How is Ercot to blame?

[Jake]

This has been a good read, I have learned a lot.

I don't know anything about energy, I'm a land guy. I know that I get taxed by the government so they can give subsidies to people to build and put windmills on their land. So as a tax payer, I pay for these windmills. I know that these windmills cost more to build, install and set up on the grid, then they will ever save by generating electricity.
I know for a fact, that if my neighbor puts windmills on his property along my property line, that the value of my land falls by 35% to 60%.
So if I have worked all my life, paid tons of taxes and finally saved enough to buy a ranch. I can then lose up to half of my equity in that ranch so the state can lose money to create energy some of the time.

[BrianL]

I retired in 2017 from working about 20 years in an 800 MW combined cycle power plant. Prior to that I spent 24 years in a ChlorAlkali plant with the last 14 years in power generation, electrical distribution. I learned a few things along the way. Regardless of the fuel source, all power plants in Texas battle heat dissipation in the summer in order to achieve maximum generation. So, we build them pretty much wide open to the elements. Ok, when a severe freeze comes along, it is very difficult to ensure that every transmitter, impulse line, level, pressure, or flow indicator stays fully functional in subzero conditions. In colder climates, these same facilities are normally built inside of buildings that help insulate critical instrumentation and equipment against freezing. As far as I know, whether it is coal fired, natural gas fired, wood fired (yes, wood!), trash fired, or nuclear powered, they all require water for either making steam or heat exchange (cooling water). Y'all all know what is going to happen to those cooling towers, water pumps, valves, fans, etc. when it stays below freezing for long periods of time; they begin to fail. Is TOUGH to operate one of these plants reliably in Texas in subzero conditions for extended amounts of time. They just aren't built to do it. Even newer facilities with great heat tracing and insulation just don't get the maintenance required to keep them 100% functional in ALL conditions. Generally it only takes a few critical transmitters to fail and the whole plant comes off line. I have to believe that we have adequate generation capability during normal conditions but when the weather gets like this all bets are off. It will take a PARADIGM SHIFT in the design, implementation, and maintenance of these facilities to make them viable in every weather situation. I would really like to know the percentage of generators across the state failed to start or tripped off line due to being inadequately prepared for the weather conditions. It doesn't matter if ERCOT called on every generator in the state to come on line if only a handful could respond. As a side note, this is what is termed 'outage season' for most generators. They schedule their major outages (for equipment repair/rebuild) to coincide with cool weather because demand is usually lower and the economic impact to them due to lost revenue is less. There might have been a good number of units unavailable because they were scattered across the slab being rebuilt. At the end of the day I personally don't blame ERCOT. But, this is just my opinion.

Good info [emoji106]

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Smeone]

You dodged my question. I asked you how we can "store" electric reserves. We can't. Especially for a possible once in a century catastopic winter storm that deposited snow on the beaches of Galveston.

C'mon maaaaan! This was a huge calamity of a winter storm that created unprecedented demand on a system that was not designed for the once in a lifetime sustained cold snap.

Again, if our electric bills increased 40-50% so they could buildout a generation system that might be needed once...or twice in our lifetime, we would all be revolting with multiple threads (as we have now) complaining that the idiots in charge are raping us.

you can have large scale batteries and you can have pumped hydro

there is only one location right now in Texas where pumped hydro could work, but it would take infrastructure to do it

the issues with both batteries and pumped hydro are that at some point you have to recharge them and in a multi day event you might not get that chance

I suppose either or both could save you if you have a shore term event at one or two generating plants, but if you are going to rely on them for multiple days you just have a larger disaster when they run out and you cannot recharge them and they you are down just that much more power

it would be very inefficient and costly to have battery or pumped hydro in a large enough amount for a 5 or 6 day demand load

but Texas should be working on both simply for the balance of supply and demand day to day and to work in conjunction with wind and solar and that is really where batteries and pumped hydro work best to come online very rapidly (the fastest available) and to go offline quickly and to balance day to day ups and downs

it is simply not possible to store natural gas at the power station

there is a fuel that can be stored right at the power plant though and that is coal.....that is not exactly the same as actual stored power, but in my opinion that is a much better option than more natural gas to have the same issues in the future on a larger scale

having coal on site does not limit the issue of a poorly built plant that has other issues from cold like freezing cooling lines or instrumentation

but I would rather have more of a fuel that can be stored on site....only needs a large loader or two or some conveyers to feed the plant and that is not in high demand from residential users at the same time power plants need it and thus it does not spike in price and that comes on a train (that generally run better in cold snow and ice) not a highway or pipeline

Texas needs to broaden the sources of fuel for the plants as much or more than they need to harder the plants we have and we need some better storage from the available types (that will pay for itself in day to day demand fluctuation, but that are not for multi day events, but that could help in a very short term emergency)

[cricman]

How is it there are literally thousands of wind turbines operating year round in North Sea Wind Farms (as in extremely formidable Winter weather) but our windmills pooped out in the first real test? Sounds like we bought the wrong model!


Just sayin'!


cricman

[eradicator]

We all are upset with Ercot, but, it seems to me that Ercot simply manages the flow of energy on the grid. When there is a shortage of energy coming into the grid, what choices do they have? I am not trying to deflect criricism from them, but the problem appears to be a shortage of power due to generator plants being compromised because of the unprecidented freezing weather. The coal powered plant closings obviously contributed to the shortage of generated power.

Can someone (Smeone? ) splain what I am missing here? Does Ercot really deserve all the criticism or is it just knee jerk reactions to blame them?

Didn't read the rest of the thread but they are living cushy and cutting corners like every other politician. If that is not the case, then they need to hire better engineers.....

[WItoTX]

ERCOT does not make INVESTMENTS in energy. They own NO energy assets. They manage the flow.

