The Elk Thread

[swamprabbit59]

Originally Posted by Steady_Hand

Drew unit 71 for archery. This will be my first time, any pointers for the area?

Yes, get in good shape


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[Bill]

Originally Posted by ladrones

Whining for Welfare in the Gila again.

https://www.krqe.com/news/new-mexico...cUx2GSHXHlLWfs

I hope the Judge looks at them in court and says,

“Let me understand this. You ranch an area that’s always had elk on it, so did your fathers and grandfathers. There are law-abiding hunters who would love to have access to your ranches and I understand they can’t trespass on your land. Now your have the right as landowners to say who can and who can’t hunt on it, but you guys have nutz coming in front of me saying the state owes you anything.

The same people you want to pay to solve your problem are the same you won’t allow on your ranches.

I want you to sit down with the game warden and come back in 30 days with a plan of how many hunters you could have on each ranch, each day of the season to help solve your problem. Next case, please”




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[justletmein]

Originally Posted by Bill

I hope the Judge looks at them in court and says,

“Let me understand this. You ranch an area that’s always had elk on it, so did your fathers and grandfathers. There are law-abiding hunters who would love to have access to your ranches and I understand they can’t trespass on your land. Now your have the right as landowners to say who can and who can’t hunt on it, but you guys have nutz coming in front of me saying the state owes you anything.

The same people you want to pay to solve your problem are the same you won’t allow on your ranches.

I want you to sit down with the game warden and come back in 30 days with a plan of how many hunters you could have on each ranch, each day of the season to help solve your problem. Next case, please”




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That seems like an appropriate response!

[Jared.King]

Got some bulls on my other camera at a waterhole! Somewhere in unit 37 NM

[Slick8]

Been exercising more and more. Using a weighted pack and ankle weights with all my cardio. Working 3-4 days a week and will increase that as time goes by.

Rifle has been dialed in but will get some powder burned in it before long as I love to shoot.

Been strategizing on Google Earth, Google Maps and OnX to form a plan. I've got a full plate this summer but hoping to scratch a weekend scouting trip. I'd like to at least drive the area's looking at access points and such.

I have most all my gear including two different badlands packs. I'm thinking I'd like to upgrade my boots and need to move on it soon for break in.

Excited is an understatement.

[justletmein]

Originally Posted by Slick8

Been exercising more and more. Using a weighted pack and ankle weights with all my cardio. Working 3-4 days a week and will increase that as time goes by.

I quit drinking beer yesterday so that's a start lol.

We struck out on our apps but it looks like both my boys who live in Wyoming are interested in going on their first Elk hunt so I'll have to whip up some conditioning so I can go up and play guide. They both got their first Antelope last year so a heck of a step up this year. Their draw deadline is June 1 so I had them put in for an Area they've got 21% draw odds in but realistically they'll just end up buying General tags so I need to get started on tracking down some General units and make a plan. There's so much territory it's kind of daunting to get started but I've got some preliminary ideas. I'm just as excited to go whether I shoot or not makes no difference I still get to hunt and hopefully punish my legs with a heavy pack out.

[Slick8]

I hear ya. I don't drink a lot but have cut back in other area's with a goal of dropping 15 pounds. I'm down 3 pounds so far and feel like I'll comfortably be at Goal weight around September 1st. I'm using a 50 pound pack and reminded of what I was carrying around daily until about 2 years ago. I dropped 50 pounds in 2019 and gained about 15 back last year but was holding.

I'll cut out all alcohol sometime in September and possibly after my labor day wedding.

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[justletmein]

Originally Posted by justletmein

I plan to prep by stop drinking beer end of June. I may have been doing some heavier leg workouts on lift days too though.

Got a new bow I need to build arrows for, guess I'll pay for the software to calculate it all out and get setup. Been practicing with my old bow's arrows but I suspect they're a bit weak spined.

Originally Posted by JTeLarkin08

my new arrows are going to be stupid lol.. THey will be the best arrow I have ever shot but they will also be the most expensive arrow ive ever built

Yeah so I ended up with the Triad XSD. I have no idea what mood I was in when I decided it was a good idea to spend that money but I hope it doesn't happen again any time soon.

[Stoof]

Anyone familiar with CO GMU 53, especially the Watson Flats area? Got a few questions.

Thanks,

[Bill]

Keep up your workouts boys. The mountains (and elk) are awaiting!

I’m moving my workouts into the local Montana national forest and starting scouting.




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[Bill]

The Montana governor signed SB 98 in May. Federal endangered species act be ******, Montana law says it’s legal to shoot a griz in defense of yourself, others or livestock.




