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Old 08-03-2021, 01:33 PM   #1
Stoof
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Default Ashby on the Meateater podcast.

Worth a listen. I understand the basic concepts he puts out but I don't do well with technical papers full of big words and such. He breaks down his work pretty well in terms and ideas I can actually understand. I switched to heavier arrows and single bevels a while ago and have been pretty pleased with the outcomes. I know not everyone agrees with his stuff but this episode is pretty good and they recorded it here in Texas.
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Old 08-03-2021, 05:12 PM   #2
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I has certainly made me look at my arrow set ups closely now. I'm not really looking to quickly change given the size of the TX whitetails.

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Old 08-03-2021, 05:37 PM   #3
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Listened to it today at work, definitely worth a listen whether you agree with his philosophy or not. There’s some things in there that everyone should want to learn whether you prefer light or heavy arrows.
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Old 08-04-2021, 09:23 AM   #4
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So what in the podcast makes you want to build a heavy arrow?
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Old 08-04-2021, 09:44 AM   #5
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A friend told me to listen too. Told him get back to me after this season because I ain't changing now!

I haven't listened, but what I have been told, it sounds like he is trying to get that last 1/10th of a percent of performance out of his setup.
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Old 08-04-2021, 04:07 PM   #6
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I liked the part when Dr. Ashby "corrected" Rinella on his use of the word/term American Buffalo. Ha, he "corrected" the guy who actually wrote a book on the American Buffalo.
I bet Dr. Ashby would like to have that one back.
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Old 08-04-2021, 05:36 PM   #7
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I liked the part when Dr. Ashby "corrected" Rinella on his use of the word/term American Buffalo. Ha, he "corrected" the guy who actually wrote a book on the American Buffalo.
I bet Dr. Ashby would like to have that one back.
I'm not going to listen to the podcast. So can you enlighten me as to what was said? Thanks.

By the way, Ashby is very arrogant.

now Since you wrote American buffalo I can guess us Ashby tried to tell him it's a bison, not a buffalo. If that is what he said. Then Ashby is correct. It is a bison, not a buffalo. There is a difference.

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Old 08-04-2021, 07:25 PM   #8
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I'm not going to listen to the podcast. So can you enlighten me as to what was said? Thanks.

By the way, Ashby is very arrogant.

now Since you wrote American buffalo I can guess us Ashby tried to tell him it's a bison, not a buffalo. If that is what he said. Then Ashby is correct. It is a bison, not a buffalo. There is a difference.
You are correct, but you would have to listen to the context of what Rinella was saying. Rinella bit his tongue on that part and I felt he did a lot of the episode.

With Ashby I have always felt it's not exactly what he is saying, but how he says it.
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Old 08-04-2021, 07:48 PM   #9
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You are correct, but you would have to listen to the context of what Rinella was saying. Rinella bit his tongue on that part and I felt he did a lot of the episode.

With Ashby I have always felt it's not exactly what he is saying, but how he says it.
Dang, I may just have to listen to it.

Thanks
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Old 08-04-2021, 08:38 PM   #10
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I thought it was a pretty solid episode and need to listen again without as many interruptions. Whether you like the guy or not, he's got years of experimental data so I'm all ears. He's right that marketing and advertising have taken us to believe things like speed and heavy weight are required to kill game. I'll end up revisiting my trad arrows, but doubt i do much with my compound since I stay basic to begin with.

The reports and reading on his site are pretty interesting and mostly what he talked about on the show.


https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/ashby-reports


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Old 08-05-2021, 06:02 AM   #11
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I'd put money on most people's penetration problems are due to the style and cut of the broadhead over the weight of the arrow.
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Old 08-05-2021, 01:45 PM   #12
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I'd put money on most people's penetration problems are due to the style and cut of the broadhead over the weight of the arrow.
I will add some money to yours. I say it's broadhead also.
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Old 08-05-2021, 02:00 PM   #13
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I believe penetration has the most to do with the arrow hitting the target straight. If the arrow is not flying straight when it hits it does not have all the energy pointed in the same direction. However, FOC weight helps when the arrow is not perfectly perpendicular to the target. Being well tuned is the most important thing for penetration.
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Old 08-06-2021, 08:34 AM   #14
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If you want to go down this rabbit hole Kifarucast has Ashby on. I think it was 2 or 3 years ago. It probably is a little more rounded podcast as Snyder has a lot more experience behind a bow and is playing to a more select audience than Meateater.

