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Old 01-10-2019, 07:23 PM   #101
asu-indian
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Rob Hall (wildlife biologist) told me in the 90's that the best management practice was "to not shoot anything". What he meant was let them all walk and shoot the top end old bucks. You never know when that 4yo 8pt is a 160+ 10pt when he's 7yo.
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:36 PM   #102
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Rob Hall (wildlife biologist) told me in the 90's that the best management practice was "to not shoot anything". What he meant was let them all walk and shoot the top end old bucks. You never know when that 4yo 8pt is a 160+ 10pt when he's 7yo.
I'd never shoot a deer if I had to wait for any one.of them to reach 5,6,7. Never going to see one that old.
I'd venture to guess that the vast majority of deer leases are less than 500 acres and low fenced and the vast majority of them would never see a 6-7 y/o even if they really tried
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:08 AM   #103
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Honest question-how many have their mind made up and expressed their opinion have read the initial results of the study or even listened to the podcast? I'm curious.


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Old 01-11-2019, 07:32 AM   #104
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Thereís really no debate anymore that all other things being equal, shooting deer in a single herd wild setting based on antler traits has no measurable impact on the antler size of ensuing cohorts of deer.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:07 AM   #105
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Trail cameras on and off feeders. Visual around property day and night. Annual deer surveys.
Iíd be willing to bet if you flew it your results would be different.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:09 AM   #106
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Iíd be willing to bet if you flew it your results would be different.
Itís Mason county. You can see a dang thing flying. Im not sure why itís hard for some of you to comprehend a high buck to doe ration.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:15 AM   #107
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I'd never shoot a deer if I had to wait for any one.of them to reach 5,6,7. Never going to see one that old.
I'd venture to guess that the vast majority of deer leases are less than 500 acres and low fenced and the vast majority of them would never see a 6-7 y/o even if they really tried
The property I mentioned previously is low fence, 580 acres surrounded by small properties and 2 similar sized neighbors. With supplemental feeding we keep deer around and even have deer in the post-mature age class. If you donít wait for them to get old, itís gauranteed you wonít shoot an old deer.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:30 AM   #108
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The property I mentioned previously is low fence, 580 acres surrounded by small properties and 2 similar sized neighbors. With supplemental feeding we keep deer around and even have deer in the post-mature age class. If you donít wait for them to get old, itís gauranteed you wonít shoot an old deer.
Your fortunate
I've been hunting the same 400 ac for 28 years, probably have not killed 20 bucks off of it in that time....( alll hunters combined) and I guarentee I have never seen a buck I thought was over 5, never seen a buck more than 3 years in a row . It is what it is.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:44 AM   #109
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I've read more than a few times on this thread that there isn't data to benefit culling for genetics.We may need to let the Highfenced deer breeders know that they should be keeping the 200" breeders over the 400" breeders.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:23 AM   #110
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I've read more than a few times on this thread that there isn't data to benefit culling for genetics.We may need to let the Highfenced deer breeders know that they should be keeping the 200" breeders over the 400" breeders.

I don't think anyone in the thread won't acknowledge breeding operations or even controlled high-fences environment. The discussion is about whether or not it works in the General deer population.




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Old 01-11-2019, 09:39 AM   #111
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The discussion isn't whether "culling" itself works or not. Culling for a certain trait/outcome definitely works within any controlled group of animals. Whether you control the outside influences is where the questions are.

I personally need to take mouths and those at the bottom end of the scale get taken.

It is interesting to me some on here that claim to be heavily managing deer will keep deer lets say that have no brows, main frame 6s, 8s with weak 4s, etc to 6 years old to "see what happens". Its pretty obvious by 4 if the deer is going to be in the lower end of the age class. Dang sure by 5 at the latest.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:50 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by TXDUCKCUTTER View Post
I've read more than a few times on this thread that there isn't data to benefit culling for genetics.We may need to let the Highfenced deer breeders know that they should be keeping the 200" breeders over the 400" breeders.
You need to brush up on your understanding of population genetics versus animal breeding.
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:14 AM   #113
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You need to brush up on your understanding of population genetics versus animal breeding.
Maybe so ,but convince me that shooting inferior 4yr old 6pts or whatever obvious inferior deer rather than a 4yr old 160" isn't somewhat beneficial.In that it prevents those genes from getting passed to either sex,and over a period of time with a balanced herd isn't beneficial..