I am not trying to argue with anyone, but I try to be objective in my reasoning. I think most of the blame should be on the power generation utilities who caved to the renewable energy folks and the politians who caved; thus coal powered plants being closed and torn down.

It has been reported that we (Texas) was close to our grid completely failing several times. Fortunately, they were able to keep that from happening by shutting down parts of the grid to save the integrity of the whole system. Not a popular decision with those who have been out of power for an extended time. There is no EASY solution, except we need more reliable power GENERATION . The next question begs...how much are we willing to see our electric bills increase for a backup sytem that may only be needed every 40-100 years? I don't have the answer.

I know you are just trying to get down to the bottom line. I spent the first two years of my career working for a transmission line owner, and I'm not the best at making my point when I know all the in's and out's of how the regulatory process works, sorry about that.. Literally EVERY project a centerpoint, or AEP, or in my case, ATC wants to do to upgrade the system needs to be approved by ERCOT. If ERCOT refuses to give you outages to tie in your new work, there is no point in doing the project.

Look at it this way. The control tower at an airport directs the flow of planes. If too many planes try to land on a runway, it's the control towers fault. Well ERCOT is the control tower. Delta and united would be centerpoint, and the passengers would be us. They regulate how many planes come in and out, and the timing. United, Delta, whoever else just supply the planes..

All that said, in reality, the system is set up such that many, many people weigh in on decisions made. The downfall of this system is that everyone is able to then point fingers at one another. And we had a perfect storm (no pun intended) of events that got us into this position Sunday night.

[SabineHunter]

This has been a good read, I have learned a lot.

I don't know anything about energy, I'm a land guy. I know that I get taxed by the government so they can give subsidies to people to build and put windmills on their land. So as a tax payer, I pay for these windmills. I know that these windmills cost more to build, install and set up on the grid, then they will ever save by generating electricity.
I know for a fact, that if my neighbor puts windmills on his property along my property line, that the value of my land falls by 35% to 60%.
So if I have worked all my life, paid tons of taxes and finally saved enough to buy a ranch. I can then lose up to half of my equity in that ranch so the state can lose money to create energy some of the time.

Great point. I hate Chinese wind mills for many reasons.

[Wits_End]

You dodged my question. I asked you how we can "store" electric reserves. We can't. Especially for a possible once in a century catastopic winter storm that deposited snow on the beaches of Galveston.



C'mon maaaaan! This was a huge calamity of a winter storm that created unprecedented demand on a system that was not designed for the once in a lifetime sustained cold snap.



Again, if our electric bills increased 40-50% so they could buildout a generation system that might be needed once...or twice in our lifetime, we would all be revolting with multiple threads (as we have now) complaining that the idiots in charge are raping us.

"not designed for the once in a lifetime sustained cold snap"

I believe the entire thread is completely missing the most impactful issue. The board and everyone else in charge of power should have known the systems would fail and should have warned the vulnerable masses. They did not, they completely failed.

I'm not mad that I lost power for days, I'm mad that I, nor anyone else, were warned of the expected failures. Several hour rolling blackout is manageable with minimal effort, multi day blackout took hard work. We made it through with very minor impact. Not so for my 85 year old neighbor, he had a waterfall burst over him in his living room with house temps in the 30s. That's inexcusable, prison time is a must for those in charge of oversight.

[Playa]

"not designed for the once in a lifetime sustained cold snap"

I believe the entire thread is completely missing the most impactful issue. The board and everyone else in charge of power should have known the systems would fail and should have warned the vulnerable masses. They did not, they completely failed.

I'm not mad that I lost power for days, I'm mad that I, nor anyone else, were warned of the expected failures. Several hour rolling blackout is manageable with minimal effort, multi day blackout took hard work. We made it through with very minor impact. Not so for my 85 year old neighbor, he had a waterfall burst over him in his living room with house temps in the 30s. That's inexcusable, prison time is a must for those in charge of oversight.

Agreed except that this wasn’t once in a lifetime. We had similar cold in 2011, 1997, 1989, 1983 (twice jabs and again Dec) and 1982. Grid didn’t fail in the earlier scenarios, which were longer and colder. We did t have these grid issues until 2011.

[SmTx]

Exactly...and who is responsible?

Many of us complain about Democratic leadership, but Republicans have been in control of Texas for quite some time.

For the record, I have voted Republican for many years, so don't anybody try to paint me otherwise. I am just pointing out the hypocrisy and useless criticism for a historic weather event that was not planned for, and likely would have been severely criticized by TBH members if our utility bills increased to buildout the backup systems that might never again be needed in our lifetime. We, on TBH, just like to lash out and blame whomever seems convenient at the time without fully understanding the issues.

No pass on this one. You've visited PACE. You know if you have questions you're a libtard!!!!!

[Geezy Rider]

No pass on this one. You've visited PACE. You know if you have questions you're a libtard!!!!!

If you’re serious about that statement then I garontee you don’t know Randy.

[SmTx]

If you’re serious about that statement then I garontee you don’t know Randy.

He wrote that because he knows how quickly folks jump to statements like that. I'm sure he'll read it with the sarcastic intent it was written

[Geezy Rider]

he wrote that because he knows how quickly folks jump to statements like that. I'm sure he'll read it with the sarcastic intent it was written

👍

[Duane]

I’m smarter than most people and I’m gonna prove it right here and now. ERCOT could have avoided all this mess if they would have just evenly distributed volts to errybody. Instead of some folks getting 120 and some getting none, errybody could have been given around 85 volts.

You’re welcome. Now give me some of that ERCOT CEO pay!

[Burnadell]

He wrote that because he knows how quickly folks jump to statements like that. I'm sure he'll read it with the sarcastic intent it was written

Yep. I picked up on what you were laying down!