High FOC Arrows

[Pushbutton2]

There's a couple of threads that come to mind

Time for Adult Arrows
Increase FOC

Have you read any of the Ashby Reports? They're hosted Alaska Bowhunting Supplies website.

@enewman on here has written a few articles on FOC

Also Muddyfuzzy is one of our resident arrow builders and has experience using them in Africa.
I'm positive there are other arrow builders on here as well I just don't who they are

As far as the shop not wanting to build your arrows. I can't speak to that. How does your current setup work for you? What would you like to see improved?

FYI my first dozen arrows avg me about $15/each.
Now my High FOC 20ish%. I haven't calculated it in a while and my arrows are 30" long. They're running $40/ arrow.

Yes there is a big price difference.
Initial Build requirements. Max weight 420 grains.
340 spine shaft
standard insert
100 grain broadhead
No FACT weight
100 grain Hog Head
Blazer fletching
standard nock

High FOC arrows. Build requirements 20+% FOC
250 Spine Pierce
100 grain insert
50 grain FACT Weight
150 grain Magnus Stinger
Blazer Vanes
Lighted Nocks

I have 3 similar builds to keep arrow flight and POI as close to each as possible so I don't have to re tune the bow.

1 - is practice
2 -is Pigs - High probability of breaking. Use different shaft and head
3- Deer

[Sleepy]

I’m running 21% FOC at around 485 grains. They are lethal

[mattkwebb]

There's a couple of threads that come to mind

Time for Adult Arrows
Increase FOC

Have you read any of the Ashby Reports? They're hosted Alaska Bowhunting Supplies website.

@enewman on here has written a few articles on FOC

Also Muddyfuzzy is one of our resident arrow builders and has experience using them in Africa.
I'm positive there are other arrow builders on here as well I just don't who they are

As far as the shop not wanting to build your arrows. I can't speak to that. How does your current setup work for you? What would you like to see improved?

FYI my first dozen arrows avg me about $15/each.
Now my High FOC 20ish%. I haven't calculated it in a while and my arrows are 30" long. They're running $40/ arrow.

Yes there is a big price difference.
Initial Build requirements. Max weight 420 grains.
340 spine shaft
standard insert
100 grain broadhead
No FACT weight
100 grain Hog Head
Blazer fletching
standard nock

High FOC arrows. Build requirements 20+% FOC
250 Spine Pierce
100 grain insert
50 grain FACT Weight
150 grain Magnus Stinger
Blazer Vanes
Lighted Nocks

I have 3 similar builds to keep arrow flight and POI as close to each as possible so I don't have to re tune the bow.

1 - is practice
2 -is Pigs - High probability of breaking. Use different shaft and head
3- Deer

Right now I’m running a 350 spine with a standard insert, with just a muzzy 3 blade. I haven’t shot a deer yet with them but I’ve shot a hog. I hit a little high on the shoulder at ground level and only got 8-9 inches of penetration. That’s what’s making me think I need to step it up. Thanks for all the awesome info!


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[DRT]

Oh I wasn’t getting snappy! That’s why I hate texting, you can’t put tone into it lol. But thanks, you hit the nail on the head. Ya I guess I just need to dive in the deep end and just get my hands messy. I’m a little intimidated because I’m new to the archery game, but you have to start somewhere.


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I didn't take it that way.
Plus, I don't get offended too easy and my dry sense of humor doesn't always get well received. We're good.

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[DRT]

Then there are the Ashbey worshippers who come out of the closet on this.[emoji849]

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[RUNNING BEAR]

I’m not currently running super high FOC arrows like the ranch fairy. I’m pretty new to archery, and asked my local shop if they would set me up with a high FOC setup. He said that I don’t necessarily need one in Texas for whitetail. I don’t understand that though, if the customer wants something why wouldn’t you do what they want? Anyways, Im just going to run with what I have this season and get a new setup next year. What kind of setup are you running?


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I agree with you, if you ask your shop to build you a high FOC arrow they should do so and it’s weird they try to discourage you.

Also true that for whitetail and hogs you don’t really need a high FOC arrow.

I’m shooting gold tip arrows with a 125 grain broadheads, total arrow weight plus broadheads is 425 grains, all standard stuff. Has about a 12% FOC. Most “off the shelf” arrow builds will have an FOC in that general range, and is just fine for anything in south TX, up to elk or black bear. If I were to hunt bigger game I’d look into adjusting my setup.

[mattkwebb]

I agree with you, if you ask your shop to build you a high FOC arrow they should do so and it’s weird they try to discourage you.