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[Lostacresranch]

Originally Posted by swamprabbit59

Lol sounds like they should run elk hunts. Would probably make a lot of money and could run fewer cows. Definitely less of a headache


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Did you read the link? The ranchers WANT to allow hunting. They want the permits to do just that. The state denies them.

[Lostacresranch]

Originally Posted by Bill

I hope the Judge looks at them in court and says,

“Let me understand this. You ranch an area that’s always had elk on it, so did your fathers and grandfathers. There are law-abiding hunters who would love to have access to your ranches and I understand they can’t trespass on your land. Now your have the right as landowners to say who can and who can’t hunt on it, but you guys have nutz coming in front of me saying the state owes you anything.

The same people you want to pay to solve your problem are the same you won’t allow on your ranches.

I want you to sit down with the game warden and come back in 30 days with a plan of how many hunters you could have on each ranch, each day of the season to help solve your problem. Next case, please”




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That’s exactly what the ranchers WANT to DO! They want permits to allow elk hunters to hunt on them.

[Texans42]

Originally Posted by Bill

I hope the Judge looks at them in court and says,

“Let me understand this. You ranch an area that’s always had elk on it, so did your fathers and grandfathers. There are law-abiding hunters who would love to have access to your ranches and I understand they can’t trespass on your land. Now your have the right as landowners to say who can and who can’t hunt on it, but you guys have nutz coming in front of me saying the state owes you anything.

The same people you want to pay to solve your problem are the same you won’t allow on your ranches.

I want you to sit down with the game warden and come back in 30 days with a plan of how many hunters you could have on each ranch, each day of the season to help solve your problem. Next case, please”




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You are highly uneducated on the subject. Those unit wide tags open the Ranch To PUBLIC HUNTING, it’s a condition of the program.


I hope they win and get blank depredation permits, and lay them down, like the old days. Only way the point will get made.

You might want to research why they are sueing, current administration proposed lowering the LO voucher program even more. The LO voucher program has been extremely critical not only in buying tolerance but furthering conservation via incentivizing habitat improvement. It was a win win. Not to mention the state wildlife normally gets almost 8x the revenue from these few tags that aren’t in the Res pool.

You have obviously never had substantial ag damage due to wildlife, I’ve had a corn circle laid down and that was rough 200k income and expense loss.

[Bill]

Please educate me. My knowledge is from the article posted, which says the lawsuit seeks relief since the State has not protected the ranchers from depredating elk.

Uneducated? Retired with a BS, MS, and MBA here. You?

[justletmein]

I haven't educated myself on the topic, but was under the impression this was simply a move to get more LO tags to sell hunts for profit. Seems if they just wanted to ease the depredation from the Elk they could allow anyone with tags for that unit to hunt there couldn't they? Am I way off base?

If this lawsuit works I may have a case against the city for fire ants in my yard.

[ladrones]

Originally Posted by Bill

Please educate me. My knowledge is from the article posted, which says the lawsuit seeks relief since the State has not protected the ranchers from depredating elk.

Uneducated? Retired with a BS, MS, and MBA here. You?

They do this every time they want more welfare in the form of high value unit wide tags.

[Texans42]

Originally Posted by Bill

Please educate me. My knowledge is from the article posted, which says the lawsuit seeks relief since the State has not protected the ranchers from depredating elk.

Uneducated? Retired with a BS, MS, and MBA here. You?

Your MBA isn't in reading comprehension. My comment, as the sentence was written, was solely based on this subject, not general overall education. I’m not here to get in a measuring contest. My degrees, accreditation age, retirement age, and holdings are irrelevant.

Again the program that they are suing over has previously lowered “unit wide tag” allotments, and is up to vote to be eliminated. The unit wide voucher program they want increased instead of decreased OPENS every PROPERTY (that gets a tag) to PUBLIC hunting for EVERYONE. Therefore your commentary is not relevant to the discussion.

It wasn’t long ago Dept of Ag authorized blank depredation permits, that benefited no one outside of “temporary” relief of landowners.

The monetary gain of unit wide tags to both the State and Landowner has been a huge incentive in buying tolerance of damages caused by higher densities of elk.

Facts

• Opponents of the program want tags allocated in the resident pool.(I get the thought process, but with out private land owner tolerance, we wouldnt have the historic numbers we have today).
• 99% of vouchers bring in 7x more state funding revenue than a Res Tag
• Gila population has been stable or growing most years, even after Wolf introduction. As has almost all primary core elk units.
• The unit wide voucher program opens private land to public hunting

NM has a premium elk herd built on back of private landowners, this program is a model of partner coexistence between ranching/farming and wildlife.

