?whats up with protien and the 3 year plan

[warrington]

I have read multiple posts that always talk about starting a protien feeding program. Most people believe that it takes deer 3 years for you to see a difference in the size of the antlers. My question is, deers antlers potential size is due to genetics. Antlers are shed every years. My belief is that since it is due to genetics for the size of the antlers, that if you start feeding protien at the time of shedding, that you would see an immediate difference in antler size the next year. I believe that age has more to due with antler formation than the years that they have eaten protien. Example, I believe that a 5 year old deer started on protein in February and through November will give you the same results as if he was eaten protien all 5 years. I believe the difference would be the number of 5 year old deer that you see. The protien would keep them healthy enough to make it until 5-6 years of age. If you dont have the genetics you will not get the horns. This is based on both 5 year old bucks eating the same amount. If they immediatly take to the protien, I believe there is a good possibility of seeing a big jump in size of antlers if you have the age. What do yall think

[Fightinaggies]

You will see a difference in antler size year one, but not the full affect for a few years for several reasons.

1. The deer take a while to get used to eating it. They simply are not used to it and it takes a while for them to make it a substantial part of their diet, 2 to 3 years according to most studies. When a deer herd consumes .2lbs per acre/day it is considered substatial, or more depending on your deer/ acre ratio.

2. A deer that has grown up eating protien and has never had a nutritional need is going to reach their full genetic potential for horn growth. Just feeding a deer when he drops his horns is not going to be the same because they put the nutrients they consume is put towards their body first and horns second. Example, buck A is not feed protien throughout the year and lives solely off of the range is going to have to catch his body up first and then start putting more into his horns, whereas buck B who has been fed protien all year can immediatly start putting more of the nutrients towards his head gear.

3. Protien not only affects your bucks horns. It increases fawn survival which in turn if the property is managed properly will give you a greater number of bucks in that 5.5 to 6.5 yr old range. As we know not every deer is going to grow a trophy sized set of antlers regardless of age, so the odds of having one "turn out" is increased when more fawns make it through the first year. The first 1yr has the highest mortality rate in the life of a whitetail.

You are right, age is a way more important part of the equation then protien to antler growth, as well as if you dont have the genetics you wont have the horns. Genetics are a complex thing that many people make to simple. Simply culling 3 or 4 bucks off of your place that have inferior antlers as the majority of people do in the name of "management" is no more going to change the overall genetic makeup of your herd then not shooting them. Sure you are doing a little bit but it is a minute splash in the puddle. That and the doe makes up at least 50% if not more of the genetic makeup of the fawn and if anyone finds a way to tell what genetics they have on the hoof let me know. The majority of places have the ability to grow good deer with the native genetics they just lack the other factors of age and nutrition to actually produce them.


I know that is a whole lot more then you were asking for in your post but once I got started I kinda kept going.

PS. This forum needs more conversations like this, I really like seeing other hunters point of view when it comes to topics like this.

[Johnny Dangerr]

Two more points.

Your property will support more animals, and over a couple of years you will steal your neighbors deer. Adding water to the protein stations helps even more.

Good luck.....

[warrington]

excellent points. thanks for the input.

[wellingtontx]

Very good discussion.

[Russ]

This is good. Thanks

[Fightinaggies]

Two more points.

Your property will support more animals, and over a couple of years you will steal your neighbors deer. Adding water to the protein stations helps even more.

Good luck.....

The goal in a feeding program should not be to support MORE animals, it should be to better fill the nutritional needs of the ones you have. The more animals you have the more it takes to feed them. Adding more available nutrients and adding more deer at the same time will pretty much nullify the horn benefit of feeding protien. More mouths require more food so then you are left with deer getting the same amount of nutrition, you just have more of them.

Immigration and emmigration are a part of every free range feeding program and the only way to eliminate those factors is with a high fence. That is a givin. This is where harvest numbers come into play. Keeping the deer herd at or below carrying capacity is a chore and is not just a one year thing. In order to affectivly control the population it must be done every year. You have to use all of these tools together in order for any of them to be fully affective.Just throwing protien out and doing nothing in the way of keeping numbers in line with carrying capacity is not gonna give you the results everyone pictures when they start feeding protien.

