Newbie Traditional question

[Warwagon]

Hey fellas... I'm attempting to make the switch to a recurve. I picked up a nice used 48lb Bob Lee and have been studying and practicing a bunch. I'm shooting GT 35/55 Traditional arrows cut to 28" with a 100grn field point and I seem to be getting really good arrow flight with surprising speed!!! The arrow I'm shooting weighs 376grns so here's my question. Would it be ok for me to hunt deer and other Texas critters with a 100grn broadhead or should I shoot a heavier BH? I'm trying to stay with 100grns because I already have a bunch of them. Please give me some advice?

[Hunter Todd]

What kind of broadheads are you wanting to shoot? You can always add heavier inserts to get more weight up front, if needed.
Also, welcome to the trad side!

[SwampRabbit]

Well if that 48# is at your draw length, then you are shooting 7.8gpp (grains of arrow weight per pound of draw.) Typically the "recommended" is somewhere around 10gpp although folks tend to range from 8-12 gpp. I'd say you are shooting pretty light, but close.

Is 48# the weight at your draw length? Since your arrows are cut to 28", I'd suspect you might be drawing shorter than 28" and some bows are marked for a 28" draw (although not all of them are!)

If it were me, I'd up the weight of the arrow to get closer to that 10gpp range. It gives you more punch for that range of draw weight (sub 50s) and it should quiet down the bow more.

But that is just me.

Welcome to the trad side... lots of fun to be had around here

(edit: I originally said 7gpp instead of 7.8gpp because I had my calculator in programmer mode!!!!)

[Warwagon]

Thanks for the help... gonna check my draw length and weigh everything again


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[Draco]

Although I know nothing about carbon arrows, I would tend to agree with the Rabbit. The lighter your arrows, the closer to dry firing your bow. I've always heard to shoot at least 9 gr. per pound of pull. I have shot lighter with much heavier pull and the bows still work fine but never as light per # as you are.

Also, as the Rabbit mentioned, more weight will give you more penetration at that light weight. To achieve that you could shorten your arrows to stiffen them and use much heavier points.

[Dry Bones]

Just my .02 cents. But I am in agreement with SwampRabbit, as it tends to be more often then not. If your arrows are 28" the I am thinking you may not be getting the full length draw, which in turn would mean less draw weight. Remember no cams so less draw back means less draw weight. Also I shoot the 35/55's BUT I have 245 grains in the nose. I am not even trying to suggest it has to be that way, just what works for me. This set-up works well for my Recurve which is about 46# at my draw and my longbow which is 51 # at my draw. I have 100 grain brass inserts and 145 grain heads.
-Depending on the cut of the shelf you may or may not be able to get away with stiffer arrows. The closer to center the arrow passes the more range of spine your bow will tolerate. Add more to the nose softens the spine as does length. I shoot the 35/55's full length. I know there are some who shoot light arrows through traditional bows, but I choose to shoot heavier. and again like Rabbit said, it will quieten down your bow some and increase the penetration of the arrow. Speed and mass both kill, but in trad bows we are not dealing with Great Speed.
Hope I have not rambled to long and good luck.. Welcome.

[Dry Bones]

One other small bit of info is that my arrows are just over 525 grains and I shoot them in both rigs. So that makes 11.4 grains per pound of draw weight in the recurve and 10.294 gpp on the longbow.

[Junkers88]

What helped me get a good baseline on my arrows was this.

http://www.3riversarchery.com/dynamic-spine-arrow-calculator-from-3rivers-archery.html

Once you figure out your draw length you can get in there and input your information and play around a bit to see what different weight up front will do. It's nowhere near as accurate as actually tuning your shafts but it is a good place to start.

Richard.

Edit: Based on your information above I plugged in some numbers to see what the dynamic spines looked like.

[SwampRabbit]

I was thinking those arrows might be stiff since 3355s are essentially .500 spine and cut to 28" with a 100gr weight is going to be north of 60# on the dynamic spine chart. But I know nothing about the bow, and I am starting to distrust that calculator a bit for some bows.

Once you get a better idea of your actual draw length and draw weight, then you can start the estimation game.

I think what will end up happening is that you could stand to add 50gr - 100 gr up front and you'll still get decent flight. Stiff arrows still seem to shoot like darts for me... they just shoot left... way left. If you add some weight up front, you will have to adjust a little to the movement of impact back over the right.

Again, don't want to get too far ahead of all this without a little more info on what you are actually pulling.

