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Old 12-28-2018, 08:39 PM   #1
sharpshooter1
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Default Aging deer by the lower jaw.

Just how accurate is the lower jaw tooth aging?
My dad killed a nice 8 point this year and we aged him by his lower jaw at 3.5. But weíre pretty sure from trail camera pics over the years that he was at least 5.5. We usually donít worry about exact ages because where we hunt is all family land and pretty much just family hunts it. We manage the deer but we donít get crazy with it. We focuse on shooting mature bucks and donít worry about exact ages. But if this deer was really 3.5, his body size and demeanor were definitely not showing it.
So what day the green screen, how accurate is tooth wear aging??
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Old 12-28-2018, 08:52 PM   #2
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There are many variables. It’s definitely not exact. Some say it’s about 40% accurate. Not sure how true that is though.
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Old 12-28-2018, 09:06 PM   #3
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About as accurate as winning the lottery.
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Old 12-28-2018, 09:10 PM   #4
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There are many variables. Itís definitely not exact. Some say itís about 40% accurate. Not sure how true that is though.
The percentage I've read is around this, but the cementum annuli method is only a little better according to the same article, somewhere in the mid to upper 50% range if I remember correctly. This was a test on bucks whose ages were known.
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Old 12-28-2018, 09:13 PM   #5
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Some what accurate, but not precise! Depending on diet and range conditions it can be off by years. I have seen know age deer that were 8 1/2 years old and the tooth wear (jaw) shows 3 1/2. The only precise way to know the age is to tag them when they are born. Aging by tooth wear is mostly SWAG.
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Old 12-28-2018, 09:38 PM   #6
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Some what accurate, but not precise! Depending on diet and range conditions it can be off by years. I have seen know age deer that were 8 1/2 years old and the tooth wear (jaw) shows 3 1/2. The only precise way to know the age is to tag them when they are born. Aging by tooth wear is mostly SWAG.
This!
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Old 12-28-2018, 11:34 PM   #7
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Hot topic recently. It's been my observation that possibly more than half of the GS crowd that respond to tooth wear posts dont have a clear grasp on the methodology or have created their own sideline guidelines.

Tooth wear has been proven to be variable when used to estimate an exact age. Yes, 50-60% accuracy from tested experts in 2 studies. Cementum Anuli is actually a little better, especially on really old deer. There are the occasional extreme outliers, but lumping ages, as you describe, is pretty functional for management purposes. When lumped, the same experts increased their accuracy to 80-90%.

If all the bucks you kill end up having at least one dished out molar, you're doing awesome!

Also, I would like to encourage everyone to remember that hunting is supposed to be FUN. Stressing out about ages, or penalties for killing a buck too young, or kicking people off properties seriously sucks the fun out of it.

Strive for old, but don't let your heart be cold.
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Old 12-29-2018, 12:03 AM   #8
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Thanks guys! This is about what I expected. And yea Top of Texas, I agree. That’s why we don’t get crazy with management and aging. If the grand kids want to shoot a buck their free to, if the grand dads (my dad) want to shoot any deer, it’s not a big deal! We have fun on our place.
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Old 12-29-2018, 05:40 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
Hot topic recently. It's been my observation that possibly more than half of the GS crowd that respond to tooth wear posts dont have a clear grasp on the methodology or have created their own sideline guidelines.

Tooth wear has been proven to be variable when used to estimate an exact age. Yes, 50-60% accuracy from tested experts in 2 studies. Cementum Anuli is actually a little better, especially on really old deer. There are the occasional extreme outliers, but lumping ages, as you describe, is pretty functional for management purposes. When lumped, the same experts increased their accuracy to 80-90%.

If all the bucks you kill end up having at least one dished out molar, you're doing awesome!

Also, I would like to encourage everyone to remember that hunting is supposed to be FUN. Stressing out about ages, or penalties for killing a buck too young, or kicking people off properties seriously sucks the fun out of it.

Strive for old, but don't let your heart be cold.
Yep, yep and yep!

