend several hundred more than the one thatís 70 bucks more.

Backfill with sand and pack the heck out of it. On each end, put riff raff and solidify it with a concrete slurry.

Is it overkill? Probably, but I hate doing the work over and over to constantly fix it. One thing Iíve learned is that when dealing with culverts, overkill saves money in the long run.


This


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:27 PM   #20
Bucksaw
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One of the guys that hunts the back side of the property works for the city. Im gonna ask him if he can get any reclaimed concrete or asphalt.

Money is the most limiting factor here because it is not my property, and I dont want to spend huge amounts to improve something I dont own. That being said, I dont feel that it is fair to ask the landowner to pay because she is letting me hunt for free. The agreement I had with her husband was that I could hunt my half of the property for free as long as I kept an eye on it and kept the roads (at the time they were really just rough trails) clear and passable. I assume that the same offer was given to the guys on the back side because they have done a decent job doing the same. Up to this point it has just been sweat equity invested, so it wasnt a big deal. However, now Im gonna need to put in some money, and I dont want to get carried away. I will be asking the other folks to pitch in, but if they refuse there isnt much I can do to make them short of tattling on them to the landowner.

Last edited by Bucksaw; 01-14-2019 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:30 PM   #21
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Is this actual running stream or just low area that has accumulated lots of water because of the rains. Either way I would go as long as you can and build up the road and add ditch's to divert the water to flow to the culvert. I would also try to dig a deeper hole away from the road on the downhill side to tray and draw the water away from the road. Use what you dig to build up the road at the culvert and before and after it.
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:38 PM   #22
Drycreek3189
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What you are mainly dealing with, as is everyone else in East Texas, is saturated ground. The ground won't take any more water. You might need to wait until it dries up a little if you're gonna use on-site material to backfill. Deerplanter has a good idea, but it's gonna have to get a little drier to implement it. You can't build anything with mud.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:33 PM   #23
Bucksaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deerplanter View Post
Is this actual running stream or just low area that has accumulated lots of water because of the rains. Either way I would go as long as you can and build up the road and add ditch's to divert the water to flow to the culvert. I would also try to dig a deeper hole away from the road on the downhill side to tray and draw the water away from the road. Use what you dig to build up the road at the culvert and before and after it.
Thats the plan. Gonna dig a more defined ditch upstream, and relocate the pool and reroute the drain downstream. The problem is just water overrunning the road, which is located in a natural low area. Several years ago when I started hunting it, the overrun was not a problem. The ground was hard enough and had enough vegetation to keep the soil in place. However, a year or so before the husband died, he had it logged in the winter and that caused a lot of erosion problems in the years since. Some of the areas where the logging company went in actually improved the roads, but in this particular spot it made it more susceptible to erosion. Im just trying to make it accessible in the future should we have any more winters like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drycreek3189 View Post
What you are mainly dealing with, as is everyone else in East Texas, is saturated ground. The ground won't take any more water. You might need to wait until it dries up a little if you're gonna use on-site material to backfill. Deerplanter has a good idea, but it's gonna have to get a little drier to implement it. You can't build anything with mud.
Oh yeah, for sure. Been fighting with the septic all winter because of saturation at home. Its just wet, and I get that. Im not planning on doing anything until at least late spring. I just want to have a plan in place so that I can secure the appropriate funding and materials. Unless someone comes up and wants to buy one of my blinds I have for sale, Im not in any hurry to get in there and do anything right away. If we continue to get rain, there is no telling what it might look like come spring or summer.
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Old 01-14-2019, 05:22 PM   #24
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18” minimum that’s what we write permits for.
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:11 AM   #25
tminc
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i started with one 18" in a spot that looks similar, had to go to 2, now after this past year i wished i had gone 24" and i need another. Do it once, even if its overkill
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