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Old 02-02-2021, 10:35 AM   #1
wytex
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Default Changes to NR licenses in NM

Some interesting reading here for those that hunt NM.
Looks like they want to do away with outfitter set asides for drawing NR licenses.

You'll have to go down into pages 120ish and 237 to read the text.

https://www.nmlegis.gov/Sessions/21%...ate/SB0312.pdf


Writing is on the wall folks, residents all over the west want a bigger share of their states licenses.
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Old 02-02-2021, 10:44 AM   #2
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Some interesting reading here for those that hunt NM.
Looks like they want to do away with outfitter set asides for drawing NR licenses.

You'll have to go down into pages 120ish and 237 to read the text.

https://www.nmlegis.gov/Sessions/21%...ate/SB0312.pdf


Writing is on the wall folks, residents all over the west want a bigger share of their states licenses.
I get both sides of the argument but all these states are just shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to stimulating local economies and wildlife funding.
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Old 02-02-2021, 10:49 AM   #3
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Some interesting reading here for those that hunt NM.
Looks like they want to do away with outfitter set asides for drawing NR licenses.

You'll have to go down into pages 120ish and 237 to read the text.

https://www.nmlegis.gov/Sessions/21%...ate/SB0312.pdf


Writing is on the wall folks, residents all over the west want a bigger share of their states licenses.
Guide, outfitter and landowner welfare has been a major problem that has needed to be addressed for a long time now.
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Old 02-02-2021, 10:53 AM   #4
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Looks like it will just be 90% to residents and 10% to NR (up from 6%). and take away the outfitter pool (residents can draw from this also). I'm glad their getting rid of the outfitter pool, but the selfish side of me wishes NR would get more, but I get it.
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Old 02-02-2021, 10:55 AM   #5
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Technically, its better for a NR DIY hunter than today where you only get 6% of hunt code and no fractional tags. Ie if there arent 17 tags for a hunt code, a NR can not draw that tag. Residents are already getting more than 84% allotment of total species tags due to that rule.

Im glad to see a state standing up to the outfitters (ie the opposite of Montana). Its still BS when considering the amount of federal public lands being used across the West for local hunters. But wildlife is managed at the state level who protect their constituents. I feel like at some point folks will say why am I sending my federal tax dollars to manage this land? Why doesnt the state start paying for it? But law of supply and demand means there's always enough NRs willing to apply and pay for the tag.
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Old 02-02-2021, 11:03 AM   #6
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Im glad to see a state standing up to the outfitters (ie the opposite of Montana). Its still BS when considering the amount of federal public lands being used across the West for local hunters. But wildlife is managed at the state level who protect their constituents. I feel like at some point folks will say why am I sending my federal tax dollars to manage this land? Why doesnt the state start paying for it? But law of supply and demand means there's always enough NRs willing to apply and pay for the tag.
Very true, But those federal lands are not there for the purpose of big game hunting. You can still go out an hike, backpack, fish, grouse/small game, hunt, scout, along with countless other recreational and commercial interests.
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Old 02-02-2021, 11:20 AM   #7
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Guide, outfitter and landowner welfare has been a major problem that has needed to be addressed for a long time now.
At same time in NM, those unit wide tags open up a lot of access to private and public blocked by that private. Catch 20/20

Last edited by Texans42; 02-02-2021 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 02-02-2021, 11:39 AM   #8
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I get both sides of the argument but all these states are just shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to stimulating local economies and wildlife funding.
I feel like there will be a point that NRs will say too much, in fees and tag cuts, but it's not near there yet. Apps are way up and as for local economies. we have plenty of tourists and non hunting visitors. They contribute millions to our county.
http://myhits106.com/2019/05/08/incr...albany-county/

Wildlife funding could very well become an issue but only when NR apps and fees drop.
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Old 02-02-2021, 12:45 PM   #9
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This would be huge.
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Old 02-02-2021, 12:51 PM   #10
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Looks like it will just be 90% to residents and 10% to NR (up from 6%). and take away the outfitter pool (residents can draw from this also). I'm glad their getting rid of the outfitter pool, but the selfish side of me wishes NR would get more, but I get it.
Iím in this boat...
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Old 02-02-2021, 12:54 PM   #11
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Looks like it will just be 90% to residents and 10% to NR (up from 6%). and take away the outfitter pool (residents can draw from this also). I'm glad their getting rid of the outfitter pool, but the selfish side of me wishes NR would get more, but I get it.
It's an additional screwing for NR. Especially if they also do away with Unit wide tags.