I believe that is where Ashby states he only would shoot 30 yards or closer. That is all great and good here in Texas, but not so much if you hunt out West and have to shoot longer. That said I still say arrow penetration is very rarely a problem on bad shots from what I have witnessed here in Texas... even when people post videos on here as well. Those evil 400 grain arrows zip right through... one lung, liver or guts. If you hit a decent sized hog high shoulder I guess that 650 grain arrow would of been better???

The old saying the "truth probably lies somewhere in the middle" seems to ring true with arrows, at least to me.
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Old 08-06-2021, 04:03 PM   #15
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I really want to build a 1600gr arrow! But yeah. Gather info and do what works for you. Iím happy around 540 gr.
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Old 08-06-2021, 04:49 PM   #16
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I finished it up yesterday! I really enjoy any of them that they do down here in Texas and same here, had me questioning and tweaking my arrow setup that afternoon.
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Old 08-06-2021, 07:43 PM   #17
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I really want to build a 1600gr arrow! But yeah. Gather info and do what works for you. Iím happy around 540 gr.
I have a 1500gr
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Old 08-07-2021, 12:32 PM   #18
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Has anyone had any experience with an arrow not penetrating a deer or hog with a broadside lung shot?

Seems he is solely focused on penetration, but spoke little on distance or accuracy.

That being said, hundreds of thousands heads of game are killed every year with sub 500 grain arrows and mechanical broad heads.
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Old 08-07-2021, 01:55 PM   #19
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Alot of Dr Ashbys research is based on big game and marginal shots. The point is, if you make a bad shot, what is the outcome with a heavy arrow?

I like to make this comparison.

Take a vw bug going 80mph and it hits a brick wall. Probably gonna make it thru the wall, if there not a lot of re enforcement.

Take the same wall, but an 18 wheeler going 65mph runs thru it, along with tables, chairs and goes thru the back of the bldg.

If I'm going for destruction, I want the 18 wheeler!
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Old 08-07-2021, 08:11 PM   #20
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Default Ashby on the Meateater podcast.

Yup, most of his research is in Africa and Australia killing stuff. I totally get it. Big giant, thick skinned animals. Makes sense from that perspective. North America is a whole other animal. (No pun intended) I still wanna shoot a 1k plus gr arrow. Probably ninja quiet and solid. (Just for fun) But what the heck do I know. Thereís also the compound vs trad and my trad gear shoots high FOC stuff much better with better results.

Last edited by Stoof; 08-07-2021 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 08-07-2021, 08:23 PM   #21
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Yup, most of his research is in Africa and Australia killing stuff. I totally get it. Big giant, thick skinned animals. Makes sense from that perspective. North America is a whole other animal. (No pun intended) I still wanna shoot a 1k plus gr arrow. Probably ninja quiet and solid. (Just for fun) But what the heck do I know. Thereís also the compound vs trad and my trad gear shoots high FOC stuff much better with better results.
X2

ďmy trad gear shoots high FOC stuff much better with better results.Ē
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Old 08-07-2021, 08:25 PM   #22
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In my meager experience with tuning bows, either compound or trad, a little more junk in the front is a little more forgiving.
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Old 08-07-2021, 08:39 PM   #23
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Hereís my compound Quandary. And Ashby loves to diss on the industry. But, compounds are being engineered for for Light and fast. Not heavy and slow. Iíve just landed in that 540 range and itís worked for me. If it feels good do it.
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Old 08-08-2021, 06:45 AM   #24
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Iím shooting a 582 grain total weight arrow. 75 grain insert with a 150 grain cut on contact broadhead. Not the heaviest set up, but Itís got a little FOC! My bow is set at 61#. Set up is super quiet. Impala and steinbuck never flinched when I shot. Arrow zipped right thru em. Got the steinbuck on video. He never moved until the arrow was all the way thru him. Same with the impala. Complete pass thru on a big gemsbok bull. I figure if itís good enuff for an animal that big, whatíll it do to a whitetail? Actually, thatís a rhetorical question. I know exactly what itíll do!

