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Old 09-26-2020, 09:58 AM   #1
DRT
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What do you shoot?
1. Three under or split?
2. Aiming system and which one? (Fixed crawl, gap etc)
3. Has this changed for you over the years and if so why and how long to master the change?

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Old 09-26-2020, 11:00 AM   #2
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I shoot 3 under. It seems to work best for me, partly because it allows me to use cock fletch to tip of nose as second anchor. I draw with three then drop my ring finger off the string at anchor and release with two. After consistantly getting my butt kicked on the 3D range by pure gap shooters I have often thought I should learn it but I have never committed the time necessary. For lack of a better term I would say I shoot instinctive but I’m sure there is some unconscious gapping going on. The only problem with this aiming method is it takes longer for your accuracy to come back after a lay off from shooting.
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Old 09-26-2020, 11:52 AM   #3
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Thanx jerp. I've been analyzing my shot style this year and realized that I "see" more in my shot picture than just my spot I'm shooting at. That said, after season, I may have to adjust. However learning what and how, like how to determine arrow length needed to gap, is outside of my knowledge base.

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Old 09-26-2020, 11:57 AM   #4
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Interesting timing, Gary. A week ago, I would have said Instinctive, which I have used for several years -- with modifications from split finger with a glove, then three-under with a glove, then three-under with a tab (moving anchor back and up).

Now, I'm experimenting with a fixed crawl. We shall see. If it doesn't come right along, I may put it off til after the season.
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Old 09-26-2020, 12:05 PM   #5
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I shoot split finger, and what is called instinctive. I have a very unconventionally low anchor point, but it works for me.

I have tried to learn to gap before, but it just didnít work for me.

I would love to learn how to shoot a fixed crawl, but to do so, I would have to rework my whole shot, and I think Iím just too old and stubborn to want to go thru that!

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Old 09-26-2020, 12:35 PM   #6
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Bisch, not sure about to old , but too stubborn.,,..

Besides, you donít need to change a thing about your shot


I shoot a fixed crawl, with a bit of face walking thrown in. I have an alternating anchor depending on the distance. For hunting I canít see the need to ever change. I know itís discouraged in some 3-D shoots, perhaps because itís so effective?
Hmmm
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Old 09-26-2020, 12:47 PM   #7
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I'm pretty sure I shoot gap stinctive. My high anchor point puts the arrow nock just off to the side and under my eyes veiw.
I'm not sure how to adjust it lower and inward due to my neck rotation issues and big azz nose. But now that I've learned enough about my shot sequence, enough input from guys like Rick Barbee and a couple of others helped me be more aware of that, I want to be as deadly as I can be consistently.

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Old 09-26-2020, 12:49 PM   #8
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I shoot split finger. I've always shot instinctive. It has always worked for me and I don't see any reason to change.
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Old 09-26-2020, 12:52 PM   #9
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Phillip how far does your instinctive shot allow you to be deadly accurate? Mine is fairly close. Like 20 and under close.

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Old 09-26-2020, 12:57 PM   #10
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Gary, I try to keep my shots to 20 yds and under. Back when I was shooting a lot of 3d I was comfortable to about 30 yds.
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Old 09-26-2020, 01:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexKing View Post
Bisch, not sure about to old , but too stubborn.,,..

Besides, you donít need to change a thing about your shot


I shoot a fixed crawl, with a bit of face walking thrown in. I have an alternating anchor depending on the distance. For hunting I canít see the need to ever change. I know itís discouraged in some 3-D shoots, perhaps because itís so effective?
Hmmm
Well, it's your moose story that has me working on fixed crawl.
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Old 09-26-2020, 01:13 PM   #12
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Well I'd like to shoot under 15. Just after 20 I get pretty inconsistent and it doesn't seem to matter how much I practice 25 or 30.