Also true that for whitetail and hogs you don’t really need a high FOC arrow.

I’m shooting gold tip arrows with a 125 grain broadheads, total arrow weight plus broadheads is 425 grains, all standard stuff. Has about a 12% FOC. Most “off the shelf” arrow builds will have an FOC in that general range, and is just fine for anything in south TX, up to elk or black bear. If I were to hunt bigger game I’d look into adjusting my setup.

Ya I think my arrow setup will be adequate. I hope I get a chance this season to crack of a shot at something to test them out. I’m really interested in the high FOC, heavy arrows, with single beveled broad heads though. I need to dabble with it a bit!


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[txchuck]

Just trying understand & noticed through a few conversations that High FOC may not mean the same to everyone. As for me I always regarded 10 to 20 as average. But then I have only been shooting since 1958.

[Aggie13]

Another couple things you can do to play around with your FOC for cheap is to order some Brass inserts for the front of your arrow and some lighted nocks. you can usually get a set of 4 or 5 for each of those on amazon for $10-$15 and see how the same arrows perform under differing conditions.

I've also heard you can use arrow wraps to help fine tune your arrows so that they are all virtually the same, this isn't something I've tried yet since that's a level of precision I haven't needed, but its always out there.

It might help to pick your fixed parameters i.e. fps based on your bow/draw and FOC, then play around with the above mentioned to get as close to your fixed parameters as you can.

[mattkwebb]

Another couple things you can do to play around with your FOC for cheap is to order some Brass inserts for the front of your arrow and some lighted nocks. you can usually get a set of 4 or 5 for each of those on amazon for $10-$15 and see how the same arrows perform under differing conditions.

I've also heard you can use arrow wraps to help fine tune your arrows so that they are all virtually the same, this isn't something I've tried yet since that's a level of precision I haven't needed, but its always out there.

It might help to pick your fixed parameters i.e. fps based on your bow/draw and FOC, then play around with the above mentioned to get as close to your fixed parameters as you can.

Thank you for the knowledge! That’s amazing advice! I’ll have to try that!


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[muddyfuzzy]

Then there are the Ashbey worshippers who come out of the closet on this.[emoji849]

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Easy thing that is, to label people that is…… seems to be pretty common these days. All I can say about Doc is he did the work, tons of it. The man has shot more game than most hunters will in ten lifetimes. More important Doc collected the data and published it, that’s the funny thing when these discussion come up. Everybody has an opinion but nobody ever brings any data to the table. I’m in Quality Assurance by day and have had formal training in many of the popular statistical analysis tools common in our industry. Because of my background the tools in my problem solving box are a little different that the average Joe. Collecting unbiased data and using the proper tools to interpret the TRUE behavior of a Product or Process is the only way to get to the root cause, failure mode or whatever the issue had been flagged as. You have collect meaningful data, the sample size needs to be large (the larger the better) and most importantly you have to be able to process it in the end. The man did great work, and most importantly he seems to have done it the right way based on what I’ve read and seen. It’s a shame because I don’t think enough people really understand what went into it and all the work that was done in hopes to help bowhunters moving forward. To the best of my knowledge there has been no other study regarding lethality conducted with the level of detail and time invested that Doc has done. And when I say that I mean across the entire hunting world regardless of means.


[emoji1662]

[DRT]

Ashbey contributed in a great way no doubt. But his data is based on things done in a way that leaves too many variables to call it empirical. Just the difference of the rotation of a blade 10 degrees different as it hits the animal can change the performance of the setup.
Also most people aren't shooting the big 5 in Africa and would get better relative performance out of gear more suited to the type of game and hunting they do.
But you have the few who think an arrow has to weigh 15gpp and have 30% FOC to kill a 55lb whitetail in Llano county Texas and that is just BS.
Yes Ashbey killed a bunch of animals. Heck if I had the money I'd be able to go kill 27 bull elk like Michael Wadell or 50 cape buffalo like Ashbey but I'm a common man and have a common income.
I also have common sense and know that you use the better tool for the job.
I can use a 3lb shop hammer to drive a finishing nail and I can use a 1lb ball pin to dive a railroad spike but I'd rather use a tool more suited to each task.
Most people can figure that out but there are some who read into Ashbey just enough to shoot a 600 grain arrow with 400 of it up front and think it's gonna do well and often, it doesn't.
His data is there but his interpretation fit his needs. Not everyone's needs fit his data.

