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Old 12-22-2018, 05:07 PM   #1
toledo
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Default Tooth age please?





Thanks!!
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Old 12-22-2018, 05:13 PM   #2
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4.5
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Old 12-22-2018, 05:25 PM   #3
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Need more info. Where taken? On protein? Terrain and soil types? Typical food sources? Have a picture of the other side as well?

Too many variables above that needs answers to even guess.
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Old 12-22-2018, 05:27 PM   #4
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I'd say 4.5. Lingual crests on 6 are still nice and sharp. Could also push 5.5 as well. I agree with above, though, depends on food sources.
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Old 12-22-2018, 05:29 PM   #5
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I’m seeing 5.5. You can get a very accurate age by sending lower two middle incissor teeth in. There are several places and usually costs about $25
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Old 12-22-2018, 05:33 PM   #6
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Milam county. Corn and browse. Medium sandy soil. Deer appeared to be 6+. Not the first one we've had that the teeth seem to age younger than we expected. Does A&M age teeth in College Station?

Last edited by toledo; 12-22-2018 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 12-22-2018, 05:42 PM   #7
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I can see 6 in that deer. On my east Texas place he would be +\-7. On my west Texas place he would be 4-5.

Tooth wear is in no way an exact science. Always good to pair with what the deer looked like on the hoof.
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Old 12-22-2018, 05:48 PM   #8
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5.5
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Old 12-22-2018, 05:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenheadless View Post
I can see 6 in that deer. On my east Texas place he would be +\-7. On my west Texas place he would be 4-5.

Tooth wear is in no way an exact science. Always good to pair with what the deer looked like on the hoof.
Well said
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Old 12-22-2018, 06:11 PM   #10
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We have to cut doe and buck jaw bones out for our lease and turn them in to biologist (25years) now. It’s a pain but educational. Looks 5.5 to me.
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Old 12-23-2018, 04:37 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by starn11gy View Post
We have to cut doe and buck jaw bones out for our lease and turn them in to biologist (25years) now. It’s a pain but educational. Looks 5.5 to me.
And then your biologist has to take a guess at how old the deer actually was. Its better than nothing but tooth aging sucks.
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Old 12-23-2018, 04:53 PM   #12
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And then your biologist has to take a guess at how old the deer actually was. Its better than nothing but tooth aging sucks.
Ain’t that the truth.

I don’t see eye to eye with out biologists assessment +40% of the time. We sent some incisors off last year for the annular test. Got the results back which were vastly different than his assessment.

His answer was to discredit the testing of the annular. Said if you are only paying $20-$30 a tooth for results, you ‘get what you pay for’. Thing is, in no st cases, he wasn’t off 1 year from this testing, but multiple years on what classify as mature deer.

Well, the MLDP is ‘free’, and he comes along with it, so I don’t know what to say.

Last edited by Greenheadless; 12-23-2018 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 12-23-2018, 04:58 PM   #13
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Good article.

https://www.ckwri.tamuk.edu/sites/de...r-fall2010.pdf
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Old 12-23-2018, 04:59 PM   #14
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Looks 4.5 to me
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Old 12-23-2018, 05:30 PM   #15
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4-6 depending
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Old 12-26-2018, 01:51 PM   #16
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Guessing middle aged. Still pretty sharp crests.
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Old 12-26-2018, 03:51 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Greenheadless View Post
Ain’t that the truth.

I don’t see eye to eye with out biologists assessment +40% of the time. We sent some incisors off last year for the annular test. Got the results back which were vastly different than his assessment.

His answer was to discredit the testing of the annular. Said if you are only paying $20-$30 a tooth for results, you ‘get what you pay for’. Thing is, in no st cases, he wasn’t off 1 year from this testing, but multiple years on what classify as mature deer.

Well, the MLDP is ‘free’, and he comes along with it, so I don’t know what to say.
I let a kid shot a deer this year that i know for absolute sure was8.5. His teeth looked 6.5 to me . Three "experts"" were confident he was 4.5. Couldnt convince them any different either. Wouldnt that have sucked if it was a lease requiring 5.5 or older?
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Old 12-26-2018, 04:13 PM   #18
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We had a member on are lease that killed a deer that was known to be at least 5.5 and his teeth showed 3.5.
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:23 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Greenheadless View Post
Need more info. Where taken? On protein? Terrain and soil types? Typical food sources? Have a picture of the other side as well?

Too many variables above that needs answers to even guess.
None of those variables are scientifically documented and should have no bearing on aging that deer based on tooth wear method. Well..except for having photo of otherside
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:40 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Greenheadless View Post
I can see 6 in that deer. On my east Texas place he would be +\-7. On my west Texas place he would be 4-5.