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Old 09-26-2020, 02:33 PM   #13
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I shoot split and I don’t reference the arrow at least not that I know of. I guess you call that instinctive.
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Old 09-26-2020, 03:33 PM   #14
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3 under fixed crawl with tab assistance cause I got ‘office worker fingers’!
My main reason for this choice was because I’m only shooting this thing for hunting purposes. I have had fun with the first shot challenges though.
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Old 09-26-2020, 03:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
I'm pretty sure I shoot gap stinctive. My high anchor point puts the arrow nock just off to the side and under my eyes veiw.
I'm not sure how to adjust it lower and inward due to my neck rotation issues and big azz nose. But now that I've learned enough about my shot sequence, enough input from guys like Rick Barbee and a couple of others helped me be more aware of that, I want to be as deadly as I can be consistently.

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This is the perfect use case for a canted bow Gary. I have a slight cant when I shoot to get the arrow under my eye. I draw with a vertical bow, anchor and align my form, then pivot at the sternum till the arrow is in a straight line to the target.

As for my shooting, I am 3 under, and a gap shooter. But I gap at the riser, because I can't get arrows long enough to have a point on closer than 35-40 yards. I recently (this week) changed my anchor point because I was slapping the tar out of my face with my fingers (and shooting like crap because I was flinching). I am shooting almost as well as, or better than, I ever have now.
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Old 09-26-2020, 06:54 PM   #16
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I describe my shooting as 3 under tab with a gap to “set up” shot, then keep pulling that “look” for just a quick tic, then shift to an instinctive both eyes focus on my target and then pull through release. Never tried to write out my shot sequence before but I believe that is what I am doing. I guess that is maybe a combination of shooting styles, but this seems to work best for me, your mileage may vary.
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Old 09-26-2020, 08:51 PM   #17
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The trouble with canting is getting the consistent angle. At least for me.
I'm fairly lethal out to 16 to 18 yards. Although I really try to wait to under 15. I just want to see if it is worth while to invest the time and effort to change and what to change to if I should.
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Last edited by DRT; 09-26-2020 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 09-28-2020, 11:15 AM   #18
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I shoot 3 under with a tab and am instinctive until 25 yards (point on is 30, so 25-30 is an easy gap). I will reference the arrow to make sure my right eye is over the arrow. I will miss to the left consistently and get face scrapes if my head is too vertical. Anchor point is so that my index finger is pretty much on my top molars.

At this point, I just do whatever Tom Clum says and look at what the better 3D and IBO are using for equipment. Originally started split with a tab, then 3 under with a glove. The tab seems much smoother and more consistent than a glove with a deep hook, and 3 under allows your brain to calculate trajectory much easier.

I set up all of my hunting stands for 15-20 yard shots, but it's nice to know that I can stretch it out if there is an opportunity outside of the blind. Plus, it's just really fun to target shoot 30+ yards...
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Old 09-28-2020, 01:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
What do you shoot?
1. Three under or split?
2. Aiming system and which one? (Fixed crawl, gap etc)
3. Has this changed for you over the years and if so why and how long to master the change?

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1. I've always shot split since I was seven years old. I fisted it before that. I have tried three-under a few times, but it just didn't take.

2. I have mostly shot instinctive my whole life. It wasn't until a few years ago, though, that I found out I'm the wrong-eye dominant, which explains why I never got very good. I thought my sight picture was normal. Rather than trying to shoot left handed, I've been trying to train my other eye by closing my dominant eye when I shoot. Since then, I've been trying gap shooting with some success, but I'm honesty not working that hard at it at the moment.

3. See 1 and 2.
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Old 09-28-2020, 01:58 PM   #20
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I shot split finger instinctive for about 13 years. I played around with 3 under a few times but it never stuck. Played with fixed crawl but it causes target panic for me. A few months ago I decided to give 3 under a solid effort. Adjusted bow tune for it. Now i am 100% on the 3 under band wagon because I am shooting far better than I ever have. I was decent shooting split but I could never clean up the flyers. 3 under seems to have fixed that. I have shot hundreds of thousands of arrows most likely and my brain knows what a correct sight picture looks like. You know how you can draw on an animal you do not intend to shoot and just feel so solid about it without the pressure of actually making the shot? So I try to replicate that in my shot process. Solid bow arm, anchor hard, and wait for my brain to say yep that's what it's supposed to look like. Then a little back tension and the arrow is gone.
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Old 09-29-2020, 12:44 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
What do you shoot?
1. Three under or split?
2. Aiming system and which one? (Fixed crawl, gap etc)
3. Has this changed for you over the years and if so why and how long to master the change?