[Peyton]

I'm gonna zip my lip and let Mr. Blevins do the talkin'!

Good stuff Barrett!

[Encinal]

I have read multiple posts that always talk about starting a protien feeding program. Most people believe that it takes deer 3 years for you to see a difference in the size of the antlers. My question is, deers antlers potential size is due to genetics. Antlers are shed every years. My belief is that since it is due to genetics for the size of the antlers, that if you start feeding protien at the time of shedding, that you would see an immediate difference in antler size the next year. I believe that age has more to due with antler formation than the years that they have eaten protien. Example, I believe that a 5 year old deer started on protein in February and through November will give you the same results as if he was eaten protien all 5 years. I believe the difference would be the number of 5 year old deer that you see. The protien would keep them healthy enough to make it until 5-6 years of age. If you dont have the genetics you will not get the horns. This is based on both 5 year old bucks eating the same amount. If they immediatly take to the protien, I believe there is a good possibility of seeing a big jump in size of antlers if you have the age. What do yall think

Couldn't be more untrue..

Consistent nutrition through the years is even more important than one year of great nutrition...

[Encinal]

The goal in a feeding program should not be to support MORE animals, it should be to better fill the nutritional needs of the ones you have. The more animals you have the more it takes to feed them. Adding more available nutrients and adding more deer at the same time will pretty much nullify the horn benefit of feeding protien. More mouths require more food so then you are left with deer getting the same amount of nutrition, you just have more of them.

Don't agree with that at all...

Its all about how much you are willing to feed...

What would you say is an optimal density for south Texas?

[Fightinaggies]

Don't agree with that at all...

Its all about how much you are willing to feed...

What would you say is an optimal density for south Texas?

I agree with you, if you have unlimited amounts of feed then you can support more animals, but supplemental feeding is just that. It is meant to be a supplement to their natural diet, not replace it. The competition for native forbs and browse will be higher the more deer you have regardless of how much protein you are putting out. To answer your question, I don't think there is a set in stone number you can put on the optimal deer density for a large area like all of south texas. There are to many factors such as brush management practices being applied and plant diversity from area to area and even ranch to ranch to give a "golden" number, but i would say 1/20 for a ballpark number.

In your opinion do you think you can increase your carrying capacity significantly and continue to fully meet the nutritional needs of all your deer strictly through supplemental feeding?

[canny]

The best rule of thumb when beginning a protein program is that you are manageing for the fawns of this year. This is because as deer get older their antler production slows down. bucks have ~95% of their anter growth at age 3.5 and 98% at age 4.5.

[Postoaks]

I agree with you, if you have unlimited amounts of feed then you can support more animals, but supplemental feeding is just that. It is meant to be a supplement to their natural diet, not replace it. The competition for native forbs and browse will be higher the more deer you have regardless of how much protein you are putting out. To answer your question, I don't think there is a set in stone number you can put on the optimal deer density for a large area like all of south texas. There are to many factors such as brush management practices being applied and plant diversity from area to area and even ranch to ranch to give a "golden" number, but i would say 1/20 for a ballpark number.

In your opinion do you think you can increase your carrying capacity significantly and continue to fully meet the nutritional needs of all your deer strictly through supplemental feeding?

Good stuff!!!

[Fightinaggies]

The best rule of thumb when beginning a protein program is that you are manageing for the fawns of this year. This is because as deer get older their antler production slows down. bucks have ~95% of their anter growth at age 3.5 and 98% at age 4.5.

Absoloutly false. Look at any of the studys that have corrilated age and antler growth. Antler growth can't be maximized until body maturity is reached which for skelatal growth is 3.5 and muscular growth is 4.5 to 5.5. Only after their bodies have fully matured can they start putting more of their nutrients toward horn growth and in turn growing larger antlers and this happens at 5.5 and later.

[thedosranchhand]

Learning all kinds of stuff here!