I know High fence Operations are a lot more controlled and I see first hand the results.But I wont be convinced that a well managed piece of free range property wont benefit somewhat from the same types of selections.Eventually you will still turn your does genetics around as well and eliminate doubt in that half of the breedings.

I don't know how else you can explain the difference in success from one free range Property to another when its very apparent from first hand experience.
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:21 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by TXDUCKCUTTER View Post
Maybe so ,but convince me that shooting inferior 4yr old 6pts or whatever obvious inferior deer rather than a 4yr old 160" isn't somewhat beneficial.In that it prevents those genes from getting passed to either sex,and over a period of time with a balanced herd isn't beneficial..



I know High fence Operations are a lot more controlled and I see first hand the results.But I wont be convinced that a well managed piece of free range property wont benefit somewhat from the same types of selections.Eventually you will still turn your does genetics around as well and eliminate doubt in that half of the breedings.



I don't know how else you can explain the difference in success from one free range Property to another when its very apparent from first hand experience.
You cannot control an uncontrollable environment. Free range is exactly that, and you cannot stop thousands of years of evolution with a bullet.
You can however sway it slightly one way or another, in a controlled environment aka high fence... or with controlled genetic influence aka introduced genetics. Other wise you're pissing in the wind and lying to yourself.

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Old 01-11-2019, 11:26 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by flywise View Post
Your fortunate
I've been hunting the same 400 ac for 28 years, probably have not killed 20 bucks off of it in that time....( alll hunters combined) and I guarentee I have never seen a buck I thought was over 5, never seen a buck more than 3 years in a row . It is what it is.
I shared your mentality forever. I finally let a few nice bucks walk just for the heck of it a few years ago. Just to see what would happen. Now they are pushing 6 and my own lease members would shoot these bucks if they saw them. I honestly thought 1 or two were going to die this year. They didn't.

I share Patton's mentality, and I'm curious to hear about your feeding program and how much you pressure your deer during the season. We feed the snot out of our bucks and we keep the pressure low in our areas. The guys that hunt 1/2 mile from us that don't do the same never have and never do see the bucks that we are letting walk. I understand that each situation is different but this has worked magic for us.

Edit: It may have to do with the terrain on your land also. Is it brushy, open, have cattle, etc?
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:34 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by TXDUCKCUTTER View Post
Maybe so ,but convince me that shooting inferior 4yr old 6pts or whatever obvious inferior deer rather than a 4yr old 160" isn't somewhat beneficial.In that it prevents those genes from getting passed to either sex,and over a period of time with a balanced herd isn't beneficial..

I know High fence Operations are a lot more controlled and I see first hand the results.But I wont be convinced that a well managed piece of free range property wont benefit somewhat from the same types of selections.Eventually you will still turn your does genetics around as well and eliminate doubt in that half of the breedings.

I don't know how else you can explain the difference in success from one free range Property to another when its very apparent from first hand experience.
That four year old has already bred. It also has brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, and parents likely still running around on the landscape.

You also can't conclude that that small racked 4 year old six point is that size solely due to genetics. There are many other factors that go into antler size.
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:48 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by TXDUCKCUTTER View Post
Maybe so ,but convince me that shooting inferior 4yr old 6pts or whatever obvious inferior deer rather than a 4yr old 160" isn't somewhat beneficial.In that it prevents those genes from getting passed to either sex,and over a period of time with a balanced herd isn't beneficial..