Same concept as using a 17 vs 308 for deer huntin. Sure, the 17 is lightning fast and will do the trick, if the shot is perfect. But, BUTÖ what if itís not a perfect shot? I ask you, wouldnít a bigger, heavier, slower bullet kill em better? What if the shooter flinches and hits bone? Or guts? Ive seen and heard about so many ďperfect shotsĒ, but the animal wasnít recovered. Poor penetration, no blood trailÖ

I want an arrow thatís gonna do damage, break bones and leave a blood trail!
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Old 08-08-2021, 06:57 AM   #25
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Has anyone had any experience with an arrow not penetrating a deer or hog with a broadside lung shot?

Seems he is solely focused on penetration, but spoke little on distance or accuracy.

That being said, hundreds of thousands heads of game are killed every year with sub 500 grain arrows and mechanical broad heads.

Do you watch hunting shows? Happens all the time! 2-3 inches of penetration, due to light arrows, failed mechanical BH, poor shots.

Doc stresses perfectly tuned arrows and accuracy.
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Old 08-08-2021, 09:50 AM   #26
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Do you watch hunting shows? Happens all the time! 2-3 inches of penetration, due to light arrows, failed mechanical BH, poor shots.

Doc stresses perfectly tuned arrows and accuracy.
Iíve never once seen a show where they lung shot a deer and only got 2-3Ē of penetration. Iíve never even heard of that.
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Old 08-08-2021, 10:47 AM   #27
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Iíve never once seen a show where they lung shot a deer and only got 2-3Ē of penetration. Iíve never even heard of that.
You've never seen it, so it doesnt happen... gotcha!

I think you're missin the point.

Sure, you could make a shot where the arrow goes between 2 ribs, slices thru both lungs the out the other side. Dead animal. No question. What if the animal turns at release? You flinch? The animal ducks? Lots can happen. Not saying that light, fast arrows wont kill. I like to plan on the unexpected and be prepared. That's just me. You do you!
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Old 08-08-2021, 11:53 AM   #28
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You've never seen it, so it doesnt happen... gotcha!

I think you're missin the point.

Sure, you could make a shot where the arrow goes between 2 ribs, slices thru both lungs the out the other side. Dead animal. No question. What if the animal turns at release? You flinch? The animal ducks? Lots can happen. Not saying that light, fast arrows wont kill. I like to plan on the unexpected and be prepared. That's just me. You do you!
I’m not arguing his method of a heavy arrow with a single bevel cut on contact head as being far superior when trying to bust thru a shoulder of a very big animal. I think that’s the way to go.

But the interview came off as “ if you don’t use these arrows you are setting yourself up for failure”.

I’ve not killed a ton of animals, somewhere around 15-17 head of game, but with 410 grain arrows traveling around 275 FPS I easily get full pass thrus with mechanical heads on a heart/lung shot. So I’m failing to see how these set ups get minimal penetration on broadside shots

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Old 08-08-2021, 12:37 PM   #29
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Iím not arguing his method of a heavy arrow with a single bevel cut on contact head as being far superior when trying to bust thru a shoulder of a very big animal. I think thatís the way to go.

But the interview came off as ď if you donít use these arrows you are setting yourself up for failureĒ.

Iíve not killed a ton of animals, somewhere around 15-17 head of game, but with 410 grain arrows traveling around 275 FPS I easily get full pass thrus with mechanical heads on a heart/lung shot. So Iím failing to see how these set ups get minimal penetration on broadside shots

Your setup is fine, so long as the animal is still enough that your arrow hits its original aim point (or very near it).