If tooth aging is as high as 60%, I would be surprised. You gotta start somewhere but, it aint concrete.
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Old 01-04-2019, 10:45 AM   #10
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I've read articles saying its around 40% accurate
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:29 PM   #11
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Lots of variation---I just age them as young (.5 to 2.5), middle-aged (3.5-5.5) and old (6.5 +) Do the same thing with bucks on the hoof.
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Old 01-05-2019, 12:46 AM   #12
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It's so inaccurate that it is almost not worth doing..
I'm mean why? Its almost useless. Best guess type situation.
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Old 01-05-2019, 07:53 AM   #13
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You can send there bottom front teeth to Texas a&m they can tell exact age and it’s cheap and yes jawbone teeth can be misleading I have seen deer be 2 or 3 yrs older and deer younger than we thought
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:42 PM   #14
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It's so inaccurate that it is almost not worth doing..
I'm mean why? Its almost useless. Best guess type situation.
I could not agree more. We have a couple of dumb suns a bistquits on our place I swear they think they have the magic tooth finger. Run their finger up a deers mouth and poof they know the age. Idiots. Two examples from this season so far. I had two bucks I have been watching for 4 years and this year they are 6 to seven years old minimum. Ol magic finger not knowing what I know claimed them to be 4 year olds. Even with presented photographic evidence they still were not convinced they could be wrong. Irritates the crap outta me. Even when I pull out the jaws I keep of the deer I have had cementum aged that are 4, 5, 6 and 7 years old. Nope the magic finger never lies.
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:50 PM   #15
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I could not agree more. We have a couple of dumb suns a bistquits on our place I swear they think they have the magic tooth finger. Run their finger up a deers mouth and poof they know the age. Idiots. Two examples from this season so far. I had two bucks I have been watching for 4 years and this year they are 6 to seven years old minimum. Ol magic finger not knowing what I know claimed them to be 4 year olds. Even with presented photographic evidence they still were not convinced they could be wrong. Irritates the crap outta me. Even when I pull out the jaws I keep of the deer I have had cementum aged that are 4, 5, 6 and 7 years old. Nope the magic finger never lies.
LMBO..... I know the type all to well!! I got on a lease south of Brackketville some years back and the "lease boss" was actually trying to convince me that you age a deer by the wear on his bottom front teeth.... I'm sure the look on my face baffled him.. He was one of those "know it alls too"... But hey he subscribed to Buckmasters magazine.... LMAO!!!!
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:56 PM   #16
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I could not agree more. We have a couple of dumb suns a bistquits on our place I swear they think they have the magic tooth finger. Run their finger up a deers mouth and poof they know the age. Idiots. Two examples from this season so far. I had two bucks I have been watching for 4 years and this year they are 6 to seven years old minimum. Ol magic finger not knowing what I know claimed them to be 4 year olds. Even with presented photographic evidence they still were not convinced they could be wrong. Irritates the crap outta me. Even when I pull out the jaws I keep of the deer I have had cementum aged that are 4, 5, 6 and 7 years old. Nope the magic finger never lies.
Sounds familiar except this guy claims to be able to judge absolute age while on the hoof and is "never" wrong.
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:18 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by ttaxidermy View Post
It's so inaccurate that it is almost not worth doing..
I'm mean why? Its almost useless. Best guess type situation.
That's not true.

What you say IS true, if being performed by someone who doesn't have a clear understanding of the terminology and methodology (i.e. "Magic Finger Guy"), and its limitations.

Is it perfect? No.
Is it good for management purposes? Yes.

By the way, I love your Avatar photo.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:26 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
That's not true.

What you say IS true, if being performed by someone who doesn't have a clear understanding of the terminology and methodology (i.e. "Magic Finger Guy"), and its limitations.

Is it perfect? No.
Is it good for management purposes? Yes.

By the way, I love your Avatar photo.
Why are you trolling me today.. It's been PROVEN to be all but useless.. You cannot accurately age a deer by looking at its teeth and that's a fact..
It can and does vary greatly.. How is that useful?? Besides that who shoots a deer based off of what his teeth look like? No one. Your looking at them after the damage has been done..

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Old 01-14-2019, 07:09 PM   #19
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Other than getting one to tell you how old he is itís about the best way. Field judging is far from an exact science either. You can tell if they are under 3 1/2 pretty easy or over 6 1/2 pretty easy. Same as with the teeth.


