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Old 08-30-2019, 10:22 AM   #1
CodyWitt
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Default African safari disaster

Finally got bit. 6 moths ago I put a post on here asking for outfitter recommendations for a SA bow hunt, several people recommended Dare To Bow Hunt so I figured that would be a good place to start.

I did some more research on the outfit and couldn’t find a bad word about it so I contacted the owner of the outfit (Lammie). Lammie and I spoke on the phone for several minutes in regards to what animals I wanted to hunt and he informed me that he had two areas to hunt one of which being in Zululand and the other further north in Kimberly. Lammie felt strongly that the zululand location would be the one for us so that’s the one we booked. Pictures on the website and ones he sent of the lodging, property, and animals were beautiful and I couldn’t have been more happy at that time.

Fast forward to last month a couple weeks prior to us leaving and I get a call from Lammie wanting to meet up in person. This was convenient as he lives in Texas so we decided to meet in college station.

Our hunting group and myself walk into the meeting with Lammie and he handed some paperwork out to each one of us outlining the hunt and what it would intel. I start reading the paperwork and notice that the hunt package is now for the Kimberly location. Obviously I thought he had just handed us the wrong paperwork so I stopped and brought that up. Lammie than proceeds to tell us that it would be better if we went to the Kimberly location as the animals are bigger and there are more options..... funny as it’s the exact opposite of what he told me in our original conversation when he sold me on the Zululand location.

We hear his side of the story and run some numbers, for the animals we wanted to shoot it was going to nearly double in cost by going to the Kimberly location so we decided we would just rather stick to the original hunt that we paid for. Immediately I could tell Lammie was put off by this and his attitude changed negative very quickly. We left the meeting and he sent me a text on the way home basically scolding me for wanting to go against his wishes and assured us that he was only trying to do what is best for us. At this point the price change alone didn’t make it an option as a couple of the guys going were on a tight budget.

Fast forward again, we step off the plane in Africa and a stranger meets us, he said he would be our PH and would be taking care of us for the week (red flags everywhere at this point) we go ahead and play along and hop in the car with him and ride to the location. Couple hours of talking to the PH and I knew he was a good guy, very nice and actually enjoyed his company more than Lammie’s.

We roll into the hunting property and I’m trying to pick his brain about the situation without him knowing what I was doing. Asking about the property size, animals, lodging etc. First thing he tells me is the size of the property, it’s less than 1/2 of what we booked in the original package(again red flags all over). Secondly are the animals, animals we had paid for in our package didn’t even exist in these ranches!! Not even an option to hunt them as they don’t have any!

I’m extremely unhappy at this point as I have been lied to directly to my face several times. We roll into the lodge and I kid you not it is under construction, contractors setting trusses when we drive up. Our PH hops out and says here it is and points to two very small cabins down the hill a ways. These cabins are a far stretch from what was pictured on the website.

Trying to make the best out of a bad situation we play along not wanting something small like living quarters ruin our trip. At this point we are on our 3rd day without a shower as we flew for two days. I go into the room and turn on the water..... none. No water for the next two days as we wait for plumbers to fix the issues. Turns out we were the first people to stay in those cabins and they just finished them up hours prior to us driving up. Literally fresh paint on the walls. The lodge literally has no roof and is just open trusses, no kitchen to cook, washer or dryer, or WiFi as promised by lammie. (WiFi is a big deal to me as I have to be able to respond to business emails)

Trying to make the best of it we get our hunting stuff on and head to the blinds. On the way out to the blinds the PH spills the beans and tells me that Lammie SOLD his Zululand location last year!!!! Now it is all making sense and it’s becoming clear that we were intentionally lied to and sold something that no longer existed! A real FYRE fest situation. We hunt for a couple days and each kill a few animals, still unhappy with the situation, but doing our best to not let it ruin the experience. Our original hunt package stated that cull animal (female warthogs and impalas) could be shot at $75 each. Awesome, we are all shooting a bunch of them, about 4 days into the hunt our PH informs us that the cull animals are actually $160 in this area..... I express to him that lammie said they were $75 and he responds that he can’t do it for that price because those prices were for Lammie’s area.... again, another lie and frankly an issue he needs to take up with lammie.

We get through the week and make it back to Texas. I step off the plane in Austin and send lammie a text outlining the hunt and expressing my disappointment with him and his communication of the situation. Lammie responds with a final invoice for the animals, all the prices have changed from the original list.

***Now it’s important to understand that the lodging situation as well as the price increases would not have big deal had he just come out and told us about the actual situation “hey guys I sold that location so if y’all still wanna go there here is what that will look like and here is the new pricing for the animals” that is all he had to say and we would have been more than understanding of the situation. Unfortunately that’s not what happened.