I would say you might have a drastically different outcome with that 410gr and mechanical if you have one jump the string and put a shoulder blade or femur in the arrowís path. Iíve seen video after video of how much deer can move between arrow release and impactÖ because of this, I run heavy arrows with high FOC as insurance when plan A doesnít come through.


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Old 08-08-2021, 07:23 PM   #30
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Iím not arguing his method of a heavy arrow with a single bevel cut on contact head as being far superior when trying to bust thru a shoulder of a very big animal. I think thatís the way to go.

But the interview came off as ď if you donít use these arrows you are setting yourself up for failureĒ.

Iíve not killed a ton of animals, somewhere around 15-17 head of game, but with 410 grain arrows traveling around 275 FPS I easily get full pass thrus with mechanical heads on a heart/lung shot. So Iím failing to see how these set ups get minimal penetration on broadside shots
Dr Ashby is an arrogant SOB. HAHA
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Old 08-08-2021, 10:12 PM   #31
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Arrogant is not my impression. Confident for sure. But Iím not shooting a water buffalo or hippo in my lifetime. Itís just information.
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Old 08-08-2021, 10:27 PM   #32
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Arrogant is not my impression. Confident for sure. But Iím not shooting a water buffalo or hippo in my lifetime. Itís just information.
Yeah I too was thinking confident due to decades of testing and data collection
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Old 08-08-2021, 10:51 PM   #33
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I did not think he was arrogant either in the podcast. He came off as very certain, but not in a offputting way.

I don’t disagree with his theories/findings, and his example of pushing an arrow thru a hide as a indicator of broadhead effectiveness certainly makes sense, I just don’t believe his methods are the only way to be effective on deer/elk size game.

It was certainly worth a listen
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Old 08-08-2021, 11:07 PM   #34
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I did not think he was arrogant either in the podcast. He came off as very certain, but not in a offputting way.

I donít disagree with his theories/findings, and his example of pushing an arrow thru a hide as a indicator of broadhead effectiveness certainly makes sense, I just donít believe his methods are the only way to be effective on deer/elk size game.

It was certainly worth a listen
If you take the weight of an arrow out of the discussion, every point Ashby makes for better arrow penetration, nobody can argue with it. Itís what cracks me up about so many that scoff at his findings and ideas. If they actually took the time to read and listen to his findings with an open mind and not the attitude theyíre the smartest guy in the room they would learn a thing or two. I mean heck the episode was chocked full of little tidbits like how to get your broadhead blades incredibly sharp (for increased penetration).

Confident yes, very. I would be too after killing 2 rhinos and studying this stuff as much as he has. Arrogant, did not come across that way at all in my opinion.
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Old 08-09-2021, 12:43 AM   #35
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If you take the weight of an arrow out of the discussion, every point Ashby makes for better arrow penetration, nobody can argue with it. Itís what cracks me up about so many that scoff at his findings and ideas. If they actually took the time to read and listen to his findings with an open mind and not the attitude theyíre the smartest guy in the room they would learn a thing or two. I mean heck the episode was chocked full of little tidbits like how to get your broadhead blades incredibly sharp (for increased penetration).

Confident yes, very. I would be too after killing 2 rhinos and studying this stuff as much as he has. Arrogant, did not come across that way at all in my opinion.
agree 100%. Not to mention that he is not commenting from the sidelines. He did his own research....he comments on his findings. He also mentions a dozen times that there is more work to be done. all good for me.
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Old 08-09-2021, 02:15 AM   #36
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I enjoyed the listen and had me taking a trip down memory lane of hunts gone by, and how they might have played out different.
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Old 08-09-2021, 09:01 AM   #37
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So Ashby has stated that he didn't shoot farther than 30 yards. I think that is where a big part of the "problem" comes in.

If you were going to Africa and going to hunt at a water hole and hunt some of their bigger game, sure use a heavy FOC arrow. You are probably shooting under 30 yards. With that said I am sure we could fill this page up with pictures of African animals that were successfully killed with 450 grain or less arrows if we want to go that route.