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Old 01-14-2019, 09:19 PM   #20
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Why are you trolling me today.. It's been PROVEN to be all but useless.. You cannot accurately age a deer by looking at its teeth and that's a fact..
It can and does vary greatly.. How is that useful?? Besides that who shoots a deer based off of what his teeth look like? No one. Your looking at them after the damage has been done..
HA! "Trolling" - Haven't heard that before but needs no definition. Definitely not intentional or targeting you. Over the last 2 years, I've noticed many new/novice/beginner management minded hunters using the GS looking for information and not having the background for discernment. When I see inaccuracies being presented, I like to correct them so people get good info.

If you're open to it, and there's a possibility you can be swayed, I'm willing to describe the management oriented uses of deer ages based on tooth wear. But sounds like you've got your mind made up. However, if our banter continues then I might do it anyway, just because readers are reading.
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:28 PM   #21
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HA! "Trolling" - Haven't heard that before but needs no definition. Definitely not intentional or targeting you. Over the last 2 years, I've noticed many new/novice/beginner management minded hunters using the GS looking for information and not having the background for discernment. When I see inaccuracies being presented, I like to correct them so people get good info.

If you're open to it, and there's a possibility you can be swayed, I'm willing to describe the management oriented uses of deer ages based on tooth wear. But sounds like you've got your mind made up. However, if our banter continues then I might do it anyway, just because readers are reading.
LOL.. In accuracies?? This is a knee slapper..

So how exactly does one gain this "background for discernment"?? Books??

I'm not easily swayed but not closed minded either.. Fire away..
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:45 AM   #22
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Serious questions,

If the method is so unreliable why is it used so commonly?

Lack of anything better? easier?

Just curious why TPWD or biologists pull jaw bones if it is a crap shoot?

I can understand how tooth wear can vary by region and environment
i.e. a deer eating out of a trough vs one picking up corn out of sand

BTW, I think it would help on threads like this if you posted your qualifications
For example mine might be "typical uneducated hunter trying to learn".
That way when someone comes along and reads my opinion followed by a reply from a "25yr wildlife biologist" and they are opposite folks would have a better idea of who should be relied on more
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:54 AM   #23
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I'm not easily swayed but not closed minded either.. Fire away..
First, I want to encourage everyone to take the concept of tooth aging being an exact science, meaning every deer's teeth wears exactly the same, and flush that down the toilet of your brain. Replace it with this concept: Tooth aging is really really good for determining young, middle aged, and old in nearly all deer, thus it can be used for management purposes.

Let's address an item dear to the heart of most Green Screen users. "Did I kill that buck at a good old age with what could be its best set of antlers?"

Scenario 1: A group lease has killed 5 bucks per year for 5 years. They complain they can't grow big bucks, seem to peak around 130-135 B&C. Tooth wear age shows all 25 bucks to be be 3-5 years old. Staying focused on the topic, what's the management decision to be made?

Important for doe as well.
Scenario 2: A high fence propery has been heavily killing doe for 6 years trying to reduce population size, but doe are becoming hard to find, and hunters can't reach their quota. Their biologist pressures them to try harder. The lease boss, who understands tooth wear, shows the biologist doe ages. The first year of doe harvest showed a wide distribution of doe ages from 1-8 yrs with a peak around 4 yrs. The last year of harvest showed doe age to peak at 2 yrs with only a few 5 yrs. Staying focused on the topic, what's the management decision to be made?
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:23 AM   #24
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BTW, I think it would help on threads like this if you posted your qualifications
For example mine might be "typical uneducated hunter trying to learn".
That way when someone comes along and reads my opinion followed by a reply from a "25yr wildlife biologist" and they are opposite folks would have a better idea of who should be relied on more
It's not a crap-shoot. The problem occurs when people apply it to situations outside the limits of the method. For example: kicking people off.

I strive to make discussions that are compelling, persuasive, practical, as well as science and experience based. I would hope that readers can discern for themselves what side of the fence to land without the need for flashing resumes. It's often the counter argument that spurs the disclosure of additional evidence as a debate develops. If a reader has a differing opinion, belief, or experience, how might their post change based on the resume of the responder? Would they hold back if they were under the impression they were debating with an "Expert"? Finally, some level of anonymity allows freedom from accusations of pride or ego. How high and mighty can someone feel if no one knows who they are. I make these posts, not to be percieved as the expert, rather, solely for the hope of improving the experiences and successes of my fellow Texas hunters.
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Old 01-25-2019, 07:25 AM   #25
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Seriously? Come on guys/gals, it's been over a week.