Tooth wear is in no way an exact science. Always good to pair with what the deer looked like on the hoof.
That is not accurate information on a regionally wide basis. Novice readers - please do not buy into this.

Yes, tooth wear is not an exact science. The Noble Foundation proved that in the early 90's, and Caesar Kleberg Institute has done the same more recently. What both of those studies have also proven is that the method is highly accurate for determining old bucks from middle aged bucks and from young bucks. Experts may only get 50-60% of exact age correct, but they get 80-90% correct in those 3 groups. From a management standpoint that works.

If, in a scientific approach, you developed criteria for all of those variables you listed, then isolated each, measured the influence of those variables on tooth wear, and found statistical significance of those variables, then that could hold water. However, to suggest using on the hoof criteria to adjust what you see in the teeth is backwards. If you're pre-determined, why bother looking.
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:40 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenheadless View Post
Ain’t that the truth.

I don’t see eye to eye with out biologists assessment +40% of the time. We sent some incisors off last year for the annular test. Got the results back which were vastly different than his assessment.

His answer was to discredit the testing of the annular. Said if you are only paying $20-$30 a tooth for results, you ‘get what you pay for’. Thing is, in no st cases, he wasn’t off 1 year from this testing, but multiple years on what classify as mature deer.

Well, the MLDP is ‘free’, and he comes along with it, so I don’t know what to say.
Same thing on our club.
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:42 AM   #22
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Yes, excellent article. All viewers who want understanding, please read the entire document.
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:45 AM   #23
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4.5
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Old 12-28-2018, 11:53 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
That is not accurate information on a regionally wide basis. Novice readers - please do not buy into this.

Yes, tooth wear is not an exact science. The Noble Foundation proved that in the early 90's, and Caesar Kleberg Institute has done the same more recently. What both of those studies have also proven is that the method is highly accurate for determining old bucks from middle aged bucks and from young bucks. Experts may only get 50-60% of exact age correct, but they get 80-90% correct in those 3 groups. From a management standpoint that works.

If, in a scientific approach, you developed criteria for all of those variables you listed, then isolated each, measured the influence of those variables on tooth wear, and found statistical significance of those variables, then that could hold water. However, to suggest using on the hoof criteria to adjust what you see in the teeth is backwards. If you're pre-determined, why bother looking.
Uh.......ok.

Because there hasn’t been a ‘study’ it can’t be true?
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Old 12-28-2018, 12:11 PM   #25
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Tooth wear charts could only be done if regionally adjusted. Im not guessing. Im speaking from experience of looking at the teeth of know age deer in East tx. Wild deer that eat soft vegetation and pick up acorns of straw and leaves wear teeth much slower than corn fed deer in bare dirt.

10 years ago, i could look at teeth and age a deer with great confidence. now i realize how much variation there can be regionally.
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Old 12-29-2018, 12:04 AM   #26
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Uh.......ok.

Because there hasn’t been a ‘study’ it can’t be true?
Scientific study is important. It takes observations, such as observed differences in regional tooth wear, isolates variables, and tests if those observations are consistent and predictable based on those changing variables. Thats deductive reasoning. The opposite is inductive reasoning, where an interpretation is inferred based solely on observation.

We don't need science to tell us the sky is blue, or water is wet, or that an egg will crack when rolled off a roof. But, yeah, I'd like to see some data that teeth wear differently based on all the variables you describe. My observations, as well as scientific tests, indicate that is not accurate information to be sharing with the hunting masses across Texas.

Aging by tooth wear has issues when it comes to splitting hairs, but it's pretty darn good at lumping. Lumping is fairly functional for management purposes.

Sounds to me, if you have access to known age and free range deer jaws from east and west TX, that you're in a perfect position to test your observations. Holler at a wildlife professor at any university in TX. They'll jump at that chance. I would look forward to seeing results as I always enjoy more education.
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Old 12-29-2018, 12:13 AM   #27
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Quote:
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Tooth wear charts could only be done if regionally adjusted. Im not guessing. Im speaking from experience of looking at the teeth of know age deer in East tx. Wild deer that eat soft vegetation and pick up acorns of straw and leaves wear teeth much slower than corn fed deer in bare dirt.

10 years ago, i could look at teeth and age a deer with great confidence. now i realize how much variation there can be regionally.
The problem with the regional thing, is that we still see the same variability in tooth wear within the same regions on known age deer. That's Panhandle, Trans Pecos, Hill Country, S TX (sorry, I don't get to E TX much).

Stupid deer just dont read the manual. But, again, lumping ages for management purposes works really well. If you're shooting bucks that have at least 1 dished out molar, you've done well.
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Old 12-29-2018, 01:14 PM   #28
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The problem with the regional thing, is that we still see the same variability in tooth wear within the same regions on known age deer. That's Panhandle, Trans Pecos, Hill Country, S TX (sorry, I don't get to E TX much).

