Foc. My opinion

[enewman]

Awhile back I posted a write up from tapley on foc.

I see a lot of people shooting between 10 to 12% foc. Nothing wrong with it. But. As hunters we are or should be doing everything we can to take a animal as humanly as possible. So why do so many people not build arrows for that purpose.

I'm not saying you need to build a efoc or hfoc. I'm just saying we should be building in the top of the foc. Around 15%.

You hear a lot of well high foc causes noise dives or flatter flight means less chance of a miss. This is not true. Most of us hunt at 20 yards or less. We know the yardage. So stop using that as an excuse.

With company's making stiff arrows in lighter gpi now. You can still build arrows less the 475 gn with foc in the 15 to 16 range. Muddyfuzzy does it all the time.

So for the speed people you still can have your speed and all the benifits of more foc. It's a win win

Again just my opinion on arrows.

[bowhuntntxn]

What % of FOC equates to a more humane kill than any other FOC? If 10-12 shoots good, and kills just as well when placed in the correct location, then why even worry about it?

A 19% FOC 500+ gr. arrow is just as ineffective as any other when shot into a non vital portion of an animal.

Shot location is infinitely more essential than any of the parameters you wish others to focus on IMO.

[muddyfuzzy]

Foc. My opinion

What % of FOC equates to a more humane kill than any other FOC? If 10-12 shoots good, and kills just as well when placed in the correct location, then why even worry about it?



A 19% FOC 500+ gr. arrow is just as ineffective as any other when shot into a non vital portion of an animal.



Shot location is infinitely more essential than any of the parameters you wish others to focus on IMO.

Increased FOC yields itself to greater forgiveness which can certainly increase the likelihood of a quality shot despite a poor release. Hitting the "x" on a routine basis promotes confidence, increased confidence begets better shot quality in the field....... Who can't benefit from more confidence.

I guess I am the exception and not the rule since since I still prefer to tip the odds in my favor as much as possible.

[bowhuntntxn]

Sorry muddy but I have been in this long enough to know that an arrow will never fix a bad shot. No matter how forgiving you assume it is, if it is aimed and released in the wrong spot, it will not correct that.

But I also know that a properly set up arrow will be considerably less likely to make a decent shot turn into a marginal shot based on impact. And that is with a high or low FOC.

What you are suggesting is that with a high FOC arrow, marginal shots will somehow be better, so there should be no need to improve skills, just change hardware.

[txjustin]

I don't know a lot about the technicalities of arrows, which is why I had muddy build me some.

Those have an FOC of 15.5%.

[muddyfuzzy]

Sorry muddy but I have been in this long enough to know that an arrow will never fix a bad shot. No matter how forgiving you assume it is, if it is aimed and released in the wrong spot, it will not correct that.

But I also know that a properly set up arrow will be considerably less likely to make a decent shot turn into a marginal shot based on impact. And that is with a high or low FOC.

What you are suggesting is that with a high FOC arrow, marginal shots will somehow be better, so there should be no need to improve skills, just change hardware.

I've built 70 dozen arrows this year and I stay in contact with my customers. I get constant feedback from them, ldp's, etc..... The way I look at it those 70 builds are the same as beta sites I collect information on the performance that's how I improve my processes and maintain high quality for folks. Trust me, archer perception is reality.

What I am saying is that a higher FOC arrow makes more effective use of fletching influence which can, and does, to some extent negate things like small tuning errors as well as something as simple as a sloppy release.

You are correct. Wherever the arrow is pointed when loosed generally becomes poi, not going to argue that one.

I classify the benefits of high FOC into two categories: hard an soft. Hard benefits being increased penetration, better arrow recovery etc which can be quantified and measured. Increased confidence from better accuracy and consistency in one's equipment would constitute a soft benefit. I think what Newman is trying to say here you can have your cake and eat it too in the arrow dept.

[enewman]

What % of FOC equates to a more humane kill than any other FOC? If 10-12 shoots good, and kills just as well when placed in the correct location, then why even worry about it?

A 19% FOC 500+ gr. arrow is just as ineffective as any other when shot into a non vital portion of an animal.

Shot location is infinitely more essential than any of the parameters you wish others to focus on IMO.

When we build arrows. We should do everything we can to account for a bad shot. Muddy calls this T.A.P.

yes shot placement is number one. But I see it all the time. Good shot placement very little penetration. This is all do to the arrow set up for that bow.