[Texans42]

Originally Posted by ladrones

They do this every time they want more welfare in the form of high value unit wide tags.

I get your sediment since you have always pushed for higher resident allocation. I get that, but NM has had one of the best solutions in the lower 48 for LO wildlife conflicts IMO. Utah and CO isn’t near as public or access hunting friendly

New Mexico has entered the land scape of ballot biology and ballot hunting, it won’t be long before a the Dept of Ag gets pushed or forced once again to sign a blanket depredation order. It’s happened in every state including NM.

A few tags for tolerance and open access isn’t a bad compromise.

[Bill]

I re-read the article that started this discussion. There’s nothing in it about vouchers, unit wide tags or the other information you posted.

My comment (tongue in cheek) was based on the article posted. It says the 8 ranchers are suing “because the state is not protecting them from elk”.


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[Mouse]

I remember a conversation from about 20 years ago among a group of ranchers when one of the 3rd generation ranchers told the group that elk would put us out of business long before the wolf had the opportunity to.

[ladrones]

Originally Posted by Bill

I re-read the article that started this discussion. There’s nothing in it about vouchers, unit wide tags or the other information you posted.

My comment (tongue in cheek) was based on the article posted. It says the 8 ranchers are suing “because the state is not protecting them from elk”.


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It’s just drama from some of the landowners that have land in the money units. It’s a tactic that is always used when someone is about to lose out on the “unit wide” welfare tags.

[Texans42]

Originally Posted by Bill

I re-read the article that started this discussion. There’s nothing in it about vouchers, unit wide tags or the other information you posted.

My comment (tongue in cheek) was based on the article posted. It says the 8 ranchers are suing “because the state is not protecting them from elk”.


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Yes and I’m giving you the real context, facts and background of the situation/program.

If they go the depredation route, it’s becomes a situation to lower populations to decrease damages. (ranch/farm will still have damages, just less). Where as the voucher program, is a reimbursement of damages. Big difference. One purpose is to lower over populations which lowers all public opportunity, while the other option increases or maintains populations and the correlating opportunity.

It's been a win win program, unfortunately some just view it as a tag allocation problem and don't see the overall big picture. They will win if they push for Depredation tags w/Ag, but this way is actually a win for all sportsman. It will counter ballots.

[quackadikt]

Originally Posted by Texans42

Yes and I’m giving you the real context, facts and background of the situation/program.

If they go the depredation route, it’s becomes a situation to lower populations to decrease damages. (ranch/farm will still have damages, just less). Where as the voucher program, is a reimbursement of damages. Big difference. One purpose is to lower over populations which lowers all public opportunity, while the other option increases or maintains populations and the correlating opportunity.

It's been a win win program, unfortunately some just view it as a tag allocation problem and don't see the overall big picture. They will win if they push for Depredation tags w/Ag, but this way is actually a win for all sportsman. It will counter ballots.

Wrong. It's a win for the ranchers that get UW tags. You know good and well that the OVERWHELMING majority of "ranches" in the Gila are extremely small private inholdings and mostly USFS leases. People can already hunt those ranches if they draw a tag, minus the private ground. A UW tag in the Gila is big money, but the majority of that money is going to the LO for the voucher. Yes, there is a higher cost for a NR license that the state is going to get, but the bulk of that $15k is going to the rancher.

E Plus is a ridiculous system. UW private tags shouldn't be an option...if you want LO tags, it should be for deeded ground only and all those UW tags should go into the draw pool.

NM REALLY needs to drop the restrictions on cow tags. I thought that was completely asinine even when I was a resident there.

[Texans42]

Originally Posted by ladrones

It’s just drama from some of the landowners that have land in the money units. It’s a tactic that is always used when someone is about to lose out on the “unit wide” welfare tags.

I've personally been on the their side of the fence and had meetings at the Sec Ago and Wildlife Commissioner level. I've also witnessed what happens to wildlife when Politics say no, and elk herds are caught across state lines(like TX) and whole herds are slaughtered.

Denying the significant income loss isn't helping anyone. At the end of the day, NM’s Unit wide Programs in core elk areas opens up more land for the public(through additional acreage and access) and maintains current populations levels.

[Texans42]

Originally Posted by quackadikt

Wrong. It's a win for the ranchers that get UW tags. You know good and well that the OVERWHELMING majority of "ranches" in the Gila are extremely small private inholdings and mostly USFS leases. People can already hunt those ranches if they draw a tag, minus the private ground. A UW tag in the Gila is big money, but the majority of that money is going to the LO for the voucher. Yes, there is a higher cost for a NR license that the state is going to get, but the bulk of that $15k is going to the rancher.