[Warwagon]

Ok. Now I'm more confused. For the record I'm a 29" draw on my compound.

The recurve that I have says 48# @ 28". I've always heard your draw length is about an inch shorter with a recurve. I measured my arrows once again and they are 28" from insert to the valley of the nock. I drew the bow back and had my wife measure my draw 3 different times. She measured my inside grip between my thumb and forefinger and marked the arrow. That measurement is 25". At full draw I have 3/4" of shaft beyond my hand. I'm hoping I didn't mess up when I had all of my arrows cut to this length!?!?!??

So....if I need to add some weight up front and my inserts are already glued in, what's the best way to accomplish this? Just buy a heavier FP/BH. According to some of the recommendations above, that would mean I need to be shooting a 150-200grn tip. Is correct...sounds crazy to me but again I'm a rookie at this trad thing!!

Thanks for the advice and help so far!!!


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[Hunter Todd]

Depending on what type of insert glue that was used, you might try a little heat to the field point and see if that will release the glue.

[Junkers88]

To get the inserts out of mine I found a drill bit that would just slide into the shaft from the nock end and then "flung" it downwards until the insert and bit came out. Don't do this pointing at anything that might break like *ahem* your plasma TV.


Richard.

Edit: Once you get the inserts out you can add weight up front with weighted inserts and/or the Gold Tip weight system. I've got 100g brass inserts in one set of arrows and the weight system in the other for two different bows. Both work equally well.

[SwampRabbit]

Ok. Now I'm more confused. For the record I'm a 29" draw on my compound.

I'll do my best to clarify

The recurve that I have says 48# @ 28". I've always heard your draw length is about an inch shorter with a recurve. I measured my arrows once again and they are 28" from insert to the valley of the nock. I drew the bow back and had my wife measure my draw 3 different times.

The variability between compound draw length and recurve/longbow draw length has to do with a couple of factors. Where you anchor and where the nock of the arrow ends up makes a big difference. My compound was 27.5", my recurve was 27". But with a mechanical release, the length of the D-loop etc all taken into account, the arrow nock didn't move much more forward on my face. I hope this make sense. There is a general average... but it varies.

She measured my inside grip between my thumb and forefinger and marked the arrow. That measurement is 25". At full draw I have 3/4" of shaft beyond my hand.

Draw length is to the front of the riser, not the grip of the bow or your hand. To measure it, you have your wife mark the shaft at the front of the riser. The front being the part of the riser on the target side, not your side. So have your wife mark the shaft there. What I do is I mark the arrow from the insert back in 1/4" increments and have my wife take a picture of me as I hold before I shoot.

I'm hoping I didn't mess up when I had all of my arrows cut to this length!?!?!??

The only way you messed up is if you don't have any arrow hanging out the front of your bow. You have to have something... your broad heads won't make it past the riser when you draw. It is hard to tell because you are using your "hand" above as a reference when it is always the front end of the riser that the measurement is taken from.

So....if I need to add some weight up front and my inserts are already glued in, what's the best way to accomplish this? Just buy a heavier FP/BH. According to some of the recommendations above, that would mean I need to be shooting a 150-200grn tip. Is correct...sounds crazy to me but again I'm a rookie at this trad thing!!

Since you are shooting GT's there are adapter weights you can screw in from inside the shaft. This is how I add weight.

Or you can add a heavier broadhead. You can find heavy broadheads. I shoot a 175gr head AND add 50 gr of screw in weight.

I didn't ask, but are you shooting off the shelf, or a rest?

[Warwagon]

First of all, thank y'all very much!!! The irony in all of this....I'm trying to make this switch to simplify bow hunting and it's kinda feeling like the total opposite..ha ha!!

Swamp rabbit...I'm shooting off the shelf.


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[SwampRabbit]

The irony in all of this....I'm trying to make this switch to simplify bow hunting and it's kinda feeling like the total opposite..ha ha!!

There is a saying, or quote or something that I'll attempt to paraphrase. The modern compound bow takes the complexities of archery, and embeds it into the equipment. When you shoot a simple stick and string, the complexities are put back into the responsibility of the archer to understand, solve, and master.

So when folks yearn for the "simple"; it really refers to the equipment and the challenge that comes with mastering such seemingly simple things. It does put a huge burden on the archer; especially early on. But our brains and body can handle quite a bit and eventually, at some point, it becomes natural. Kind of like riding a bike.