So in my opinion. People are shooting to light of arrow. So why get just a heavier arrow gpi. When you can make the arrow heavier by increasing foc. With tip weight. With correct spine. Then you get better arrow flight and better penetration.

People are hung up. Yes people have been killing for years at 10%. Yes and so have I. Since around 1995. speed is all I cared about. But I shot a deer in the leg with zero penitration a few years back. Lost deer. Now I shoot more foc in turn I have more weight. Now with that same shot I have no problems getting into that deer.

Now to your question what % well that is a loaded question. Because lots of facts come into play.

According to Dr Ashby 19% now that is also a 650 gn arrow with .57 momentum. I have seen where my arrow did not make it through a hog with that specs other then weight it was at 500 Now with the 550 gn arrow same foc but with momentum at .62 was a complete pass.

So. Now let's look at that statement. That would make momentum number two. So how do we increase momentum speed and arrow weight. So we are stuck with the speed we have so all we can do is adjust for weight to increase momentum. What is the best way to do that and get all the benifits we can.

Increase tip weight. In turn we increase FOC.

[enewman]

I like chocolate

[muddyfuzzy]

I got a chocolate addiction too....

[Sleepy]

I'm a firm believe in FOC. Made the change this year, from probably some horrible FOC (fmj) with standard inserts and 100gr heads to new arrows with 43gr insert and 125gr head. Should be right around 15% now, and penetration is superb. 435gr arrow at 284fps is scaring 80lbs/KE and .55 momentum (can't remember exactly). My accuracy is better at longer ranges also.

[Mike Javi Cooper]

The effect of higher FOC is somewhat negated by increased speed especially at 20 yards..

The slower the arrow the more FOC becomes important to both accuracy and penetration.

Increasing FOC will definitely decrease fight path upset from a bad release, and outside influences like wind or slight impact with a tree limb, shoot thru netting etc.... As an added bonus increasing weight while increasing FOC will also increase stability in flight and momentum to a degree..

One last thing... there are SPEED archers, there are Ke archers and there are Momentum archers.... you will never get one to accept the other...

[enewman]

One last thing... there are SPEED archers, there are Ke archers and there are Momentum archers.... you will never get one to accept the other... [/QUOTE]


You are right on this. But I still can try. Haha. some have been converted. Example. Tbh member popup menace. He is looking and building higher foc arrows. I have never met this man. But we talk and have become great friends. Right along with many others on this sight. I'm here to help all I can I'm sure some of my opinions are bad but. If they work for others and can see a benifit then it's all good.



If people would just look at how the old timers used to do it. Everything would just come into place.

Heavy high foc and stealth. Works everytime

One other thing. If people would look at what foc does for arrow flight and understand about leverage. The shorter the arrow the more foc is required for good arrow flight.

[Mudslinger]

Not sure if it was the huge increase in the total weight of my set up, 150 grains or going from around 10% FOC to close to 20% FOC, but one thing I did notice was that the forgiveness and accuracy increased dramatically. I do agree, a bad shot is a bad shot and nothing will help that.

[bowhuntntxn]

Don't get me wrong, I think muddy builds a great arrow, and is really good at what he does. There are also advantages to a heavier arrow with a high FOC. But to imply that it is a solution for bad shots, or will help an archer make fewer marginal or ill advised shots is simply not the case. As a matter of fact, it could give the shooter a false sense of security about their abilities.

I by no means am a speed freak when it comes to archery nor do I follow the harder it hits the more knock down power an arrow has route. I believe not enough people adhere to the shoot the best you possibly can and the rest will take care of itself mentality. Millions of hunters will kill tens of thousands of animals this fall with a massive variety of set ups, and thousands of animals will also be lost. The only common theme to them all is shot placement.

Light or heavy, fast or slow, if you don't hit the animal in a spot that will kill it quickly and humanely, nothing will fix that.

[enewman]

Maybe I left out some words or I wrote it wrong. I'm bad about that. Thinking faster then I can type.

I never meant high foc or heavy arrows will fix a bad shot. Nothing fixes that.

What I was saying. Is there are great benifits to an high foc arrow. In turn gives you more total weight. And this arrow will help on some bad shots. Mainly in the shoulder area. If you miss the vitals then it's bad no matter what. But if you hit bone. Then the high foc/ heavy arrow will improve this bad shot.

And I'm only talking about one aspect of having more foc. There are a lot of other benifits.