For those that hunt out west and shoot over 30 yards that heavy FOC arrow may not make as much since. There is just a lot more that comes into play. You have take into account where a fixed blade will hit at 60-80 yards as opposed to mechanical that might be more accurate, getting accurate ranges on the fly, arrow drop, etc.

If you are only hunting here in Texas and shooting under 30 yards from what we see if you loose an animal penetration is not the problem 99% of the time. Whenever we have to track an animal it had to do with shot placement. It is usually hit too far back and the arrow is hard to find a lot of times, since it passed through and kept going... or it was hit at a bad angle and you only get one lung. There is the occasional high shoulder shot, and those deer usually live.

For myself I like an arrow right around 500 grains and then decide if I should use a mechanical or fixed blade...depending on what I am hunting or what kind of shot I am expecting.

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Old 08-09-2021, 10:36 AM   #38
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So Ashby has stated that he didn't shoot farther than 30 yards. I think that is where a big part of the "problem" comes in.

If you were going to Africa and going to hunt at a water hole and hunt some of their bigger game, sure use a heavy FOC arrow. You are probably shooting under 30 yards. With that said I am sure we could fill this page up with pictures of African animals that were successfully killed with 450 grain or less arrows if we want to go that route.

For those that hunt out west and shoot over 30 yards that heavy FOC arrow may not make as much since. There is just a lot more that comes into play. You have take into account where a fixed blade will hit at 60-80 yards as opposed to mechanical that might be more accurate, getting accurate ranges on the fly, arrow drop, etc.

If you are only hunting here in Texas and shooting under 30 yards from what we see if you loose an animal penetration is not the problem 99% of the time. Whenever we have to track an animal it had to do with shot placement. It is usually hit too far back and the arrow is hard to find a lot of times, since it passed through and kept going... or it was hit at a bad angle and you only get one lung. There is the occasional high shoulder shot, and those deer usually live.

For myself I like an arrow right around 500 grains and then decide if I should use a mechanical or fixed blade...depending on what I am hunting or what kind of shot I am expecting.
I would say the problem is people have a hard time being challenged when they have just had one train of thought their whole life. The industry has promoted light and fast everything for quite sometime. Most shooters these days, myself included have never heard anything different than that. This is where the rub or problem comes in in my opinion.

Iím with you on 500gr. I strive for the 500-525 range. Iím not interested in going heavier because at that weight I know I can take a shot at about any angle with a good fixed head on most North American game. Like I said a few post above, if you take the arrow weight out of the conversation, thereís really nothing anyone can disagree with.
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Old 08-09-2021, 11:03 AM   #39
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Arrogant is not my impression. Confident for sure. But Iím not shooting a water buffalo or hippo in my lifetime. Itís just information.
I not saying its bad, haha

Sometimes arrogant and confident ride a very tight line.
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Old 08-09-2021, 11:07 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by diamond10x View Post
If you take the weight of an arrow out of the discussion, every point Ashby makes for better arrow penetration, nobody can argue with it. It’s what cracks me up about so many that scoff at his findings and ideas. If they actually took the time to read and listen to his findings with an open mind and not the attitude they’re the smartest guy in the room they would learn a thing or two. I mean heck the episode was chocked full of little tidbits like how to get your broadhead blades incredibly sharp (for increased penetration).

Confident yes, very. I would be too after killing 2 rhinos and studying this stuff as much as he has. Arrogant, did not come across that way at all in my opinion.
I have taken the time to read. I have broken down his study. I have spent a day at his house with him. His data is good data for low energy bows. His data is not good for compound bows. There is a lot to it. people just need to read.

The problem is how bad the heavy arrow people haven't gotten. I know I was on that train. When you start looking at physics it's easy to understand some of his tests are wrong. Not wrong outcome, but wrong on how he did it.

But when you come out and tell people you need a 650gr arrow to hunt whitetail deer. Someone is being arrogant. That is not confidence, that is ludicrous.