No takers on the scenarios described in post #23 above?

Those are not hypotheticals, it's going on all over Texas. Real life examples of the management importance of age by tooth wear. Give it a shot - what are the management implications?
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Old 01-26-2019, 06:50 PM   #26
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I will, I will!

Scenario 1; If the tooth estimate show bucks being 3-5 years of age, that is bucks being taken before all of their potential has been exhausted. I think the solution is to convince the hunters next season, to take a bunch of doe and to bypass taking bucks for one season, unless a "wallhanger" shows his face. Presently, now start planting plots and add some supplemental feed and possibly add some minerals stations. However the plots and minerals will take years to show a difference. Letting bucks walk requires some discipline but is the quickest way to see an improvement.
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Old 01-26-2019, 07:22 PM   #27
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Scenario 2; Based up on your info, let the doe live for a year and allow the hunters to take a "normal" quota. It seems that a lot of pressure has been put on doe harvest....uhoh, there's that word. In effect, they have successfully lowered the age range of the doe. Give them a break.

One word on tooth aging. I don't think teeth from a 3-5 year old deer from the Hill country will look the same as 3-5 deer from the Mid West simply because of food types. In the Hill Country, deer eat a lot of corn right off the ground, chewing a lot of sand, thus increasing tooth wear. So I think it has to be a regional comparison standard.

Im not a big fan of tooth wear aging simply because 90 percent of us have no idea how to judge them properly. Then next thing you know you are kicked off a lease by someone in that 90 percent.

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Old 01-29-2019, 10:45 AM   #28
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Lets breathe some life back into this thread.
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Old 01-29-2019, 11:10 AM   #29
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Seriously? Come on guys/gals, it's been over a week.

No takers on the scenarios described in post #23 above?

Those are not hypotheticals, it's going on all over Texas. Real life examples of the management importance of age by tooth wear. Give it a shot - what are the management implications?
I guess I presumed you was an expert and thats why I engaged the conversation with you. I look at the teeth on virtually every deer we kill. I agree its a tool to determine general age class and can be useful as such. However... knowing what the tooth wear looks like on known age deer on your property is critical to even that use.

You said tooth wear on same age class deer was similar in some named regions and I agree. The thing missing from your statement was how deer from the heavily wooded East Tx area compare. I maintain that teeth wear considerably slower here compared to other parts of the state due to softer browse and less grit. I truely believe deer would live a natural life in East Tx averaging at least two years longer than West tx. Especially if the property has high grade food plots.

In the examples you gave, age and nutrition are the answer.

Last edited by GarGuy; 01-29-2019 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 01-29-2019, 02:31 PM   #30
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If there is sand, then they may appear to be older.
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Old 02-02-2019, 11:02 PM   #31
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I will, I will!

Scenario 1; If the tooth estimate show bucks being 3-5 years of age, that is bucks being taken before all of their potential has been exhausted. I think the solution is to convince the hunters next season, to take a bunch of doe and to bypass taking bucks for one season, unless a "wallhanger" shows his face. Presently, now start planting plots and add some supplemental feed and possibly add some minerals stations. However the plots and minerals will take years to show a difference. Letting bucks walk requires some discipline but is the quickest way to see an improvement.
Well done!
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Old 02-02-2019, 11:16 PM   #32
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Scenario 2; Based up on your info, let the doe live for a year and allow the hunters to take a "normal" quota. It seems that a lot of pressure has been put on doe harvest....uhoh, there's that word. In effect, they have successfully lowered the age range of the doe. Give them a break.

One word on tooth aging. I don't think teeth from a 3-5 year old deer from the Hill country will look the same as 3-5 deer from the Mid West simply because of food types. In the Hill Country, deer eat a lot of corn right off the ground, chewing a lot of sand, thus increasing tooth wear. So I think it has to be a regional comparison standard.

Im not a big fan of tooth wear aging simply because 90 percent of us have no idea how to judge them properly. Then next thing you know you are kicked off a lease by someone in that 90 percent.
Well done again!

In both scenarios and with no regard for region or soil type, tooth wear aging guided good decisions in management. 1) Let bucks get old, regardless of antler size, by improving field aging abilities. 2) Reduce doe harvest and re-evaluate population estimate methodology.