I know High fence Operations are a lot more controlled and I see first hand the results.But I wont be convinced that a well managed piece of free range property wont benefit somewhat from the same types of selections.Eventually you will still turn your does genetics around as well and eliminate doubt in that half of the breedings.

I don't know how else you can explain the difference in success from one free range Property to another when its very apparent from first hand experience.
Ok.
I will start with something that I wrote for members of my lease several years ago

In an effort to explain whether culling can alter the genetics of a wild population, I wanted to explain a little about selection and how it works in a wild population. Although it may not appear to be, the example I present is an over simplified model. The actual biology of a natural population is a lot more complex. I am using gene and allele interchangeably to eliminate some of the genetic jargon.
Selecting for or against antler traits in a wild population will not reduce or eliminate a gene(s) from the population. Since antlers are only exhibited on half of the population, selection for/against the characteristic is only occurring on 50% of the population (assuming a 1:1 buck:doe ratio, the percentage is actually less when there are more does). Letís assume that the deer population is 200, the frequency of a gene that is to be selected for/against is around 10%, the characteristic is easy to identify and there are only 2 genes. The actual population size is actually a lot higher, the gene frequency is probably lower, the trait is not displayed the same in all individuals, and there are probably 10 plus genes in a population. In addition, the development of antlers is influenced by a lot of genes, and not just one gene. The more genes that contribute to a trait, the more complex the problem becomes.
If this is the case, there are around 40 individuals (20 bucks and 20 does) per year that carry the allele (Iíll spare you the mathematical calculation on why it isnít just 10% of 200 or 20). Annually, at least 20 individuals (does) are carrying the gene, but you canít select against the trait because they do not produce antlers. This leaves 20 individuals that are male and carrying the gene that you desire to remove. In a given year, letís assume that one can do a good job of culling the gene in question, and you remove 15 of the 20 individuals. One can assume that you also culled at least 10 other bucks, and 30 does. Of the does that were harvested 10% of the does contained the gene in question. After culling you would have a total of 32 deer that have the gene and 113 deer that do not carry the gene in the population after a yearly harvest. This leaves 32 non-favorable genes and 290 total genes in the population. Each individual carries two genes (145 individuals x 2 alleles). To calculate the gene frequency after harvest divide 32 by 290, this equals .11 or 11%. Although one attempted to selectively remove an unfavorable gene from the population, the end result is that the gene frequency actually remained the same. Several of the assumptions that I made are not realistic regarding a low-fenced population (i.e. population size, number of genes, , etc).
Antler characteristics are a phenotypic characteristic (a characteristic you can see or measure). These traits are the result of genotype (genetics), environment, and the interaction between genotype(genetics) and environment
Phenotype = genotype + environment + geneXenviro
Since we cannot alter the gene frequencies in a low fenced natural population, letís examine the environmental component. The environmental component is comprised primarily of age and nutrition. We can control parts of this component with supplemental protein and allowing bucks to mature. Obviously, we cannot control the amount of annual rainfall or mortality of a specific deer.
However, post-rut mortality can be minimized by supplemental feeding (and praying for rain).
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:50 AM   #118
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some of ya'll must really like your feed salesmen
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:00 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Mexico View Post
You cannot control an uncontrollable environment. Free range is exactly that, and you cannot stop thousands of years of evolution with a bullet.
You can however sway it slightly one way or another, in a controlled environment aka high fence... or with controlled genetic influence aka introduced genetics. Other wise you're pissing in the wind and lying to yourself.

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So if I could knowingly kill every dink 4 or 5yr old "cull" on my 5k acre lease and allow only 160" plus deer to breed for 10yrs I would see no genetic improvements in horn size?

Another 5k acre place not killing culls will have the same results as me?

I respectfully call BS ,Even a half attempt at this would make improvements as has for many many ranches for many yrs.
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:04 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by 88 Bound View Post
I shared your mentality forever. I finally let a few nice bucks walk just for the heck of it a few years ago. Just to see what would happen. Now they are pushing 6 and my own lease members would shoot these bucks if they saw them. I honestly thought 1 or two were going to die this year. They didn't.