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1.) 3 UNDER

2.) 3D-GAP
Hunting: newly transitioning to fixed crawl

3.) Lots of changes in my shooting the last few years. I transitioned from shooting a glove, split fingered, and 100% instinctive to shooting a tab, 3 under and gapping a little over 2 years ago. Although I feel my consistency and accuracy increased with those changes, I still have yet to be able to say I've mastered the change. I shot so long instinctively that I still catch myself reverting back to that, many times coming to half or full draw on a target and fixing to pick a spot to shoot when I realize "crap, I didn't guess my yardage", so mid/full draw I throw a quick guess in, set my gap, and shoot. I think I became so comfortable shooting instinctive so long that once I feel comfortable on a range, I begin to revert back to my old shooting habits and forget about judging my yardages, especially if the targets are closer. Since implementing a gap method and going through Tom Clum's shooting course late last summer, my scores have on 3D courses have been higher on more consistent basis so all-in-all it is slowly coming together.

Then comes along this season and about a month ago I began to creep down the string and play with a fixed crawl. Knowing successes of folks such as Tim King among others using the method, I figured it had to be good or they wouldn't use it. So, after consulting with Tim and playing with the method, I completely understand why it would be used. My reason for giving it a try was simple, I wanted to decrease the amount of thinking involved in the moment of truth in hunting situations, just put the point where I want to hit and let it fly. I've got a nock set about 5/8" below my arrow nock and have it set so that when I have my tab at the bottom of the nock, I'm dead on at 17, top of same nock, dead on at 21, half way between that nock and my arrow nock I'm dead on at 26 and if I slide my tab all the way up the serving to my arrow nock, I'm dead on at 35. Almost feels like I'm shooting with sights at times and I've been amazed at how well it works. Really looking forward to this deer season to see how it plays out in the field.
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Old 09-29-2020, 01:12 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MedicineMan7 View Post
1.) 3 UNDER

2.) 3D-GAP
Hunting: newly transitioning to fixed crawl

3.) Lots of changes in my shooting the last few years. I transitioned from shooting a glove, split fingered, and 100% instinctive to shooting a tab, 3 under and gapping a little over 2 years ago. Although I feel my consistency and accuracy increased with those changes, I still have yet to be able to say I've mastered the change. I shot so long instinctively that I still catch myself reverting back to that, many times coming to half or full draw on a target and fixing to pick a spot to shoot when I realize "crap, I didn't guess my yardage", so mid/full draw I throw a quick guess in, set my gap, and shoot. I think I became so comfortable shooting instinctive so long that once I feel comfortable on a range, I begin to revert back to my old shooting habits and forget about judging my yardages, especially if the targets are closer. Since implementing a gap method and going through Tom Clum's shooting course late last summer, my scores have on 3D courses have been higher on more consistent basis so all-in-all it is slowly coming together.

Then comes along this season and about a month ago I began to creep down the string and play with a fixed crawl. Knowing successes of folks such as Tim King among others using the method, I figured it had to be good or they wouldn't use it. So, after consulting with Tim and playing with the method, I completely understand why it would be used. My reason for giving it a try was simple, I wanted to decrease the amount of thinking involved in the moment of truth in hunting situations, just put the point where I want to hit and let it fly. I've got a nock set about 5/8" below my arrow nock and have it set so that when I have my tab at the bottom of the nock, I'm dead on at 17, top of same nock, dead on at 21, half way between that nock and my arrow nock I'm dead on at 26 and if I slide my tab all the way up the serving to my arrow nock, I'm dead on at 35. Almost feels like I'm shooting with sights at times and I've been amazed at how well it works. Really looking forward to this deer season to see how it plays out in the field.
So does that influence your arrow length you shoot? If so does the difference in field point vs broadhead length mess with that?