You may think it's going up to 10%, but you are losing 4-5% what was essentially NR tags (16% =NR TAGS)to this residents. You will have also 1000’s of more applications in the NR POOL that was in the outfitter pool. Odds will go way down.

Residents to outfitter pool was insignificant, you have better odds 99% in the res pool

Last edited by Texans42; 02-02-2021 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 02-02-2021, 01:17 PM   #12
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It's an additional screwing for NR. Especially if they also do away with Unit wide tags.

You may think it's going up to 10%, but you are losing 4-5% what was essentially NR tags (16% =NR TAGS)to this residents. You will have also 1000ís of more applications in the NR POOL that was in the outfitter pool. Odds will go way down.

Residents to outfitter pool was insignificant, you have better odds 99% in the res pool
I never said NR weren't getting screwed. Just saying what would change. It would definitely lower odds of being drawn. I wish I could draw NM more but if I was a resident who couldn't draw my home state I would be ****** too. As someone said earlier states are responsible for managing wildlife within their borders for the trust and benefit of their resident. We are fortunate we can hunt as NRs.

I wish they would limit unit wide LO tags and put limits on who landowners can sell too. Then put more of those tags back in the main pool.

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Old 02-02-2021, 01:29 PM   #13
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The unit wide tags are limited. They are given to smaller LO and it opens their land to general public.

Some of those tags unlock a lot of public access. There is more Greater good to hunters then just 4-5 bull tags per unit that will most likely go to residents anyway
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Old 02-02-2021, 01:54 PM   #14
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The unit wide tags are limited. They are given to smaller LO and it opens their land to general public.

Some of those tags unlock a lot of public access. There is more Greater good to hunters then just 4-5 bull tags per unit that will most likely go to residents anyway

Not necessarily just small LOís get unit wide tags.

For folks that donít want to pay an outfitter, doing away with the outfitter pool is huge. The state will make more money off of applications, and it could honestly help outfitters in the grand scheme of things. More tags draw by NR means more potential clients.


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Old 02-02-2021, 02:19 PM   #15
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Very true, But those federal lands are not there for the purpose of big game hunting. You can still go out an hike, backpack, fish, grouse/small game, hunt, scout, along with countless other recreational and commercial interests.
Which is why all those people should be paying an extra tax, like us hunters do on hunting related items, to enjoy their hobbies. It's BS that we pay into it, yet they reap the rewards.

Then again, that's how the whole federal government is set up. So maybe it's normal.
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Old 02-02-2021, 02:20 PM   #16
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Very true, But those federal lands are not there for the purpose of big game hunting. You can still go out an hike, backpack, fish, grouse/small game, hunt, scout, along with countless other recreational and commercial interests.
I agree and understand that point. Its when certain activities are artificially restricted that it becomes an issue. Wilderness use in Wyoming is a perfect example.
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Old 02-02-2021, 02:35 PM   #17
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I never said NR weren't getting screwed. Just saying what would change. It would definitely lower odds of being drawn. I wish I could draw NM more but if I was a resident who couldn't draw my home state I would be ****** too. As someone said earlier states are responsible for managing wildlife within their borders for the trust and benefit of their resident. We are fortunate we can hunt as NRs.

I wish they would limit unit wide LO tags and put limits on who landowners can sell too. Then put more of those tags back in the main pool.

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Its all arbitrary boundaries on who controls what and is inconsistent at that. Which just proves its a matter of incentives and controls. At the end of the day, as a US resident paying for federal lands Id like more access to hunt those lands, beyond just hiking and fishing. Nothing other than the way its always been done keeps the land in federal hands and wildlife in state hands (expect when the government wants to intervene like with grizz and wolf). Under the current system, residents are of course always incentivized to keep NRs out or make them pay much higher fees or use outfitters. That doesn't mean it has to stay that way. For instance why is a NR from a different state treated the same as a non US citizen for these states? I think Alaska is the only one to even differentiate non US citizens.

I will say the funniest is when a R complains about a crowded trailhead and wants to cut NR tag numbers. It's still the same total amount of tags being issued!
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Old 02-02-2021, 02:36 PM   #18
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It's an additional screwing for NR. Especially if they also do away with Unit wide tags.

You may think it's going up to 10%, but you are losing 4-5% what was essentially NR tags (16% =NR TAGS)to this residents. You will have also 1000ís of more applications in the NR POOL that was in the outfitter pool. Odds will go way down.

Residents to outfitter pool was insignificant, you have better odds 99% in the res pool
Fair point but I doubt it will be one for one. Im sure some folks wont go unless its outfitted. May just further drive up the LO tag fees.
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Old 02-02-2021, 02:48 PM   #19
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Not necessarily just small LOís get unit wide tags.