I share Patton's mentality, and I'm curious to hear about your feeding program and how much you pressure your deer during the season. We feed the snot out of our bucks and we keep the pressure low in our areas. The guys that hunt 1/2 mile from us that don't do the same never have and never do see the bucks that we are letting walk. I understand that each situation is different but this has worked magic for us.

Edit: It may have to do with the terrain on your land also. Is it brushy, open, have cattle, etc?
I dont understand your comment about my mentality on the issue.
My last comment should show my mentality is to pretty much let everything walk for 28 yearsexcept maybe 1 buck a year.
My lease is rolling hills just a few miles west of Austin.....Hamilton pool area.
I have 3 year round creeks so water in never an issue, and native food sources are abundant. I do not feed and since nature does fine. 8 have no specific management plan, we just dont really shoot much. We have plenty of does and a crap ton of 115 and lower bucks. This year I saw 5 of the biggest bucks I b.c.e seen in all this time and they all walked. None were over 4.5 that I could tell and only 1 I had seen last year.
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:04 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by TXDUCKCUTTER View Post
So if I could knowingly kill every dink 4 or 5yr old "cull" on my 5k acre lease and allow only 160" plus deer to breed for 10yrs I would see no genetic improvements in horn size?



Another 5k acre place not killing culls will have the same results as me?



I respectfully call BS ,Even a half attempt at this would make improvements as has for many many ranches for many yrs.
If you "only" let 160 plus deer breed you're in a controlled environment. You just contradicted yourself. There is no way to "only" let your trophies breed in an open environment.

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Old 01-11-2019, 12:07 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Aggie PhD View Post
Ok.
I will start with something that I wrote for members of my lease several years ago

In an effort to explain whether culling can alter the genetics of a wild population, I wanted to explain a little about selection and how it works in a wild population. Although it may not appear to be, the example I present is an over simplified model. The actual biology of a natural population is a lot more complex. I am using gene and allele interchangeably to eliminate some of the genetic jargon.
Selecting for or against antler traits in a wild population will not reduce or eliminate a gene(s) from the population. Since antlers are only exhibited on half of the population, selection for/against the characteristic is only occurring on 50% of the population (assuming a 1:1 buck:doe ratio, the percentage is actually less when there are more does). Letís assume that the deer population is 200, the frequency of a gene that is to be selected for/against is around 10%, the characteristic is easy to identify and there are only 2 genes. The actual population size is actually a lot higher, the gene frequency is probably lower, the trait is not displayed the same in all individuals, and there are probably 10 plus genes in a population. In addition, the development of antlers is influenced by a lot of genes, and not just one gene. The more genes that contribute to a trait, the more complex the problem becomes.
If this is the case, there are around 40 individuals (20 bucks and 20 does) per year that carry the allele (Iíll spare you the mathematical calculation on why it isnít just 10% of 200 or 20). Annually, at least 20 individuals (does) are carrying the gene, but you canít select against the trait because they do not produce antlers. This leaves 20 individuals that are male and carrying the gene that you desire to remove. In a given year, letís assume that one can do a good job of culling the gene in question, and you remove 15 of the 20 individuals. One can assume that you also culled at least 10 other bucks, and 30 does. Of the does that were harvested 10% of the does contained the gene in question. After culling you would have a total of 32 deer that have the gene and 113 deer that do not carry the gene in the population after a yearly harvest. This leaves 32 non-favorable genes and 290 total genes in the population. Each individual carries two genes (145 individuals x 2 alleles). To calculate the gene frequency after harvest divide 32 by 290, this equals .11 or 11%. Although one attempted to selectively remove an unfavorable gene from the population, the end result is that the gene frequency actually remained the same. Several of the assumptions that I made are not realistic regarding a low-fenced population (i.e. population size, number of genes, , etc).
Antler characteristics are a phenotypic characteristic (a characteristic you can see or measure). These traits are the result of genotype (genetics), environment, and the interaction between genotype(genetics) and environment
Phenotype = genotype + environment + geneXenviro
Since we cannot alter the gene frequencies in a low fenced natural population, letís examine the environmental component. The environmental component is comprised primarily of age and nutrition. We can control parts of this component with supplemental protein and allowing bucks to mature. Obviously, we cannot control the amount of annual rainfall or mortality of a specific deer.
However, post-rut mortality can be minimized by supplemental feeding (and praying for rain).
Thank you,Ill look further into this.
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:08 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by TXDUCKCUTTER View Post
So if I could knowingly kill every dink 4 or 5yr old "cull" on my 5k acre lease and allow only 160" plus deer to breed for 10yrs I would see no genetic improvements in horn size?