E Plus is a ridiculous system. UW private tags shouldn't be an option...if you want LO tags, it should be for deeded ground only and all those UW tags should go into the draw pool.

NM REALLY needs to drop the restrictions on cow tags. I thought that was completely asinine even when I was a resident there.

Absolutely I know they are small, thus why they are unit wide tags. NF Leased land is a separate issue.

If growing elk densities cause a loss in stocking rates on Private land then compensating them with a tag that generates money for the state and covers private loses is the right thing to do, especially if it maintains elk populations.

Those ranchers are not open to public without the UW program. Forget just hunting the private, look at how many acres of access some of those properties block. It's not just the gila but every primary elk unit in the state.

I agree with you on the cow tags, then again that's the same legislative decision process that's trying to also phase out ALL vouchers. Same voters that would also vote no to all NR’s tag if they could.

[justletmein]

Originally Posted by Texans42

Those ranchers are not open to public without the UW program. Forget just hunting the private, look at how many acres of access some of those properties block. It's not just the gila but every primary elk unit in the state.

So from the outside looking in, without a dog in this hunt, it would seem to me that if they were actually worried about depredation and Elk overgrazing and competing with cattle then they'd be perfectly happy opening the ranch to the public who drew tags without being paid for it. No?

[Texans42]

Originally Posted by justletmein

So from the outside looking in, without a dog in this hunt, it would seem to me that if they were actually worried about depredation and Elk overgrazing and competing with cattle then they'd be perfectly happy opening the ranch to the public who drew tags without being paid for it. No?

Only in theory.

Elk migrate through food sources year round. Allowing access doesn't lower elk levels unless you increase tags enough to actually lower the entire unit’s population. That's the biggest difference between deperdation programs and Transferable unit wide tag programs. Deperdation is to lower overall populations to lesson year round damages, where as a transferable voucher tag is to be sold to off set loses, while maintaining herd numbers, and public opportunity.

Tag allocation is based on stabilzing populations, in a sustainability model. Those tags increase or decrease according to the calf recruitment and hunter success.

I good example is if you wanted more tags allocated in the gila but still maintained year to year harvest numbers, then you would restrict means of harvest or Season dates. In NM, means of harvest strategy that would decrease success % thus allowing for more tags
allocation would be changing Muzzleloader REGS to match CO. Making ML less effective would lower success and increase need for more tags.

This argument is really brought forth because NM wants more Res tags period. The general population doesn't care about ranchers or farmers, just more RES OPPORTUNITY. It’s not just in this particular area, it’s state wide.

[El General]

As a non resident, I don't see any benefit to landowners losing their landowner tags. The NR tag allocation is so low that it won't benefit us, imo.

[Jared.King]

Big guy! Not sure how big, but I’m excited! Somewhere in unit 37 NM

[Jared.King]

Same bull

[Texans42]

Great fronts, I hunt deer there a bunch, can't draw an elk tag to save my life

[Pernell]

Does anyone know what NM unit 15 tags are going for this year?

[Bill]

Y’all be careful and prepared if you’re heading this way to chase elk. A woman was killed by a griz NW of Helena this morning.

SSS- Shoot, Shoot, keep Shooting

Governor Gianforte signed SB 98 in March, which reads in part

(4) In accordance with the rights conferred on Montana citizens pursuant to Article II, sections 3 and 12, of the Montana constitution, the legislature finds the act of a grizzly bear attacking, killing, or threatening to kill a person or livestock is an absolute defense against a person who takes a grizzly bear in accordance with this section being charged with a crime under Montana law.


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/grizzly...clist-montana/


Bill




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[solocam_aggie]

Originally Posted by Jared.King

Big guy! Not sure how big, but I’m excited! Somewhere in unit 37 NM

Dang brother!! You got me even more pumped for September now. I’m really hoping I can break away for a weekend and set cameras up. Send that big one a little west for me


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[Vito79]

Drove by unit 77 this morning and we saw a herd of cows with calf’s all along the mountain side! If you hunt this area this year it looked great, wish I would have stopped and taken a picture! I will be putting in next year for this drawing!


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[Death from Above]

Knee butcher says September is a no go…getting old stinks.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by Death from Above

Knee butcher says September is a no go…getting old stinks.

“You have to grow up but you don’t have to grow old”- somebody told me that a long time ago. Sorry about the knee busting your hunting plans.