For folks that donít want to pay an outfitter, doing away with the outfitter pool is huge. The state will make more money off of applications, and it could honestly help outfitters in the grand scheme of things. More tags draw by NR means more potential clients.


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ďMostĒ the bigger ranches in essential units normally do ranch only tags because they get way more tags.


And no it won't help outfitters or NR. You are losing 6% of tags right off the bat to the resident pool. And if the cancel E plus program that even more tags to resident pool.

Your application costs are the same in Outfitter pool As they would be if you applied in Res or NR respectively. I don't for see a huge jump NR applicantions because outfitter pool went away. Grand scheme it's more applications now for less tags.
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Old 02-02-2021, 03:02 PM   #20
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Fair point but I doubt it will be one for one. Im sure some folks wont go unless its outfitted. May just further drive up the LO tag fees.
They arent doing away with outfitters, just a dedicated pool. Same people that put in the outfitter pool aren't going away. They will just move to NR Pool and now compete against NR. When they draw, they will still hire an outfitter, it's no different other then don't need a signed outfitter contract to apply.

Essentially outfitter pool is now completing against NR Pool for same number of tags that use to be in outfitter pool.

NR Pool as seen in this thread thinks they gained tags so better odds, but what they really gained was an exponential number of applications


It's a huge loose loose for NR’s, they just lost tags and gain exponential application competition
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Old 02-02-2021, 03:21 PM   #21
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I am guessing this proposal would(if passed) not come into play until next year at the earliest?
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Old 02-02-2021, 03:32 PM   #22
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I believe it says April 1, 2022 it would take affect.
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Old 02-02-2021, 04:59 PM   #23
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guide, outfitter and landowner welfare has been a major problem that has needed to be addressed for a long time now.
y u p
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Old 02-02-2021, 08:23 PM   #24
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ďMostĒ the bigger ranches in essential units normally do ranch only tags because they get way more tags.


And no it won't help outfitters or NR. You are losing 6% of tags right off the bat to the resident pool. And if the cancel E plus program that even more tags to resident pool.

Your application costs are the same in Outfitter pool As they would be if you applied in Res or NR respectively. I don't for see a huge jump NR applicantions because outfitter pool went away. Grand scheme it's more applications now for less tags.

Iíll bet a dollar to a doughnut NR apps go up a decent amount.

And I know several large ranches in 16a, 16c, 13, etc that get UW tags.

If they cancel the Eplus, those extra tags go into the tag pool( minus cow tags) which are going to increase the number of tags in both pools.

This outfitter welfare has needed to go for some time.


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Old 02-02-2021, 08:46 PM   #25
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I’ll bet a dollar to a doughnut NR apps go up a decent amount.

And I know several large ranches in 16a, 16c, 13, etc that get UW tags.

If they cancel the Eplus, those extra tags go into the tag pool( minus cow tags) which are going to increase the number of tags in both pools.

This outfitter welfare has needed to go for some time.


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I know several large ranches too that go unit wide, but they are micro percentage of the ranches around the state. In this case it's better for large ranches for us to go unit wide because it opens them up to the public. For ever 10 tags you put back into the pool. It's only one non-resident going in. Where as before 9/10 of those tags where being bought by non-residents. Also you are about to see a huge number of deperdation tags, if you can't buy landowner tolerance you get depredation tags. The Sec Of Agriculture will outrule NMFG on depredation

NR tags application may up tick some because some may think it's increased odds but it's not. It's significantly decreased odds right of the bat.

Y'all can project at LO and outfitters all you want, end of the day if NM passes these, NM will Significantly decrease over all non-resident opportunity by a large percentage.

Last edited by Texans42; 02-02-2021 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 02-02-2021, 09:00 PM   #26
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Bad news
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Old 02-02-2021, 09:10 PM   #27
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When they lowered the NR quota years ago most I know said screw it and they go hunting anyway, yeah its poaching but when the states laws become ludicrously slanted against NR your going to get this, they don't have the manpower to enforce these rules anyway. IMO if NM had more reasonable big game laws they would have less poaching.
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Old 02-02-2021, 09:39 PM   #28
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I've got a friend that lives in Northern NM. He's in a decent elk unit but poor for deer. I put in for a deer tag four or five years ago- I think there were 6 non-resident applicants for 5 tags. There were 34 non-resident applicants in 2020. Demand for non-resident tags continues to climb.