Another 5k acre place not killing culls will have the same results as me?

I respectfully call BS ,Even a half attempt at this would make improvements as has for many many ranches for many yrs.
Assuming equal nutritional resources, equal buck:doe ratios, equal harvest, and the same population size.

You still would not effect the genetics frequencies in the population. The effects of genetic drift has a greater influence on the frequency of alleles in a population than you would through minimal selection (harvest/cull) of a few bucks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift




In a low fence population, how does one select for antler characteristics in half the population that doesn't exhibit antlers?

There are A LOT of factors in play, and most of them are random chance. The amount of pressure that one thinks they are helping is washed out by randomness.
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:12 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Mexico View Post
If you "only" let 160 plus deer breed you're in a controlled environment. You just contradicted yourself. There is no way to "only" let your trophies breed in an open environment.

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My point is that with selective culling you should be able to control it a lot more than not doing so.Thanks for you comments,if there is a better way that's what I'm always after.
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:16 PM   #125
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we shouldn't build the wall because some illegals will still get in.
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:19 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Aggie PhD View Post
Assuming equal nutritional resources, equal buck:doe ratios, equal harvest, and the same population size.

You still would not effect the genetics frequencies in the population. The effects of genetic drift has a greater influence on the frequency of alleles in a population than you would through minimal selection (harvest/cull) of a few bucks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift




In a low fence population, how does one select for antler characteristics in half the population that doesn't exhibit antlers?

There are A LOT of factors in play, and most of them are random chance. The amount of pressure that one thinks they are helping is washed out by randomness.
I see what your saying,what I'm saying is shouldn't we be able to eliminate some of that guesswork on the does side just by selection on the bucks side over time?

I don't have all the answers, but I know what ive seen in the positive identifiable genetic traits passed on within our herd,and what seems to be the negative effects of certain inferior bucks being allowed to breed.

Last edited by TXDUCKCUTTER; 01-11-2019 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:41 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by TXDUCKCUTTER View Post
I see what your saying,what I'm saying is shouldn't we be able to eliminate some of that guesswork on the does side just by selection on the bucks side over time?

I don't have all the answers, but I know what ive seen in the positive identifiable genetic traits passed on within our herd,and what seems to be the negative effects of certain inferior bucks being allowed to breed.
There is not enough selective pressure through buck harvest to make a difference. If you only had a small number of deer then you may make a difference (like on an island, or in a breeder pen). But on a low fence or larger high fence population, the random forces of population genetics will overpower your selective pressure
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:46 PM   #128
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Seems like some of the old timers at TPWD will defend the ďmassacre all spikesĒ 1960s Kerr study to the bitter end. Hard for me to understand.
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Old 01-11-2019, 12:49 PM   #129
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Seems like some of the old timers at TPWD will defend the ďmassacre all spikesĒ 1960s Kerr study to the bitter end. Hard for me to understand.
I have a diatribe about that one too that I sent to members of my lease.
I may have found some of their raw data in an old publication, and reanalyzed it myself......
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:31 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by TXDUCKCUTTER View Post
So if I could knowingly kill every dink 4 or 5yr old "cull" on my 5k acre lease and allow only 160" plus deer to breed for 10yrs I would see no genetic improvements in horn size?