Last edited by enewman; 08-09-2021 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 08-09-2021, 11:45 AM   #41
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he kept mentioning the devastation of a single bevel head to internal organs. I've only cleaned a few animals that were shot with a fixed blade head but the internal damage was far less than a 3 blade mechanical.
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Old 08-09-2021, 12:33 PM   #42
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Single bevel devastation also refers to bone damage. A single bevel BH will act like a drill bit, continuing to rotate thru the obstruction breaking bone vs a double bevel that stops its rotation once it hits a mass.
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Old 08-09-2021, 12:41 PM   #43
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Again, most of ashbys research deals with big, tough animals and marginal shots.

Perfectly placed shots on thin skinned, smaller animals dont neccesarily factor into the equation. The big "what if" is when you make a poor shot on a big animal. What is the outcome? What are your odds of recovery using a heavy arrow vs light arrows?

Last edited by skeeter; 08-09-2021 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 08-09-2021, 12:52 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by skeeter View Post
Again, most of ashbys research deals with big, tough animals and marginal shots.

Perfectly placed shots on thin skinned, smaller animals dont neccesarily factor into the equation. The big "what if" is when you make a poor shot on a big animal. What is the outcome? What are your odds of recovery using a heavy arrow vs light arrows?
There is a lot of what-ifs in archery.
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Old 08-09-2021, 12:54 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by enewman View Post
There is a lot of what-ifs in archery.
Absolutely. With so many factors, wouldnt you want to do everything to increase your odds?
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Old 08-09-2021, 01:06 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by skeeter View Post
Absolutely. With so many factors, wouldn't you want to do everything to increase your odds?
Yes, but don't go overboard. I'm a 26.5 draw. People shooting 28" do not have the same issues as I do. Assuming the same bow.

But I am and I do still teach how to improve penetration potential. But mass is not the first thing I look at.
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Old 08-09-2021, 01:10 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by enewman View Post
Yes, but don't go overboard. I'm a 26.5 draw. People shooting 28" do not have the same issues as I do. Assuming the same bow.

But I am and I do still teach how to improve penetration potential. But mass is not the first thing I look at.
I'm at 27.5" draw length. Mass, BH, shot placement, all factor in, not just mass.
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Old 08-09-2021, 01:41 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter View Post
I'm at 27.5" draw length. Mass, BH, shot placement, all factor in, not just mass.
looking at what you wrote. my order would be.

1 shot placement
2 BH
3 mass.

Of course, there is more. I just looked at the three you listed.
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Old 08-09-2021, 03:14 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enewman View Post
looking at what you wrote. my order would be.

1 shot placement
2 BH
3 mass.

Of course, there is more. I just looked at the three you listed.
You nailed number 1. You could break that one down into several parts if you wanted to... Tune your bow. Get consistent with your shot process, especially under pressure. Then just shoot your bow more than worrying about the tinkering. Pick a good spot on an animal and be able to hit it consistently. If you can do that it is pretty hard to fail with the equipment that is out there today.

For the guys that say "I hit him high, but a heavy arrow/with fixed blade broke both his shoulders and it put him down quick" there is several that say "I hit him back but sure glad I was using that Carni-4 (or whatever big mechanical) so it really opened him up and that is why we found him."

Both have legitimate arguments and I like to think like a lot of thing the answer might be somewhere in the middle. Especially with today's technology with arrows and compound bows.

Last edited by Miller; 08-09-2021 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 08-09-2021, 04:57 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Miller View Post

For the guys that say "I hit him high, but a heavy arrow/with fixed blade broke both his shoulders and it put him down quick" there is several that say "I hit him back but sure glad I was using that Carni-4 (or whatever big mechanical) so it really opened him up and that is why we found him."

Both have legitimate arguments and I like to think like a lot of thing the answer might be somewhere in the middle. Especially with today's technology with arrows and compound bows.
I’ve lost 1 deer to a shoulder shot that I probsbly would have gotten with a Ashby type arrow. But I’ve recovered a few hit far back with a big 3 blade mechanical that would have been hairy with a smaller fixed.

6 in one hand half dozen in the other, but I’ve personally seen more deer shot too far back than too far forward
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