Unit 34 Elk rifle had 955 non-res apps for 9 tags (6% of 150). The outfitter pool had 577 (I don't have the breakdown of how many res vrs non-res). With the 10% proposal, tag allocation would increase to 15, but it not likely to improve draw odds if the folks from the outfitter pool move over.
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Old 02-02-2021, 10:04 PM   #29
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Man this seems incredibly complicated. I would love to hunt out west but trying to navigate this hurts my head.
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Old 02-02-2021, 10:13 PM   #30
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Man this seems incredibly complicated. I would love to hunt out west but trying to navigate this hurts my head.

Same. We just went landowner tags with an outfitter for this reason.
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Old 02-02-2021, 10:14 PM   #31
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My neighbor called me a few nights ago asking who NM voted for in the election. Biden. He said he asked because they were showing clips on the news of NM complaining about the severe job loss thatís going to come with Bidenís new orders.

Sounds like they just want to make decisions that will ultimately hurt them overall. When theyíre jobless and the NR tourist money dries up theyíll be begging for folks to come spend their money there.
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Old 02-02-2021, 10:16 PM   #32
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Default Changes to NR licenses in NM

The depredation tags would be on deeded ground only, which there isnít a lot of in elk country. Which means there isnít much in the way of ag ground in elk country either. Majority of water is on pubic ground too, just a little bit of private pasture here and there in the canyon bottoms. Ranchers arenít going to start slaughtering elk by the hundreds all of a sudden.

Which, by the way, EPlus was just overhauled a couple years ago. I donít think thereís any mention of it in this bill, unless I missed it?

I donít know why Iím wasting my thumb muscles on this one. As a previous resident of NM, with friends who are/were outfitters there, I can tell you youíre sharing the minorities view on this one.


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Old 02-02-2021, 10:16 PM   #33
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No matter what they change, NM residents will still blame Texans for drawing all the tags.
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Old 02-02-2021, 10:19 PM   #34
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No matter what they change, NM residents will still blame Texans for drawing all the tags.

Thatís the dang truth.


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Old 02-03-2021, 05:38 PM   #35
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2020 odds for rifle bull in unit 34 were: 0.94% NR, 2.62% Guided, and 2.05% Resident
That's dividing drawn hunters by all applicants (Totaling 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choices)

The proposed changes would result in: 0.98% NR and 2.20% Resident. (That's assuming the entire guided pool moves to the NR draw.

Take away all NR tags and the resident odds go to a whopping 2.44% based on 2020 numbers.

I think the slightly larger pool for NR will open more hunts for group applications. There's a lot of units that only have enough quota for 1 NR applicant to draw.

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Old 02-03-2021, 06:34 PM   #36
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2020 odds for rifle bull in unit 34 were: 0.94% NR, 2.62% Guided, and 2.05% Resident
That's dividing drawn hunters by all applicants (Totaling 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choices)

The proposed changes would result in: 0.98% NR and 2.20% Resident. (That's assuming the entire guided pool moves to the NR draw.

Take away all NR tags and the resident odds go to a whopping 2.44% based on 2020 numbers.

I think the slightly larger pool for NR will open more hunts for group applications. There's a lot of units that only have enough quota for 1 NR applicant to draw.
You can pull NR 1st and 2 archery and odds goes down when you combine applications.
The guide pool applications will move to NR because they are All NR, there is no advantage for a res to go Into outfitter pool.

Last edited by Texans42; 02-03-2021 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 02-03-2021, 10:31 PM   #37
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Just for a reference point. 6,134 Residents applied for 126 tags Unit 34 rifle. Iíd be really upset with the whole situation if I was a resident.


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Old 02-04-2021, 10:27 AM   #38
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2020 odds for rifle bull in unit 34 were: 0.94% NR, 2.62% Guided, and 2.05% Resident
That's dividing drawn hunters by all applicants (Totaling 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choices)

The proposed changes would result in: 0.98% NR and 2.20% Resident. (That's assuming the entire guided pool moves to the NR draw.

Take away all NR tags and the resident odds go to a whopping 2.44% based on 2020 numbers.

I think the slightly larger pool for NR will open more hunts for group applications. There's a lot of units that only have enough quota for 1 NR applicant to draw.
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You can pull NR 1st and 2 archery and odds goes down when you combine applications.
The guide pool applications will move to NR because they are All NR, there is no advantage for a res to go Into outfitter pool.
>>>>
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Man this seems incredibly complicated. I would love to hunt out west but trying to navigate this hurts my head.
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Old 02-04-2021, 11:06 AM   #39
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No matter what they change, NM residents will still blame Texans for drawing all the tags.
Unfortunately when non residents started paying bribes to outfitters for better odds the system went to trash for everyone. Blame the outfitters, guides and landowners for buying lobbyists to get this welfare fraud put into place.
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Old 02-04-2021, 11:14 AM   #40
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Unfortunately when non residents started paying bribes to outfitters for better odds the system went to trash for everyone. Blame the outfitters, guides and landowners for buying lobbyists to get this welfare fraud put into place.
I think a 90/10 split would give a slight benefit to resident and nonresident applicants.