At this point I’m more ****** at the principle of the issues than the actual issues themselves. I send him a text and tell him that I would like to see the cull animals be priced as originally agreed upon and would also like him to think about what an acceptable discount for the lack of lodging would be. He reply’s and goes straight to lawyers.... in a nutshell he said If you don’t pay I’ll take you to court and you will never see your animals....

I’m dumbfounded at this point and reply trying to ease the tensions and assure him that I’m wanting to pay, but I don’t feel as if we should be paying full price. Again, he plays hard ball and throws the lawsuit out there. This goes back and forth for a day or so and we have finally reached a dead end road. He won’t budge and I refuse to be screwed over more than I already have by this man. I don’t want to get lawyers involved, just wanna handle it like men, unfortunately he isn’t giving me an option. Am I out of line here?
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:24 AM   #2
TxAg
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Don't pay him.

Last edited by TxAg; 08-30-2019 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:29 AM   #3
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Wow. I am not at all familiar with these situations but seems like he should be the one fearing a lawsuit.
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:33 AM   #4
sharkhunter
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I’d pay him what was I agreed on and not a penny more. Let him take you to court if it doesn’t sit well with him. If he refuses to give you your animals don’t pay a dime and take him to court. This guy sounds like a straight up scam artist.

Last edited by sharkhunter; 08-30-2019 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:34 AM   #5
BlackHogDown
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..
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:34 AM   #6
flywise
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Nope, dont seem like your out of line.
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:36 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by BlackHogDown View Post
Wow. I am not at all familiar with these situations but seems like he should be the one fearing a lawsuit.


Agree


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Old 08-30-2019, 10:40 AM   #8
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if you have an original price sheet. send him that money. send it certified so he must sign for it.

then wait and see.
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:44 AM   #9
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So, Lammie lives in Texas and is an African hunt broker that sold you a hunt that included a certain animal package, at an agreed upon price that actually did not exist? And furthermore miss-represented lodging via photos in a message that can be displayed?

And....he is threating to file suit against you for breach of contract/payment?????

Rwc
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:46 AM   #10
150class
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Hope you have all the proof of pricing and conversations with him.
Seems like a bait and switch and should be good to go in court? I honesty have no idea how he thinks he can win in this situation unless you didn’t ask for anything in writing?

Sucks to hear all of that happening.
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:50 AM   #11
CodyWitt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwc View Post
So, Lammie lives in Texas and is an African hunt broker that sold you a hunt that included a certain animal package, at an agreed upon price that actually did not exist? And furthermore miss-represented lodging via photos in a message that can be displayed?

And....he is threating to file suit against you for breach of contract/payment?????

Rwc
Correct. Only he is the apparent “owner” of the operation not a broker. I don’t understand what leg he thinks he has to stand on in the situation. He just sent me a text telling me that he is no longer responsible for the condition of our animal.... basically implying good luck getting them back.
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:50 AM   #12
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Truly hate to hear this, Africa is a special place and now you have a bad taste over a bad apple. If you have all documents from the original quote I tell him to kick rocks.
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:51 AM   #13
CodyWitt
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We have it in writing, basically after all the smoke clears, the bottom line to me is this. He sold us a hunt with animals, land, and lodging that did not exist. That is all that should matter in my eyes.
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:56 AM   #14
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Awful situation, I really hate that for you. Really seems like you should be taking him to court...
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Old 08-30-2019, 10:56 AM   #15
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He will not go to court, Pay the original agreed price and post it on social media
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:01 AM   #16
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Man I cringed as I read through that, not sure I could contain myself if I went through that. As you stated, he could have been much more transparent and not been so shady. So far you’ve had to do 100% of the bending to make this hunt even remotely enjoyable. After he literally changed everything about the hunt you paid for, why won’t Lammie AT LEAST stick to the original pricing? Seems like the least he could do after shafting you guys like this...
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:06 AM   #17
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I'd tell him to bring it on! If it went down like you said it did, and you have a paper trail then he should be the one concerned. Send him what ya'll agreed upon, and move on down the road. I highly doubt he gets lawyers involved.
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:07 AM   #18
Fightinaggies
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I wouldnt pay anything, you didnt get what you agreed upon why would you owe him a thing? Chalk the animals as a loss and move on. Seems like you should be the one looking to recoup loss from him!
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:08 AM   #19
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Don’t pay! Make him take you to court and keep all pertinent info and witnesses then he won’t get a dime and will have to pay all your expenses for him suing you
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:08 AM   #20
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He will not go to court, Pay the original agreed price and post it on social media
Negative. I wouldn't pay jack until I knew for sure that my animals were being taken care of properly and being shipped to me. See ya in court buddy and we will have the Judge decide what is owed and request that the Court order al animals be taken care of and shipped according to industry standard as a condition of any payment being rendered.
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:09 AM   #21
Lawhunter
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Is this fella a member on here? Curious as to his thoughts on the matter.
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:12 AM   #22
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Pay the original agreed price and post it on social media
This. Start posting this on Facebook pages and watch how fast he changes his attitude. Hate to hear that happened.
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:14 AM   #23
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Wow. I wouldn't pay any more than the original agreed amount. And, considering his veiled threats of trashing your trophies, I probably wouldn't pay anything until I had them in my possession or at least could meet with him to personally inspect each one to verify it's mine and in good condition before we exchanged goods/money. I'd welcome the opportunity to sit in front of a judge with the guy and have us both tell our stories.
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:18 AM   #24
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He’s got a lot of pix of your hunt on his Facebook page. One of his posts states if you are not happy with your hunt he will refund your money.
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:20 AM   #25
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Man, this makes me so glad I found and chose a really good outfit. That is a lot of time and money to invest in what most folks consider a trip of a lifetime. Hopefully you have not been soured on Africa. You should seriously look at Limcroma if you plan to go again. Hannes would NEVER treat any of his clients like this. I agree with what others have said, pay him what was agreed upon. As for the animals, they have likely gone to the Dip n Ship, Exporter. If so, unless Lammie owns that company, you should be fine. The Exporter is likely a separate company and it is a separate transaction between you and them, not Lammie. He shouldn't be able to affect that, unless he never sent the animals to them. But, also sounds like Lammie was "leasing" the lodge and ranch from someone else. May want to find out who that was and let them know.

