White settlement Church shooting

[Skinny]

Honestly, as point blank as the guys were, would tackling the perp been a better option than drawing on him? No way can I put myself in their shoes, neither could any of us, but seems like that could have kept him from drawing his shotgun and taking shots.

That crossed my mind too. Especially after watching the interview with the hero. They were all very suspicious of this guy in a long coat, fake beard, wig, toboggan, hand hidden inside coat, etc. I’m not judging anyone, but it seems some sort of confrontation should have occurred before it got to the point it did.

[Michael]

Honestly, as point blank as the guys were, would tackling the perp been a better option than drawing on him? No way can I put myself in their shoes, neither could any of us, but seems like that could have kept him from drawing his shotgun and taking shots.

The perp said something to one of the deacons. If, at that moment, the deacon had recognized the perp had a gun, then closing that distance would have been an option. John often refers to the "5D's + 1" in that situation (control Distance (the +1), deflect, dominate, distract, disarm, disable.)

Unfortunately, after drawing the perp backed up and created separation. It appears he maybe had to pump a shell into the chamber. The second guy (first victim) would not have had a chance to close the distance.

[Gherkin05]

That crossed my mind too. Especially after watching the interview with the hero. They were all very suspicious of this guy in a long coat, fake beard, wig, toboggan, hand hidden inside coat, etc. I’m not judging anyone, but it seems some sort of confrontation should have occurred before it got to the point it did.

We talk about this as a part of the security program at my church. As a church we want to help those in need, often people in need appearing like street panhandles, etc. Folks need to be diligent and not let their guard down when dealing with folks looking out-of-place at church.

I hate that those two men died but they were committed to protecting their congregation. Terrible situation but a fine shot finalized the issue.

Trust your gut, stay frosty.

[bboswell]

The perp said something to one of the deacons. If, at that moment, the deacon had recognized the perp had a gun, then closing that distance would have been an option. John often refers to the "5D's + 1" in that situation (control Distance (the +1), deflect, dominate, distract, disarm, disable.)



Unfortunately, after drawing the perp backed up and created separation. It appears he maybe had to pump a shell into the chamber. The second guy (first victim) would not have had a chance to close the distance.

Yep in hind sight first victim handled it wrong, I’m not gonna judge because I have never been there but had he charged instead of trying to draw while under fire everything could have been different

[tvc184]

Honestly, as point blank as the guys were, would tackling the perp been a better option than drawing on him? No way can I put myself in their shoes, neither could any of us, but seems like that could have kept him from drawing his shotgun and taking shots.

Sometimes not pulling your firearm might be the best option. This might especially be true when faced a couple of feet away from a firearm at the ready.

Could the closest guy to him have grabbed the long gun before the shooting started? Maybe. I have mentioned that to a couple of people today.

To do so would have required an instant response and knowing what you were going to do before that time came. I doubt the people involved in this incident had even gone over that situation at least in their minds. Two seconds before shots are being fired is a bad time to start making plans.

The two heroes that were shot probably only had one option in their minds and that was to try and outshoot a long gun from point blank range from a holstered weapon. They did their best.

It is hard to criticize the bravery and sacrifice and second guessing possible alternatives, however....

Failure to critique for better options can possibly lead to unnecessary injury or death in the future.

Where did the military or police learn most of their current tactics or even their weapons? It was learned many times through hard lessons on the battlefield and on streets. It was learned many times by mistakes that sometimes cost serious injuries or lives. In my opinion we do a disservice to those who have stepped up and maybe made the ultimate sacrifice if we ignore what they did and use that sacrifice to save others in the future.

Could the closest guy have pushed the gun barrel down, even if not completely disarming the bad guy? Could he have hung on for 2 seconds until help arrived? Maybe. We will never know. Maybe the closest security did think it out ahead of time and just made the instant decision that it wouldn’t work. Again, we will likely never know.

But everyone that plans on being in that position or even walking through a mall with family, needs to go through scenarios in their mind by playing what if. What if this happened or what if that happened....

Merely being a good shot is sometimes not enough. Tactics can at times overcome skills.

In my opinion....

[Let's go Brandon!]

Sometimes not pulling your firearm might be the best option. This might especially be true when faced a couple of feet away from a firearm at the ready.

Could the closest guy to him have grabbed the long gun before the shooting started? Maybe. I have mentioned that to a couple of people today.

To do so would have required an instant response and knowing what you were going to do before that time came. I doubt the people involved in this incident had even gone over that situation at least in their minds. Two seconds before shots are being fired is a bad time to start making plans.

The two heroes that were shot probably only had one option in their minds and that was to try and outshoot a long gun from point blank range from a holstered weapon. They did their best.