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Old 09-30-2020, 02:58 PM   #23
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So does that influence your arrow length you shoot? If so does the difference in field point vs broadhead length mess with that?

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No noticeable change/difference at this point. I aim/look off of the end of the arrow (actually insert) so the point length has no effect on where I hold. I actually have been shooting my broadheads as good, if not better then my field points and the only conclusion I can come up with to justify an answer to that is I can see the back of the broadhead better then my fieldpoints because the ferrule is slightly bigger then the shaft, and they are all brighter colored then my arrow, therefore I can see the intersection a bit better then if I have a field point on. I've shot 4 different broadheads and all hit where they were supposed to out to 30 yards.
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Old 09-30-2020, 03:06 PM   #24
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Thank you. The devil is in the details.

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Old 09-30-2020, 04:44 PM   #25
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Just got back into traditional after a few years. In the past I was split but now have moved to three under. Much easier on these old fingers and feels more natural. Right now I'm aiming instinctive. But going to try gap and fixed crawl after I can get my form back.
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Old 09-30-2020, 08:59 PM   #26
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I recently swallowed my pride and started shooting gap.
Reason being is I have several stands set up with known distances to trails and I practice those shots all the time. I was struggling with consistency pretty bad so I figured I’d try to learn the gap for those known distances. If I do everything right and not revert back to trying to shoot instinctive I’m pretty dang deadly! Just hope in the moment of truth I remember to gap! Lol
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Old 09-30-2020, 10:09 PM   #27
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I started as a kid shooting 3 under instictive because I read an article in Bow and Arrow magazine that it was called the "Apache Method". What kid doesn't want to shoot like the Apaches? I shot that way for probably 20+ years with great success and no problems. Then one day I pulled back and couldn't let go of the arrow. The sight picture never got right, nor did it ever again. I just totally lost the instinctive sight picture to tell me it was right to let go. I shot a compound in NFAA field archery and had a gap system worked out for all the different ranges involved and feel like that had some thing to do with it. I worked out my gaps for my Wing C2 recurve that I hunted with and life was good again and I've never changed any thing again.

As in the sticky on gap shooting, I'm not point on except at 32 yards. I'm a foot under up close and a foot high at 40. I'm only dealing with 24" to be on. Under 32 and the point is under the target, over 32, the point is above. I don't think about measurements in where the point is, it just goes there, dare I say it, instinctively. I still never take my concentration off of what I'm shooting at.
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Old 10-02-2020, 09:13 AM   #28
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My release changes with different bows. I flemish loose on my string follow longbow and have to shoot instinctive to see around the riser with both eyes at shorter distances. With my Blueridge S/R I shoot 3 under gapish.

I just recently started to actually be able to gap shoot (3 under) since I changed my anchor finger to my middle finger at canine teeth (versus pointer finger anchored at canine) and moved up my face to bring the arrow closer to my sight line. I find that I have to close/wink my left eye to focus focusing with my right eye and alignment. I have yardage tape marks on my Blueridge Longbow riser for quicker target and proper elevation acquisition.

I have also found that with my short 27 3/4” hunting arrows Im using I cant use the arrow point for gapping accurately and consistently like I can with longer arrows...except at 30 yds...which with my short arrows the tip is just below point on.

I have found my accuracy is more consistent when I focus on the tip and the target is blurry...very similar if not the same as using iron sights on a rifle. My current short hunting arrows dont allow for the extra inches of aiming point to extend my sight radius...so I use the shaft for windage and riser marks for elevation.

Reading aiming, anchors and form posts on TBH (like this thread) and reading various archery books has helped to give me options that I wouldve not considered.

Have a great day and good luck tomorrow Gary.

God bless!
Byron
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Old 10-02-2020, 09:18 AM   #29
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My release changes with different bows. I flemish loose on my string follow longbow and have to shoot instinctive to see around the riser with both eyes at shorter distances. With my Blueridge S/R I shoot 3 under gapish.