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[muddyfuzzy]

Ashbey contributed in a great way no doubt. But his data is based on things done in a way that leaves too many variables to call it empirical. Just the difference of the rotation of a blade 10 degrees different as it hits the animal can change the performance of the setup.
Also most people aren't shooting the big 5 in Africa and would get better relative performance out of gear more suited to the type of game and hunting they do.
But you have the few who think an arrow has to weigh 15gpp and have 30% FOC to kill a 55lb whitetail in Llano county Texas and that is just BS.
Yes Ashbey killed a bunch of animals. Heck if I had the money I'd be able to go kill 27 bull elk like Michael Wadell or 50 cape buffalo like Ashbey but I'm a common man and have a common income.
I also have common sense and know that you use the better tool for the job.
I can use a 3lb shop hammer to drive a finishing nail and I can use a 1lb ball pin to dive a railroad spike but I'd rather use a tool more suited to each task.
Most people can figure that out but there are some who read into Ashbey just enough to shoot a 600 grain arrow with 400 of it up front and think it's gonna do well and often, it doesn't.
His data is there but his interpretation fit his needs. Not everyone's needs fit his data.

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Sounds like you aren’t very familiar with the studies, that’s the problem most people scan through and quickly develop their own interpretations as to the intent of the research. Lest we forget the Natal study was in response to the local governments request to find out if bowhunting was in fact a viable means for taking game. The numbers were just reported I don’t believe that Doc had any motivation other than that to be honest. Keep in mind that Doc; throughout this entire process, has always stayed away from any monetary benefit and has always tried to stay as impartial as possible. I don’t understand how you cite variability without knowing that in fact ALL variable data was recorded and processed independently. The only consistent measure was the 20 cadaver test distance and the viable test window of 30 minutes max morbidity. The reason for the study was to “test” variables not limit them and even more specifically how the translate into lethality and terminal performance.

Now nobody likes being told their off base but but on this topic your are. Regardless of wether or not you agree with what was published the controls, reasoning and methodology for the testing is clear and that isn’t really a debatable topic imo.


[emoji1662]

[DRT]

Sounds like you aren’t very familiar with the studies, that’s the problem most people scan through and quickly develop their own interpretations as to the intent of the research. Lest we forget the Natal study was in response to the local governments request to find out if bowhunting was in fact a viable means for taking game. The numbers were just reported I don’t believe that Doc had any motivation other than that to be honest. Keep in mind that Doc; throughout this entire process, has always stayed away from any monetary benefit and has always tried to stay as impartial as possible. I don’t understand how you cite variability without knowing that in fact ALL variable data was recorded and processed independently. The only consistent measure was the 20 cadaver test distance and the viable test window of 30 minutes max morbidity. The reason for the study was to “test” variables not limit them and even more specifically how the translate into lethality and terminal performance.

Now nobody likes being told their off base but but on this topic your are. Regardless of wether or not you agree with what was published the controls, reasoning and methodology for the testing is clear and that isn’t really a debatable topic imo.


[emoji1662]

I don't care if you think I'm off base. The fact is his data is misinterpreted/ misused to tell people the only type of lethal arrow set up is X because that's what Ashbey said. I read his stuff. I built some arrows. I'd have to be either 10 yards away from the animal or have a rainbow arch from any further to hit the animal.
Yes, his findings have merit. Yes, heavy arrows and heavy foc works to a point. But in has diminishing returns and sacrificing in other areas which are important as well in actual hunting scenarios. If they weren't guys and gals wouldn't be blowing 350 grain arrows with 75 grain tips through elk.

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[muddyfuzzy]

I don't care if you think I'm off base. The fact is his data is misinterpreted/ misused to tell people the only type of lethal arrow set up is X because that's what Ashbey said. I read his stuff. I built some arrows. I'd have to be either 10 yards away from the animal or have a rainbow arch from any further to hit the animal.
Yes, his findings have merit. Yes, heavy arrows and heavy foc works to a point. But in has diminishing returns and sacrificing in other areas which are important as well in actual hunting scenarios. If they weren't guys and gals wouldn't be blowing 350 grain arrows with 75 grain tips through elk.

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You still don’t get it…….if the data is misused then that’s operator error and has nothing to do with the work itself. I would care if I’m off base and would hope somebody would correct me if I was. Too much pride and ego these days, people just don’t want any constructive criticism or feedback and keep arguing just because somebody says something that doesn’t fit their narrative. The only reason this is a hot button topic is because folks just don’t want to believe anything other than what they think to be cannon. I’ve never misused or misrepresented anything regarding arrow building theory but it seems you like to paint with broad strokes and again make generalizations about people trying to shed some light on a topic from a different approach.


[emoji1662]