Last edited by rladner; 08-30-2019 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:24 AM   #26
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This is why I never buy hunts at auction, I always use a booking agent that I trust and that has been to the places I will hunt. Kevin Slaughter at Antler and Anglers has never put me on a bad hunt, he only sells 5 star hunts so they will cost but worth every penny.
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:24 AM   #27
Dakota7493
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Just checked out the website. Zululand is still one of the options to hunt. Pay what you were quoted from the start and not a penny more. Let him take you to court.
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:32 AM   #28
EastTexasMan
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I wouldn't send him a nickel, animals be ****ed.

I'd get a lawyer and even try to sue him to pay for your flights / expenses traveling down there while you're at it. He has no leg to stand on, he broke the contract by not providing what was agreed upon.

In the end you will have made some memories for free
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:42 AM   #29
bakin7005
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Hopefully you have a contract that told you what ranch, what accommodations, and animal prices. If you do, no sweat. Let him sue but I wouldn't pay anymore than the agreed contract until after I got the animals. Lemming, Lemon, Lame, Lammie, whatever, is a schiester but I'd be careful about any slanderous social media posts. Won't look good to the judge.

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Old 08-30-2019, 11:45 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane View Post
Wow. I wouldn't pay any more than the original agreed amount. And, considering his veiled threats of trashing your trophies, I probably wouldn't pay anything until I had them in my possession or at least could meet with him to personally inspect each one to verify it's mine and in good condition before we exchanged goods/money. I'd welcome the opportunity to sit in front of a judge with the guy and have us both tell our stories.

I agree with Shane. I would tell him all monies would be payed upon the reciept of the animals. Then I would pay him the original agreed upon price and no more.
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:46 AM   #31
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Correct. Only he is the apparent “owner” of the operation not a broker. I don’t understand what leg he thinks he has to stand on in the situation. He just sent me a text telling me that he is no longer responsible for the condition of our animal.... basically implying good luck getting them back.

Any chance you could contact the PH that guided your group and make some type of deal to get at the minimum your horns/skulls?

I am still trying to wrap my head around a person, that would knowingly taking your money for a service that he knows is not what he represented then threaten legal actions once questioned about it.

I hope that all works out for the best, but does not sound good at the moment.

Rwc
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:47 AM   #32
rladner
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wow, I just looked at his prices. probably should have been your first red flag. You get what you pay for a lot of times and in this case you weren't paying much. $1,995 per hunter for those animals seems very sketchy to me. Glad you called him out on that. Those prices will get a lot of unsuspecting people lined up with him. Now they will know . Good for you
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:52 AM   #33
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Whatever you do, don't let someone threatening litigation scare you. I'd send him a certified check for the exact amount that was agreed originaly upon, with a letter from my lawyer stating if the animals weren't recieved he'd get that court date he was so desperately looking for
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:57 AM   #34
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Did you sign a contract of any sort?

I wouldnt pay or be scared of his threats.

Looks to me like he is living in Nacogdoches and is using a picture of you and your Duiker on Facebook (even mentions your name). I would be posting your screen shots there. As you stated in your OP he depends on the public and word of mouth.
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:59 AM   #35
CodyWitt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwc View Post
So, Lammie lives in Texas and is an African hunt broker that sold you a hunt that included a certain animal package, at an agreed upon price that actually did not exist? And furthermore miss-represented lodging via photos in a message that can be displayed?