Follow the link below. Scroll down to "A Guide To Age Determination of Whitetail Deer". Learn terminology and methodology. Use the technique within the bounds of its limitations keeping in mind the deer haven't read it.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/wild...nagement/deer/

Go hunt and keep it fun!
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Old 02-02-2019, 11:49 PM   #33
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Thank you.
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Old 02-03-2019, 09:25 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
First, I want to encourage everyone to take the concept of tooth aging being an exact science, meaning every deer's teeth wears exactly the same, and flush that down the toilet of your brain. Replace it with this concept: Tooth aging is really really good for determining young, middle aged, and old in nearly all deer, thus it can be used for management purposes.

Let's address an item dear to the heart of most Green Screen users. "Did I kill that buck at a good old age with what could be its best set of antlers?"

Scenario 1: A group lease has killed 5 bucks per year for 5 years. They complain they can't grow big bucks, seem to peak around 130-135 B&C. Tooth wear age shows all 25 bucks to be be 3-5 years old. Staying focused on the topic, what's the management decision to be made?

Important for doe as well.
Scenario 2: A high fence propery has been heavily killing doe for 6 years trying to reduce population size, but doe are becoming hard to find, and hunters can't reach their quota. Their biologist pressures them to try harder. The lease boss, who understands tooth wear, shows the biologist doe ages. The first year of doe harvest showed a wide distribution of doe ages from 1-8 yrs with a peak around 4 yrs. The last year of harvest showed doe age to peak at 2 yrs with only a few 5 yrs. Staying focused on the topic, what's the management decision to be made?
Modern managers with trail camera histories kick the crap out of tooth wear when it comes to accurately aging deer. If thatís all you have, then great, but itís no more accurate than aging on the hoof.

If you need tooth wear to convince your biologist that you need to stop shooting does. You need a new biologist.
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Old 02-03-2019, 11:22 AM   #35
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Modern managers with trail camera histories kick the crap out of tooth wear when it comes to accurately aging deer. If thatís all you have, then great, but itís no more accurate than aging on the hoof.
Cool! You managed to answer the question in Scenario 1 while attempting to dodge it. Tooth wear revealed that the group of hunters need education in field aging bucks, which cameras can play a significant role. That's a real life scenario that is occurring all over Texas.
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Old 02-03-2019, 12:15 PM   #36
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If you need tooth wear to convince your biologist that you need to stop shooting does. You need a new biologist.
An experienced biologist will know that doe become nocturnal when heavily hunted, as well as being aware of the impacts that good range conditions and/or years of heavy acorn crops have on movements. Those are compounding variables impossible to quantify in terms of hunters seeing doe. Accurate population estimates are also notoriously difficult to nail down. These variables leave open the question - Are doe scarce due to harvest or some other factor? In scenario 2, looking at the distribution of doe ages in the harvest sheds light on what's actually occurring. Since the age distribution has shifted to younger doe, then scarcity of doe can be attributed to harvest. Conversely, if the distribution remained constant, then harvest would not be responsible for scarcity of doe.

Additionally, and expanding beyond the topic of tooth wear, a good biologist will also be keeping a close eye on browse use on top quality plants. This is a key component of population management.

Deer are terribly uncooperative in giving up information. Managing a deer herd is like putting together a giant jigsaw puzzle. Each piece of data, including tooth wear ages, adds to completing a complex picture. The pieces also include population estimates over numerous years, browse use, age structure, fawn crops, nutrition, livestock stocking rates, antler measurements relative to buck age, field dressed weights, harvest numbers, etc. Each piece of the puzzle adds to the clarity of the image and helps guide management decisions.

Any property with a biologist who claims tooth wear has no place in management is a property that needs a new biologist.

Tooth wear aging is a valuable tool when used within its limitations.
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Old 02-03-2019, 12:34 PM   #37
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An experienced biologist will know that doe become nocturnal when heavily hunted, as well as being aware of the impacts that good range conditions and/or years of heavy acorn crops have on movements. Those are compounding variables impossible to quantify in terms of hunters seeing doe. Accurate population estimates are also notoriously difficult to nail down. These variables leave open the question - Are doe scarce due to harvest or some other factor? In scenario 2, looking at the distribution of doe ages in the harvest sheds light on what's actually occurring. Since the age distribution has shifted to younger doe, then scarcity of doe can be attributed to harvest. Conversely, if the distribution remained constant, then harvest would not be responsible for scarcity of doe.