It is hard to criticize the bravery and sacrifice and second guessing possible alternatives, however....

Failure to critique for better options can possibly lead to unnecessary injury or death in the future.

Where did the military or police learn most of their current tactics or even their weapons? It was learned many times through hard lessons on the battlefield and on streets. It was learned many times by mistakes that sometimes cost serious injuries or lives. In my opinion we do a disservice to those who have stepped up and maybe made the ultimate sacrifice if we ignore what they did and use that sacrifice to save others in the future.

Could the closest guy have pushed the gun barrel down, even if not completely disarming the bad guy? Could he have hung on for 2 seconds until help arrived? Maybe. We will never know. Maybe the closest security did think it out ahead of time and just made the instant decision that it wouldn’t work. Again, we will likely never know.

But everyone that plans on being in that position or even walking through a mall with family, needs to go through scenarios in their mind by playing what if. What if this happened or what if that happened....

Merely being a good shot is sometimes not enough. Tactics can at times overcome skills.

In my opinion....

excellent post

[DrBob]

Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:13

God bless you Jack Wilson. Anton Wallace and Richard White.

Perfectly worded.
My heart aches for the deceased heroes and their loved ones.
My heart swells at the bravery of those who gave or risked their lives.
We need more men like you.

[kmitchl]

I think the take away for me from this is if you are ever in a situation like this there is no substitute for training and practice. Shooting a handgun effectively in a close combat environment is all about muscle memory which only comes through multiple reps.

[systemnt]

I wont question any of their actions.
They acted.
They werent sheep.
Anyone questioning what those men did or should have done or should not have done should be ****ing ashamed of themselves - i dont give a rats **** what profession you are.

**** you beto.

[bloodtrailer28]

I wont question any of their actions.
They acted.
They werent sheep.
Anyone questioning what those men did or should have done or should not have done should be ****ing ashamed of themselves - i dont give a rats **** what profession you are.

**** you beto.

Got to agree with this. Those men stood up and gave their lives for their church.

[manwitaplan]

Sometimes not pulling your firearm might be the best option. This might especially be true when faced a couple of feet away from a firearm at the ready.



Could the closest guy to him have grabbed the long gun before the shooting started? Maybe. I have mentioned that to a couple of people today.



To do so would have required an instant response and knowing what you were going to do before that time came. I doubt the people involved in this incident had even gone over that situation at least in their minds. Two seconds before shots are being fired is a bad time to start making plans.



The two heroes that were shot probably only had one option in their minds and that was to try and outshoot a long gun from point blank range from a holstered weapon. They did their best.



It is hard to criticize the bravery and sacrifice and second guessing possible alternatives, however....



Failure to critique for better options can possibly lead to unnecessary injury or death in the future.



Where did the military or police learn most of their current tactics or even their weapons? It was learned many times through hard lessons on the battlefield and on streets. It was learned many times by mistakes that sometimes cost serious injuries or lives. In my opinion we do a disservice to those who have stepped up and maybe made the ultimate sacrifice if we ignore what they did and use that sacrifice to save others in the future.



Could the closest guy have pushed the gun barrel down, even if not completely disarming the bad guy? Could he have hung on for 2 seconds until help arrived? Maybe. We will never know. Maybe the closest security did think it out ahead of time and just made the instant decision that it wouldn’t work. Again, we will likely never know.



But everyone that plans on being in that position or even walking through a mall with family, needs to go through scenarios in their mind by playing what if. What if this happened or what if that happened....



Merely being a good shot is sometimes not enough. Tactics can at times overcome skills.



In my opinion....

Perfectly stated. I agree.


Sent from my iPhone

[xman59]

Honestly, as point blank as the guys were, would tackling the perp been a better option than drawing on him? No way can I put myself in their shoes, neither could any of us, but seems like that could have kept him from drawing his shotgun and taking shots.

for the first man this would have been the best option, but without training it's not likely many would react fast enough, when someone is ahead of you on a draw especially up close attack is possibly the only option

[Jethro]

Vedder makes a great holster. The light tuck being my favorite from them.

Preference is appendix for me, and the N82 tactical holsters are by far the best I’ve found.

So you carry the 48 appendix? Which model of the N82 holster are you using? How is the draw stroke coming out of it?

I have used a Crossbreed Supertuck for years with my G19 at 4 oclock, but that option leaves some to be desired.

[ca1219]

I came across this and thought it was quite entertaining. Horrible situation but definitely could have been worse.

[xman59]

Got to agree with this. Those men stood up and gave their lives for their church.

not for the church but for their friends and families,,, these guys did not give it for a belief