Another 5k acre place not killing culls will have the same results as me?

I respectfully call BS ,Even a half attempt at this would make improvements as has for many many ranches for many yrs.
When you remove "dinks", that void doesn't stay a void. The possibility of another "dink" to take his place is high. Or how about a nocturnal "dink" that you never laid eyes on? Or your neighbors "dinks"? Or doe that carry "dink" qualities, that you cannot see?


I understand your argument, but there to many variables and I just gave you five times as many as you gave me that go against the "cull" theory. The biggest being buck recruitment. When a buck dies or is taken, usually a buck will take his place and there is no control of what quality of animal that will be.

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Old 01-11-2019, 07:25 PM   #131
JonW
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When you remove "dinks", that void doesn't stay a void. The possibility of another "dink" to take his place is high. Or how about a nocturnal "dink" that you never laid eyes on? Or your neighbors "dinks"? Or doe that carry "dink" qualities, that you cannot see?


I understand your argument, but there to many variables and I just gave you five times as many as you gave me that go against the "cull" theory. The biggest being buck recruitment. When a buck dies or is taken, usually a buck will take his place and there is no control of what quality of animal that will be.

The study identified a negative feedback loop that I think probably happens regularly in heavily culled herds. Late born fawn population increased when culling increased. Late born fawns were more likely to meet culling criteria, so more bucks were culled which resulted in reduced breeding and more late-born fawns.

Another think they were able to learn in the study is that late born fawns that met culling criteria would catch up to the rest of their age class by the third or fourth year in the control group.




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Old 01-11-2019, 08:05 PM   #132
Javelin
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I just love how some people continue to not believe what the experts who have studied this for 40 plus years with tons of money thrown out are saying. Every study out there says culling does not change genetic makeup in an uncontrolled environment, yet so many on here and elsewhere think they can do what the experts and science can't
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:18 PM   #133
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I just love how some people continue to not believe what the experts who have studied this for 40 plus years with tons of money thrown out are saying. Every study out there says culling does not change genetic makeup in an uncontrolled environment, yet so many on here and elsewhere think they can do what the experts and science can't


Is there a study related to culling?


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Old 01-11-2019, 08:22 PM   #134
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Is there a study related to culling?


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Are you joking and being sarcastic? Or are you serious.
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:24 PM   #135
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Are you joking and being sarcastic? Or are you serious.


If you have a link to studies specific on culling Iíd like to read them.


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Old 01-11-2019, 09:30 PM   #136
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Is there a study related to culling?


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Old 01-11-2019, 10:20 PM   #137
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Well, to be fair, nothing as scientific as a guy, a feeder, and a spike tag.


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Old 01-11-2019, 10:28 PM   #138
kyle1974
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So where are they? Not the TPW spike study. Not krolls spike study. Iíve personally watched several of the double black ear tag bucks. Iím pretty familiar with that. Something regarding low fence culling not changing anything.

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Old 01-12-2019, 12:25 AM   #139
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Ok.
I will start with something that I wrote for members of my lease several years ago