Additionally, and expanding beyond the topic of tooth wear, a good biologist will also be keeping a close eye on browse use on top quality plants. This is a key component of population management.

Deer are terribly uncooperative in giving up information. Managing a deer herd is like putting together a giant jigsaw puzzle. Each piece of data, including tooth wear ages, adds to completing a complex picture. The pieces also include population estimates over numerous years, browse use, age structure, fawn crops, nutrition, livestock stocking rates, antler measurements relative to buck age, field dressed weights, harvest numbers, etc. Each piece of the puzzle adds to the clarity of the image and helps guide management decisions.

Any property with a biologist who claims tooth wear has no place in management is a property that needs a new biologist.

Tooth wear aging is a valuable tool when used within its limitations.
Well I guess I should just fire myself. SMH
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Old 02-03-2019, 01:01 PM   #38
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Well I guess I should just fire myself. SMH
One day you'll figure it all out, get with the plan! I mean you don't have a track record to prove yourself or anything
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Old 02-03-2019, 01:12 PM   #39
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Tooth wear on 1 and 2 yr olds...accurate. After that a crap shoot. We have also found sending teeth to the lab variable and far from 100% accurate . Suppose every situation different but find the mantra" Know thy herd" to be best guiding light on harvest decisions.

But hey...we don't have a biologist

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Old 02-03-2019, 01:21 PM   #40
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Tooth wear on 1 and 2 yr olds...accurate. After that a crap shoot. We have also found sending teeth to the lab variable and far from 100% accurate . Suppose every situation different but find the mantra" Know thy herd" to be best guiding light on harvest decisions.

But hey...we don't have a biologist
You don't have a track record either... move along...
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Old 02-03-2019, 01:22 PM   #41
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We have been noticing it has become more inaccurate on our ranch in mexico since we have been feeding protein for about 11 years. Some deer we know for sure were 8.5 but did not show the age. They were bucks that seemed to be at protein feeders daily. Glad to read this thought we were going crazy on deer we have seen for years. Went back on pictures on a couple to check and seen the teeth could not have shown there age.
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Old 02-04-2019, 11:08 AM   #42
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Default age this lower jaw

here is one to age
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Old 02-04-2019, 12:09 PM   #43
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here is one to age
While he is likely old, i think he may also have a deformed lower jaw.
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Old 02-04-2019, 09:02 PM   #44
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here is one to age
Dude has a serious over bite.
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Old 02-04-2019, 09:08 PM   #45
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While he is likely old, i think he may also have a deformed lower jaw.
Pretty sure he was being facetious
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Old 02-04-2019, 09:11 PM   #46
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We have been noticing it has become more inaccurate on our ranch in mexico since we have been feeding protein for about 11 years. Some deer we know for sure were 8.5 but did not show the age. They were bucks that seemed to be at protein feeders daily. Glad to read this thought we were going crazy on deer we have seen for years. Went back on pictures on a couple to check and seen the teeth could not have shown there age.
Agree. Not that Im a pro or anything. I have personally decided that cameras are a better help in age guesstimation. Tooth wear is such a regional thing or determined more by what and how the deer eats.

I know there will be more arguments on this subject, but lets not get our tooth aging panties in a wad, no matter which side of the subject each person is on. I personally want to learn more and figure all of yall are good resources. Biologists, large property owners, property leasers, all have some important view points, so please, lets keep it civil.
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Old 02-05-2019, 09:06 AM   #47
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Well I guess I should just fire myself. SMH
That would depend on the goals of the property and financial liberty of the owner to grow antlers. Only a small minority of hunters in TX are gifted with the privilege to hunt properties where letting a good, young buck walk carries little risk, or where deer can be provided unlimited supplemental feed regardless of costs. Those 2 aspects of management, age and feed, are typically the primary, if not the only, focus on such properties, and on those rare properties, you're correct, they dont need a biologist. All they need is a high school kid to keep the protein feeders filled and to run trail cameras. Anyone can grow big deer in the Walmart parking lot with feed and age. If doing so consistently and over numerous years brings on admiration from others, so be it. It doesn't require a biologist.

However, the vast majority of hunters in TX shoot a buck because the neighbors might, or stress out for a year worrying if a buck they let walk will make it to next season, expend family and business dollars trying to attract and hold more deer on their place, or wish the rancher would decrease his stocking rate, or wish TPWD would allow harvest of more doe, or wish their neighbors would help kill doe instead of bucks, and on and on and on.