I just recently started to actually be able to gap shoot (3 under) since I changed my anchor finger to my middle finger at canine teeth (versus pointer finger anchored at canine) and moved up my face to bring the arrow closer to my sight line. I find that I have to close/wink my left eye to focus focusing with my right eye and alignment. I have yardage tape marks on my Blueridge Longbow riser for quicker target and proper elevation acquisition.

I have also found that with my short 27 3/4Ē hunting arrows Im using I cant use the arrow point for gapping accurately and consistently like I can with longer arrows...except at 30 yds...which with my short arrows the tip is just below point on.

I have found my accuracy is more consistent when I focus on the tip and the target is blurry...very similar if not the same as using iron sights on a rifle. My current short hunting arrows dont allow for the extra inches of aiming point to extend my sight radius...so I use the shaft for windage and riser marks for elevation.

Reading aiming, anchors and form posts on TBH (like this thread) and reading various archery books has helped to give me options that I wouldve not considered.

Have a great day and good luck tomorrow Gary.

God bless!
Byron
Interesting that you don't set elevation with your tip, but you focus on it at full draw... I shoot best when I get soft vision overall. Not that anything is out of focus, but I am not particularly keyed in on any one aspect of the sight picture. This only happens when I'm really focused on pulling through whatever psycho trigger or clicker I'm currently shooting with.
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Old 10-02-2020, 02:10 PM   #30
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What do you shoot?
1. Three under or split?
2. Aiming system and which one? (Fixed crawl, gap etc)
3. Has this changed for you over the years and if so why and how long to master the change?

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1. Split with an American Leathers Glove

2. Instinctive/Howard Hill

3. I have shot split and 3 under with tabs and gloves in the past but am now fully committing to Howard Hill style. I definitely have not mastered the change.
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Old 10-02-2020, 06:27 PM   #31
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I appreciate the replies. If I survive hunting season I think I'll pick up a low poundage recurve in the spring and seriously work on some things.
I'm having some work done on my neck this month to hopefully give me little better range of movement as well as reduce the discomfort. If it does I will try a different anchor point or two and maybe gapping.
I'm not dissatisfied with what I'm doing but just wondering if maybe I could be better at something different or at least have another arrow in my quiver so to speak to use as a situation may dictate.
Y'all have a rewarding hunting season and don't forget to post pics.

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Old 10-02-2020, 08:23 PM   #32
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3 under.

Sight picture relative to known or guestimated distance (dont look at my arrow).

I am a conscious analytical aimer. I don't have depth perception. I focus on the spot once I am "locked in" as a way to relax for the follow thru... and not as a way to let my subconsious take over.

I am a hack at best... but I wouldn't change the way I shoot. I find that success more or less comes with spending time shooting your bow and being happy.
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Old 10-02-2020, 09:00 PM   #33
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It's hard to change when you are having success but every now and then I feel like everyone else has a better grasp on it than I do.

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Old 10-03-2020, 12:19 PM   #34
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3 under fixed crawl. My point-on is 20 yards. So i gap shoot with the fixed crawl accordingly if the shot is less than 20 or over 20.

I started out trying to shoot instinctive for the first year and a half. I never could get consistent. I could do fairly well after a few practice shots. The problem is that in the woods, it's the 1st shot that counts.

My shooting has improved drastically since going to the fixed crawl. I don't see myself ever shooting instinctive again.
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Old 10-03-2020, 01:17 PM   #35
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Interesting that you don't set elevation with your tip, but you focus on it at full draw... I shoot best when I get soft vision overall. Not that anything is out of focus, but I am not particularly keyed in on any one aspect of the sight picture. This only happens when I'm really focused on pulling through whatever psycho trigger or clicker I'm currently shooting with.
Once I retune to longer arrows...Ill make myself adjust to point gap elevation for all distances. I just cant gap less than 30 yards with current arrows...too much wiggle room and not enough sight radius for a good visible front sight blade/point. I think a good arrow setup with 29” of arrow shaft or more will be great to achieve my point gap goal.