What are they proposing to do with landowner elk tags? Is it something like the old pronghorn draw where you get to hunt public and participating private property if drawn?
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Old 02-04-2021, 11:25 AM   #41
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I think a 90/10 split would give a slight benefit to resident and nonresident applicants.

What are they proposing to do with landowner elk tags? Is it something like the old pronghorn draw where you get to hunt public and participating private property if drawn?
Be cool if they could do 15% or so to the NR pool.

Iím sure the lobby for those groups would like to keep the system in place that continues to allow them the ability exploit the system for maximum benefit.
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Old 02-04-2021, 01:06 PM   #42
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I think an 85/15 split would be great. And I know a lot of residents that think the same. One thing I really wish would happen would be to do away with the stupid rule about cow tags only going to residents in the draw(this sky rocketed the price of LO cow tags and made it dang hard to draw as a resident) and the taking the youth encouragement hunts away and turning them into whatever they are now.
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Old 02-04-2021, 02:23 PM   #43
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Be cool if they could do 15% or so to the NR pool.

Iím sure the lobby for those groups would like to keep the system in place that continues to allow them the ability exploit the system for maximum benefit.
Unit wide tags going back into the draw would benefit everyone, but I don't see that happening.
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Old 02-04-2021, 03:12 PM   #44
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Unit wide tags going back into the draw would benefit everyone, but I don't see that happening.

Thatís been NMWFís argument/push for awhile now.


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Old 02-04-2021, 03:12 PM   #45
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Unit wide tags going back into the draw would benefit everyone, but I don't see that happening.
No it would only benefit Res. 99% of the time. When you break down the UW Tags #, then put into a season, they are below 10 season tags for most units. NR will never see those tags in draw. At least now they have an option.

http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/down...r-List-PMZ.pdf

If NM would of combined NR and outfitter pool tags I could see a big benefit to NRís because then we would of seen whole % point draw odd increase.

As it stands NR Opportunity went down by 6%
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Old 02-10-2021, 09:19 AM   #46
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I think an 85/15 split would be great. And I know a lot of residents that think the same. One thing I really wish would happen would be to do away with the stupid rule about cow tags only going to residents in the draw(this sky rocketed the price of LO cow tags and made it dang hard to draw as a resident) and the taking the youth encouragement hunts away and turning them into whatever they are now.
The good ole days when you could get a youth or new hunter out in the field to get theyíre feet wet with elk hunting. You could easily get a cow tag for under 250.00. Since the outfitter welfare program came along you canít hardly touch a cow tag for less than a grand.
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Old 02-10-2021, 09:23 AM   #47
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The good ole days when you could get a youth or new hunter out in the field to get theyíre feet wet with elk hunting. You could easily get a cow tag for under 250.00. Since the outfitter welfare program came along you canít hardly touch a cow tag for less than a grand.
That is crazy for a cow. I would look to Colorado or Wyoming for a cow hunt. Wyoming is a random draw for reduced price cow tags.
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Old 02-10-2021, 09:32 AM   #48
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Like said above, makes my old man head spin.

Bottom line is what, if I want to hunt elk this fall in NM ? Public draw ? Hire an outfitter ? Where are my best odds ?
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Old 02-10-2021, 09:55 AM   #49
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Like said above, makes my old man head spin.

Bottom line is what, if I want to hunt elk this fall in NM ? Public draw ? Hire an outfitter ? Where are my best odds ?
Best way is to fork out big money for private landowner tags from my understanding. Even if you do an outfitter on public you still have to draw.
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Old 02-10-2021, 10:20 AM   #50
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Be cool if they could do 15% or so to the NR pool.

I’m sure the lobby for those groups would like to keep the system in place that continues to allow them the ability exploit the system for maximum benefit.
It used to be 22%, 2011 and prior, we actually drew nonresident 2 times mid 2000's to 2011, and let me tell you those in state guys DID NOT like Texans, we had a few run ins, talk about greed. Its freakin federal land. You can see the trend, at some point it will be 99% new mexico residents and 1% non-residents. Like I said their asinine rules will only increase poaching.

Last edited by SC-001; 02-10-2021 at 10:23 AM.
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