Wolf?

[TxSon1836]

I have never seen a wolf in the wild, so I am not any form of expert, seen many pictures and videos. I have killed a lot of coyotes, that dog in your picture has some long legs for a coyote and the face does not look very coyoteish. Looks like it has lines below it's eyes, never seen lines like those on coyotes. I have seen many variations of coyotes, but they all are obviously coyotes. Bobcats on the other hand, I have seen a lot of variations with them, large variations in size, shape and coloring. Coyotes, the biggest variation I see is coloring, that changes with the time of year, which coat they have on at that point. Even at the same time of year, I have seen coyotes that are more reddish colored, some darker brown, with some very dark areas. Then I have seen some grayish coyotes, A few winters ago, I had a very light gray coyote pop up out of the creek only about 15 yards from me. The coloring on that one had me thinking wolf, but it was obviously coyote size and shape, but very different coloring, never seen one with the coloring of that one, it really stood out in the moon light. There were others with that one, but I could not really pick them out, because they were dark colored and it was at night.
That picture of yours, does not look like any coyote I have ever seen.

i thought the same things about the lines but zooming in i think the dark dark line is a shadow from a tree branch

[.243 WSSM]

HA! Its a Moultrie Cell Cam... The canopy is very thick so it get stuck on night mode a lot. I'm not sure if its a camera issue or a placement issue.

Interesting. My covert mavericks take pink pictures every now and then

[El General]

So, if/when you kill a wolf hybrid, would that be a defense that would stand up in court? Got me pondering hypotheticals now.

The short answer is that hybrids are not wolves and no law is broken. The ESA protects species and subspecies as they are listed.

The long answer is that genetics and genomics have really blurred the definition of a species and scientists are currently grappling with that answer and it may change in the future, so who knows what might happen?

[donpablo]

The short answer is that hybrids are not wolves and no law is broken. The ESA protects species and subspecies as they are listed.

The long answer is that genetics and genomics have really blurred the definition of a species and scientists are currently grappling with that answer and it may change in the future, so who knows what might happen?

So if you shot a "red wolf", the state would have to prove that it was a red wolf to make the violation stick. Since there are no distinct red wolf genes (only gray wolf and coyote) they wouldn't be able to do so. I've always wondered about that for hunters in the Carolinas. I imagine hunting yotes there would be a little nerve racking if you had to worry about shooting a protected canine.

[justletmein]

Looks like a wolf but I think the pink color is really throwing everyone off, wth is wrong with that game cam? If you throw the coloration aside I could see it being a plain old coyote.

[Hunter Dan]

Looks like wolf to me. Some folks also don't believe that Mt Lions run around west texas but I know they are very wrong.

[MRW]

Another vote for wolf. Why not.

[Phillip Fields]

They called them red wolves back in the day before genetic testing. Now that they've done genetic testing they found no distinct red wolf genes. The "red wolves" they tested only had the genes of coyotes and gray wolves. What people believed was a different or sub species of wolf turned out to be nothing more than a hybrid.

That being said, that coyote probably has some (or maybe a lot) of gray wolf in him.

There has been a more detailed study completed since then:

Evaluating the Taxonomic Status of the Mexican Gray Wolf and the Red Wolf (2019)

Conclusions from that study:

"Available evidence suggests that the historical red wolves constituted a taxonomically valid species.

Extant red wolves are distinct from the extant gray wolves and coyotes.

Available evidence is compatible with the hypothesis that extant red wolves trace some of their ancestry to the historical red wolves.

Although additional genomic evidence from historical specimens could change this assessment, evidence available at present supports species status (Canis rufus) for the extant red wolf."

[El General]

So if you shot a "red wolf", the state would have to prove that it was a red wolf to make the violation stick. Since there are no distinct red wolf genes (only gray wolf and coyote) they wouldn't be able to do so. I've always wondered about that for hunters in the Carolinas. I imagine hunting yotes there would be a little nerve racking if you had to worry about shooting a protected canine.

An ESA violation is federal, so it wouldn't be the state prosecuting you. Red wolves are currently an ESA listed species. So, if you killed a red wolf, the fact that new science suggests that it is not a species would be a defense against prosecution. If the feds wanted to arrest and prosecute you, they could do it under the law.

But, I don't think that is something I would want to put in front of a jury based on people's fixation on charismatic megafauna and having to explain the science of mitochondrial DNA, genetics, and genomics to 12 people that can't think of a reason to get out of jury duty.

The poster mentioned above that there were no red wolf genes and that they were a hybrid of coyotes and grey wolves, but I don't know if that is true. I think that is a popular (and probably true) theory. There have only been a small number of red wolves tested and those are from a small population bottleneck.

The bottleneck came when they decided to trap the remaining red wolves in Texas and Louisiana to start a captive breeding program around 1980. They trapped 400 wolves and whittled that down to 14 "pure bred" red wolves. They did not have modern genome sequencing and mapping techniques to make the determination on whether those 14 red wolves were genetically pure red wolves or wolf/coyote hybrids.

If the species was down to 400 total members more or less, they readily interbred with coyotes, and they lived in an area with plenty of coyotes, a logical conclusion is that maybe all the red wolves left at that time had recent coyote ancestry because there weren't enough pure red wolves left?

Or, possibly there weren't ever pure red wolves? Or, perhaps red wolves were a fairly new species, like mule deer, and our current genetic technology doesn't allow us to distinguish between a hybrid and a new species?

The classic definition of the term species and what new genetics and genomics research is telling us is in conflict. Species - a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding. By the classic definition of species, the coyote and grey wolf could be called the same species as they apparently interbreed.

Anyway, I find this all fascinating. At the end of the day, if I saw something that looked like a wolf in Texas, I'd be much more likely to film or photograph than shoot.

[Mountaineer]

Wolf?

Long snout and pointy tall ears = coyote. But let’s say it’s a wolf for fun.


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[Commandbro]

Wolf. Out of curiosity, is there a reason to kill it? Was it killing stock or deer in the area?

Beautiful creatures. Would hate to see you kill it, without reason.

[donpablo]

Thank You

There has been a more detailed study completed since then:

Evaluating the Taxonomic Status of the Mexican Gray Wolf and the Red Wolf (2019)

Conclusions from that study:

"Available evidence suggests that the historical red wolves constituted a taxonomically valid species.

Extant red wolves are distinct from the extant gray wolves and coyotes.

Available evidence is compatible with the hypothesis that extant red wolves trace some of their ancestry to the historical red wolves.

Although additional genomic evidence from historical specimens could change this assessment, evidence available at present supports species status (Canis rufus) for the extant red wolf."

A new twist develops! Can you post a link. Like El General I find this whole debate fascinating. The plot thickens even more if you're fighting impulses to become a conspiracy theorist. Picture a scientist pressured to find new evidence that supports the assertion that what they've been doing in the Carolinas (to save the red wolf) wasn't a complete waste of time and money.

[donpablo]

Surprise

Looks like wolf to me. Some folks also don't believe that Mt Lions run around west texas but I know they are very wrong.

I posted a trail cam pic of a WTX Mountain Lion and was surprised no one tried to refute it.

[Jspradley]

Let's say it was a wolf, what would you gain from shooting it?

Now compare that to what you would be very likely to lose from shooting it and see which list is bigger.

cost/benefit analysis FTW

[SBXT]

Does this help anyone?