In an effort to explain whether culling can alter the genetics of a wild population, I wanted to explain a little about selection and how it works in a wild population. Although it may not appear to be, the example I present is an over simplified model. The actual biology of a natural population is a lot more complex. I am using gene and allele interchangeably to eliminate some of the genetic jargon.
Selecting for or against antler traits in a wild population will not reduce or eliminate a gene(s) from the population. Since antlers are only exhibited on half of the population, selection for/against the characteristic is only occurring on 50% of the population (assuming a 1:1 buck:doe ratio, the percentage is actually less when there are more does). Letís assume that the deer population is 200, the frequency of a gene that is to be selected for/against is around 10%, the characteristic is easy to identify and there are only 2 genes. The actual population size is actually a lot higher, the gene frequency is probably lower, the trait is not displayed the same in all individuals, and there are probably 10 plus genes in a population. In addition, the development of antlers is influenced by a lot of genes, and not just one gene. The more genes that contribute to a trait, the more complex the problem becomes.
If this is the case, there are around 40 individuals (20 bucks and 20 does) per year that carry the allele (Iíll spare you the mathematical calculation on why it isnít just 10% of 200 or 20). Annually, at least 20 individuals (does) are carrying the gene, but you canít select against the trait because they do not produce antlers. This leaves 20 individuals that are male and carrying the gene that you desire to remove. In a given year, letís assume that one can do a good job of culling the gene in question, and you remove 15 of the 20 individuals. One can assume that you also culled at least 10 other bucks, and 30 does. Of the does that were harvested 10% of the does contained the gene in question. After culling you would have a total of 32 deer that have the gene and 113 deer that do not carry the gene in the population after a yearly harvest. This leaves 32 non-favorable genes and 290 total genes in the population. Each individual carries two genes (145 individuals x 2 alleles). To calculate the gene frequency after harvest divide 32 by 290, this equals .11 or 11%. Although one attempted to selectively remove an unfavorable gene from the population, the end result is that the gene frequency actually remained the same. Several of the assumptions that I made are not realistic regarding a low-fenced population (i.e. population size, number of genes, , etc).
Antler characteristics are a phenotypic characteristic (a characteristic you can see or measure). These traits are the result of genotype (genetics), environment, and the interaction between genotype(genetics) and environment
Phenotype = genotype + environment + geneXenviro
Since we cannot alter the gene frequencies in a low fenced natural population, letís examine the environmental component. The environmental component is comprised primarily of age and nutrition. We can control parts of this component with supplemental protein and allowing bucks to mature. Obviously, we cannot control the amount of annual rainfall or mortality of a specific deer.
However, post-rut mortality can be minimized by supplemental feeding (and praying for rain).
Just a thought, but what if you could cull out all the bucks that have poor traits and won't make a trophy, then start culling all older does to start removing poor traits on their side. Could you then assume that you are taking more of the, 100% poor traited buck/doe cross from the population?
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Old 01-12-2019, 01:54 AM   #140
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Just a thought, but what if you could cull out all the bucks that have poor traits and won't make a trophy, then start culling all older does to start removing poor traits on their side. Could you then assume that you are taking more of the, 100% poor traited buck/doe cross from the population?


Old doe =/= bad traits, and bucks donít always look exactly like their sires. The dead head I posted the photo of earlier has several buck offspring (weíve made educated guesses on them due to frame) and two of them are bigger than he was at 6, as 4yr olds. Not all NFL running backs have kids that can run a 4.4 40, not all geniuses have kids that graduate from college at 17.


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Old 01-12-2019, 09:29 AM   #141
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I shared your mentality forever. I finally let a few nice bucks walk just for the heck of it a few years ago. Just to see what would happen. Now they are pushing 6 and my own lease members would shoot these bucks if they saw them. I honestly thought 1 or two were going to die this year. They didn't.

I share Patton's mentality, and I'm curious to hear about your feeding program and how much you pressure your deer during the season. We feed the snot out of our bucks and we keep the pressure low in our areas. The guys that hunt 1/2 mile from us that don't do the same never have and never do see the bucks that we are letting walk. I understand that each situation is different but this has worked magic for us.

Edit: It may have to do with the terrain on your land also. Is it brushy, open, have cattle, etc?
580 acres of post oak savannah that has light-moderate hunting pressure. I’d say 75% of deer hunting there is with a bow, and the only rifle hunting is on corned roads and not feeders. Last year 24k lbs of protein was fed between Jan 1 and Mid August. There used to not be big deer but I have to give major props to TBHr The Texan for his discipline on keeping bucks on the no shoot list until they are 6.5. Certainly isn’t easy to pass a 4.5 or 5.5 yr old 10pt that scores 130+ on a smaller low fence property, but if you do he’ll likely be even bigger if he survives.

Last edited by Patton; 01-12-2019 at 09:31 AM.
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