And....he is threating to file suit against you for breach of contract/payment?????

Rwc
Correct. Only he is the apparent “owner” of the operation not a broker. I don’t understand what leg he thinks he has to stand on in the situation. He just sent me a text telling me that he is no longer responsible for the condition of our animal.... basically implying good luck getting them back.
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:01 PM   #36
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Sounds like you are the one that needs to take him to court actually!?
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:03 PM   #37
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Sounds like you are the one that needs to take him to court actually!?
I agree with this.

I’d be pushing to not even pay what originally was agreed upon after all the lying and what not. Take his *** to court with the proof you have including him saying “he’s no longer responsible for the animals”. Screen shot absolutely anything and everything.
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:07 PM   #38
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At this point I have no reason to believe if I send payment that our animals will actually get to the US in good shape. Lammie has left me no other option but to assume the worst from him. I believe I’m going to have a lawyer write up a letter with the supporting evidence stating that we will pay the original price once we have the animals in hand. Not a penny more and not until I inspect them. Anyone have a lawyer recommendation? I hate that things are like this. I’m a young guy and desperately wish I was around in the days where men were men and could handle things without legal action. It’s a crying shame.
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:12 PM   #39
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I would not pay anything. If you get a Lawyer, i can't imagine it not going in your favor. Then bill him for your legal expenses. You are the victim here, him threatening with lawyers is a ploy to scare you, don't buy it. You were clearly deceived and ultimately ripped off.

In court not only would i include legal fees but also any and all travel expenses for the group, flights, license fees etc. I'd take great joy in hammering him down for every last penny. I hate liars.

Last edited by Fmjag64; 08-30-2019 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:13 PM   #40
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Your a lot nicer than I would be. I wouldn't pay him a dime. Just hold on to all the documentation and pics of the hunt. It would prob cost him more money to get a lawer and take you to court than what your trip cost to begin with then he would be out even more money. Forget the animals and take that money an put it on a legit trip.
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:13 PM   #41
breederbuck33
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He literally says in writing on his facebook page that if you're not happy you get your money back. That is hilarious! I hate that he's putting a bad taste in your mouth on that Africa trip.
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:30 PM   #42
CodyWitt
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Lol it’s comical. Now he is threatening the other people in our party that they won’t get their animals if I don’t pay. Some of whom have already paid in full.
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:41 PM   #43
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Call his bluff...
I wouldn't pay him a dime until all of my animals were back stateside, in good condition, and then he would get ONLY the initial, agreed upon amount.... He sounds like a genuine grade A shyster...
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:42 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by CodyWitt View Post
Lol it’s comical. Now he is threatening the other people in our party that they won’t get their animals if I don’t pay. Some of whom have already paid in full.
What method did they pay with?
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:53 PM   #45
Fmjag64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CodyWitt View Post
Lol it’s comical. Now he is threatening the other people in our party that they won’t get their animals if I don’t pay. Some of whom have already paid in full.
He can keep the animals. You can save the funds for a real trip. For those that paid, that sucks.
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:55 PM   #46
red-fin
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I certainly hate to hear all of this about Lammie and Dare to Bowhunt. I took my family there a few years ago and it was absolutely an awesome hunt, lodge, experience, perfect in every way. I would have highly recommended it in every way until I just read this. Are there any other bad reviews on him? Just wondering if something is going on that's out of the ordinary. I think I got the referral to him off of here? So sorry that yall had a bad first African experience.
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Old 08-30-2019, 01:15 PM   #47
sideways
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I would pay him a dime. Hope you took some good pictures!!!


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Old 08-30-2019, 01:17 PM   #48
Texas8point
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consult a lawyer and have a discussion.
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Old 08-30-2019, 01:22 PM   #49
Chief
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Sad to hear this bad experience with Lammie. Me and 2 other buddies booked with him and went over to the Zululand lodge last year and had a blast. Between the 3 of us I think we shot 29 animals total, I would have highly recommend hunting with him to anybody and all the reviews that I have ever read were all positive. Most of the reviews that I read came from this board.



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Old 08-30-2019, 01:24 PM   #50
Chief
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwc View Post
So, Lammie lives in Texas and is an African hunt broker that sold you a hunt that included a certain animal package, at an agreed upon price that actually did not exist? And furthermore miss-represented lodging via photos in a message that can be displayed?

And....he is threating to file suit against you for breach of contract/payment?????

Rwc


When we hunted with him last year he physically lived in South Africa with his family. And to our knowledge always has. I do remember him saying that he was thinking about selling that ranch though. He was planning on moving to the states because his two little girls were getting older and starting school. (Wife is from the states)



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