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[Bill]

Originally Posted by Bill

Y’all be careful and prepared if you’re heading this way to chase elk. A woman was killed by a griz NW of Helena this morning.

SSS- Shoot, Shoot, keep Shooting

Governor Gianforte signed SB 98 in March, which reads in part

(4) In accordance with the rights conferred on Montana citizens pursuant to Article II, sections 3 and 12, of the Montana constitution, the legislature finds the act of a grizzly bear attacking, killing, or threatening to kill a person or livestock is an absolute defense against a person who takes a grizzly bear in accordance with this section being charged with a crime under Montana law.


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/grizzly...clist-montana/






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The FWP wardens shot a bear, awaiting dna confirmation it was the bear.

I was at the Vet last week and a guy showed me a griz print in the mud from Eureka Basin here in the Graveleys Range.

4 shots, one of ya is dead. Please take it seriously. Bear spray or a gun that can’t be unholstered and deployed within seconds will not help. Training teaches to carry an extra can in your pack. If you empty a can getting rid of a bear, the hike out is frightening without another can ready- buy a 2 pack at Costcos in Montana. Don’t leave it on the dash of a pickup in the sun either.

Hunt hard-life’s short.






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[whitetailslayer]

In gearing up for september elk hunt, I've been scouting via OnX and Google Earth. There's a layer that has a portion of the unit boundary labeled "State of Idaho" that surrounded by private land.

Would this be considered legally huntable? Just want to verify as it looks like a spot worth scouting further.

Thanks in advance!

[justletmein]

Originally Posted by whitetailslayer

In gearing up for september elk hunt, I've been scouting via OnX and Google Earth. There's a layer that has a portion of the unit boundary labeled "State of Idaho" that surrounded by private land.

Would this be considered legally huntable? Just want to verify as it looks like a spot worth scouting further.

Thanks in advance!

How are you gonna get to it?

[wytex]

Umm, yeah you need access through that private to be legal. Better check to see what laws Idaho has on their state lands as well. Not sure if they are like Colorado and lease those hunting rights out so no legal hunting without that lease's permission.
https://www.idl.idaho.gov/about-us/maps-land-records/

[jaker_cc]

My hunting partner found some bulls in our area over the weekend. Looks like some good growth

[justletmein]

Nice. They look like they recognize him in that last picture. "Heeeey buddy, it's not season yet buddy!"

[Bill]

Originally Posted by whitetailslayer

In gearing up for september elk hunt, I've been scouting via OnX and Google Earth. There's a layer that has a portion of the unit boundary labeled "State of Idaho" that surrounded by private land.

Would this be considered legally huntable? Just want to verify as it looks like a spot worth scouting further.

Thanks in advance!

Call the Idaho game department. The answer in Montana is no. We have lots of BLM land surrounded (locked) by private ranches.

If the NW corner of one touches the SE corner of the other, it’s called ‘corner jumping’ and also considered trespassing.

On OnX you can get the owner’s name and tax address. Write the owner a hand-written letter and ask politely for trespass.

Most people will not ask.

Also in Montana (I don’t know about Idaho) I do not need to post or mark the boundary of my land. If you’re out there hunting, it’s your responsibility to find it. Signs, painting posts red, putting red coffee cans on posts is a courtesy done by the land owner.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by wytex

Umm, yeah you need access through that private to be legal. Better check to see what laws Idaho has on their state lands as well. Not sure if they are like Colorado and lease those hunting rights out so no legal hunting without that lease's permission.
https://www.idl.idaho.gov/about-us/maps-land-records/

Even if it’s not leased out- it’s still their land do with what they want.


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[Heath]

Can you take a helicopter in and do a drop like they do in Alaska?

[justletmein]

Originally Posted by Heath

Can you take a helicopter in and do a drop like they do in Alaska?

Newberg did that somewhere in Montana. I believe he said he couldn't hunt the same day as the flight or something.

[diamond10x]

Originally Posted by Heath

Can you take a helicopter in and do a drop like they do in Alaska?

Yes

[whitetailslayer]

Thank you for the great insight! I'll reach out to the DNR for additional verification. I should have stated that it does partially connect to BLM so not truly locked.
Also, Bill you're on point. Nothing beats a handwritten letter.

Thanks again guys.

Edit:
For those that use the OnX map ( I'm new to the app), I'm assuming the greenish yellow shaded areas illustrate what is considered public or legal to hunt, however the area that I mentioned, is shaded the bluish tint. Is there a legend that states these different layers and their meanings?