I shine the lights of truth and contrast on these two different paradigms for one reason. When it comes to these "management" discussions, or "science" debates in deer mgt, it's an easy trap for any hunter/manager to fall into where credence is granted to the guy who can post the most pictures of big deer. After all, if he has big deer, he must know what he's talking about. That makes sense if you don't think about it. Those rare, exclusive properties don't have to worry about management details and intricacies. Just keep the feeders full and let good bucks get old. The rest of TX doesn't have that luxury and management details and intricacies are very important.
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Old 02-05-2019, 10:46 AM   #48
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That would depend on the goals of the property and financial liberty of the owner to grow antlers. Only a small minority of hunters in TX are gifted with the privilege to hunt properties where letting a good, young buck walk carries little risk, or where deer can be provided unlimited supplemental feed regardless of costs. Those 2 aspects of management, age and feed, are typically the primary, if not the only, focus on such properties, and on those rare properties, you're correct, they dont need a biologist. All they need is a high school kid to keep the protein feeders filled and to run trail cameras. Anyone can grow big deer in the Walmart parking lot with feed and age. If doing so consistently and over numerous years brings on admiration from others, so be it. It doesn't require a biologist.

However, the vast majority of hunters in TX shoot a buck because the neighbors might, or stress out for a year worrying if a buck they let walk will make it to next season, expend family and business dollars trying to attract and hold more deer on their place, or wish the rancher would decrease his stocking rate, or wish TPWD would allow harvest of more doe, or wish their neighbors would help kill doe instead of bucks, and on and on and on.

I shine the lights of truth and contrast on these two different paradigms for one reason. When it comes to these "management" discussions, or "science" debates in deer mgt, it's an easy trap for any hunter/manager to fall into where credence is granted to the guy who can post the most pictures of big deer. After all, if he has big deer, he must know what he's talking about. That makes sense if you don't think about it. Those rare, exclusive properties don't have to worry about management details and intricacies. Just keep the feeders full and let good bucks get old. The rest of TX doesn't have that luxury and management details and intricacies are very important.
I wish I was as smart as you think you are.
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Old 02-05-2019, 11:07 AM   #49
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That would depend on the goals of the property and financial liberty of the owner to grow antlers. Only a small minority of hunters in TX are gifted with the privilege to hunt properties where letting a good, young buck walk carries little risk, or where deer can be provided unlimited supplemental feed regardless of costs. Those 2 aspects of management, age and feed, are typically the primary, if not the only, focus on such properties, and on those rare properties, you're correct, they dont need a biologist. All they need is a high school kid to keep the protein feeders filled and to run trail cameras. Anyone can grow big deer in the Walmart parking lot with feed and age. If doing so consistently and over numerous years brings on admiration from others, so be it. It doesn't require a biologist.

However, the vast majority of hunters in TX shoot a buck because the neighbors might, or stress out for a year worrying if a buck they let walk will make it to next season, expend family and business dollars trying to attract and hold more deer on their place, or wish the rancher would decrease his stocking rate, or wish TPWD would allow harvest of more doe, or wish their neighbors would help kill doe instead of bucks, and on and on and on.

I shine the lights of truth and contrast on these two different paradigms for one reason. When it comes to these "management" discussions, or "science" debates in deer mgt, it's an easy trap for any hunter/manager to fall into where credence is granted to the guy who can post the most pictures of big deer. After all, if he has big deer, he must know what he's talking about. That makes sense if you don't think about it. Those rare, exclusive properties don't have to worry about management details and intricacies. Just keep the feeders full and let good bucks get old. The rest of TX doesn't have that luxury and management details and intricacies are very important.
🤔 Yeah right
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Old 02-05-2019, 12:37 PM   #50
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Wow... aging by the lower jaw took quite a turn ��. On another note, it still baffles me how some hunting clubs/deer managers use this specifically on unknown deer to identify an age even go so far as to kick someone off of a lease. Additionally, they will even argue with other hunters when teeth do not match catalogued yearly history with a given deer. We still turn in lower jaws per buck on one of the places I hunt and I think it’s irrelevant.

Encinal, you can come consult on our 2 ranches anytime since you now fired yourself! ��
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