Stupid deer just dont read the manual. But, again, lumping ages for management purposes works really well. If you're shooting bucks that have at least 1 dished out molar, you've done well.
I really dont disagree with much of anything you wrote. I have a friend here in East tx that has a high fence place where deer pile to the feeders every day because he carries a lot of deer per acre. their teeth wear much like west Tx deer.

Not many years ago, i would age deer for people by teeth with really great confidence. Now, after hundreds of thousands of pictures and tremendous history with specific deer, I am stunned how bad I would have missed aging them. ALWAYS older than the teeth showed.

These deer are wild, low fence deer that rarely eat at any feeder. I have also learned that East tx deer can live to be REALLY old. I would guess that they live to be older naturally in East tx than anywhere in the state because of the slower tooth wear. Right now, I have bucks that are 10,11, and 16(ish) years old. The ten year old has his best rack this year and the 11 year old had his best rack last year.

Once again, I dont disagree with what you are saying. I think what you are missing is what Greenhead was talking about. East tx free range deer..

Last edited by GarGuy; 12-29-2018 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 12-29-2018, 08:56 PM   #29
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Garguy, along the lines of what you mentioned, I don't recall, off-hand, ever seeing a known age deer who's teeth showed older than reality.

I killed a deer in Nebraska a few years ago. Biggest bodied deer I ever killed and obviously mature appearance in body proportions. Even the locals commented as such. Teeth showed 2 yrs. My experienced biologist buddy just shook his head.

But, again, for average management purposes, it works.
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Old 12-30-2018, 05:59 PM   #30
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Garguy, along the lines of what you mentioned, I don't recall, off-hand, ever seeing a known age deer who's teeth showed older than reality.

I killed a deer in Nebraska a few years ago. Biggest bodied deer I ever killed and obviously mature appearance in body proportions. Even the locals commented as such. Teeth showed 2 yrs. My experienced biologist buddy just shook his head.

But, again, for average management purposes, it works.
Crap like that would get you kicked off half the leases in texas.
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Old 12-30-2018, 06:36 PM   #31
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Crap like that would get you kicked off half the leases in texas.
Yeah, that's a shame. I want to kill a big old deer as much as the next guy, but really, I hate it's come to that.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:20 PM   #32
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There is only one way to know the exact age of deer. Watch him from birth.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:46 PM   #33
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Starting last year, I have kept photo logs on known deer, trying to help classify deer +/- 1 year so when we kill them, we have photo evidence to indicate at least somewhat accurate age based on the photos. The problem is that it will take 4-5 years to see this through, being patient has been testing.
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:37 PM   #34
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According to this, that deer would be 5.5

https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/...w7000_0755.pdf
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:44 PM   #35
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There is only one way to know the exact age of deer. Watch him from birth.
Yep and then like at his or her teeth a say WHAAAAAAT? No way.....
Been there..
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:34 PM   #36
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Starting last year, I have kept photo logs on known deer, trying to help classify deer +/- 1 year so when we kill them, we have photo evidence to indicate at least somewhat accurate age based on the photos. The problem is that it will take 4-5 years to see this through, being patient has been testing.
We have found that trail pics alone are tough, seeing the deer on the hoof is a much better judge.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:00 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenheadless View Post
We have found that trail pics alone are tough, seeing the deer on the hoof is a much better judge.
I have hours of video to go along with trail cam pics. Trail cam pics have seemed to help me identify deer from year to year a lot better than seeing them on the hoof. Scars, ear tears, facial spots all have been used to help me identify deer from one year to the next. Again, not exact science like everyone has stated above, I'm just confident that I can tell them within a year or so from the combination of trail cam pics, footage, and seeing them on the hoof within a year or so.

You can't open their mouth when they are alive, and apparently opening their mouth when they are dead has been proven to be inaccurate as well. History with known deer (trail cam pics, video footage,) to me, is the best way to come as close as you can at guesstimating their age.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:12 PM   #38
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I agree.
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:15 PM   #39
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I had a rancher tell me this last year while hunting at his place. When trying to age a dead deer there is only one thing for certain.......... This is as old as he is ever going to get lol.
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Old 01-12-2019, 04:21 AM   #40
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Most know that aging teeth is not always accurate lots af variables determine tooth wear. Those teeth show 5.5 based on tooth aging info available. Just aging the teeth on wear as asked I would call it a good example of 5.5. Just a tool, always good to know your herd.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:06 PM   #41
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Quote:
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According to this, that deer would be 5.5

https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/...w7000_0755.pdf
Yes.
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