My current 27 3/4” arrow setup hasty elevation is mapped out as follows:
10 yards is 15 yard riser tape mark is at deer belly. 15 yd mark is 15 yards. 15 yard tape mark at top of deer back is 20 yds. 15 yd mark a smidge above spine, 4-6” higher, is 25 yards. 30 yds is point under. Anything over 30 yards aint happening...until I venture to point-on somewhere between 35-40yds.

No targets presented themselves this morning.

Gary I hope you get your range of motion back and quit hurting. Good luck on the procedures.
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Old 10-04-2020, 06:18 PM   #36
DRT
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Thanx. Unfortunately the procedure is pretty routine for me. Third time around. I just waited a long time in between this time but when it started to affect my shooting I said "time to go".

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Old 10-04-2020, 10:29 PM   #37
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I suppose I should update this. I picked up a little bit of string walking last week while practicing shooting out of a tree stand. I don't crawl for most ranges, but inside of 13 yards I just have to aim too low for my liking, so I drop my hand down the string a bit now.

So now I'm a 3 under, riser gap shooter, who string walks on occasion.
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Old 10-04-2020, 10:31 PM   #38
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That tells me you can improvise, adapt and overcome.

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Old 06-18-2022, 07:52 AM   #39
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Dug up this old one.
I recently switched to 3 under and am using a gap to shoot. It cost me an inch of draw length and my bow is louder. Mostly with the recurve limbs. I had to move my nock point up an it even affected my brace heights some. Took working through multiple anchor points to get to where I am now but I'm liking where this one is as it gives me better alignment and back tension is easier.
It gained me real accuracy out to twenty five yards. I'm still working on the longer distance thing. Probably will be a face walking solution but for now I need to focus on hunting season and have all my set ups nailed down well in advance of September 1st. And I need to write down the related info for each bow because it's different for each bow and arrow set up.
But even at hunting range it's made an incredible difference in the confidence in which I shoot. Couple that with the tips Joel Turner gave me and I have a more controlled shot.
Didn't think I ever would but man I'm glad I did.

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Old 06-19-2022, 12:00 AM   #40
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That tells me you can improvise, adapt and overcome.

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Oorah.
Keep on keepin on.
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Old 06-19-2022, 10:25 PM   #41
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3under gap for me Iím trying to shoot a league that shoots from 60,50 and 40 itís not going good for me
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Old 06-19-2022, 10:30 PM   #42
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3under gap for me Iím trying to shoot a league that shoots from 60,50 and 40 itís not going good for me

900 Round??? Thatís tough with a read bow with no sights!

Bisch


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Old 06-20-2022, 08:39 AM   #43
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Quote:
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3under gap for me Iím trying to shoot a league that shoots from 60,50 and 40 itís not going good for me
That's some long shots. I know my gaps out to about 50, and shoot pretty decent out to 30. But 40-50-60 is a whole different game for me still.
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Old 06-20-2022, 03:51 PM   #44
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I went to an ASA shoot last Saturday, and I'll be the first to admit I had too many things on my mind at one time. At home I've been working on a slightly different bow hand position, a change to anchor, and a more relaxed release. Usually one at a time, and at close distances. The ASA shoot had us shooting out to 30, with about 14 of 30 targets between 24-30 yards. Not my strongest distances, and after some inner thinking back and forth, I opted to shoot the way I was comfortable with and put more work in at home on the new stuff. Common sense, but sometimes the ego has to be knocked down a peg or two before my common sense takes hold.
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Old 06-24-2022, 09:23 AM   #45
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I switched to string walking about 3 months ago. At first wasn't grouping well. But now shooting really well. Took some getting use too.
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Old 06-24-2022, 03:25 PM   #46
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That's true. I went into the Bob Lee shoot having not shot my recurve limbs 3 under and gapping with wood or carbon. Was adjusting nock points and guessing a lot for those two rounds and finally got close towards the end of them.

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