Looking for some advice on Deer Management

[Stickboy97]

About our lease, we got on it 5 years ago and it was almost shot out. The first year we only shot culls (deer missing 1 or 2 brow tines) and does. It is in Uvalde Co and we hunt 4500 acres, low fence. It is bordered on 2 sides by a large high fence ranch, one side by a low fence 15000 acre ranch & to the south of us hwy 90. Also, it's a working goat ranch.
Because it's a working ranch we have water year round, plus we have a few small ponds that hold water. We generally feed year round and a few of us protein year round as well. Great, beautiful lease.

So for 5 years we've been trying to get the #of deer up as well as the size/age. The last 3 years it seems we see tons of awesome 3.5 yr old bucks and let them walk. Only to never see them again. We almost never see 4.5+ year old bucks.

This year the young deer crop was insane. Tons of 1.5 - 2.5 yr old 8+ bucks and as usual a lot of 3.5 yr old bucks as well.

So my question is, where are all the older bucks going? Do they stay away from all the younger bucks? Should we be culling some of the younger deer? We also have a ton of does, she we be culling more of them... they are all young as well.

What else should we be doing to manage the place? A lot of people are getting tired of only seeing 3.5 yr old deer and passing on them year after year.

thx

[Crazy Horse]

Do not shoot ANY does....how are you going to raise deer numbers other wise? If you're shooting does, you're just spinning your wheels...(IMO shoot a young buck rather than your mature does)

You're older bucks are just simply limiting their domain...as your population increases, so will frequent mature deer sightings...right now they are not forced to move...

Just hold tight and stay the course...it'll pay off in the long run...
(been there - done that)

[Sippy]

First, if you are getting on a lease in a "shot out" area, culling should be the last thing on your mind. Why kill off bucks when you have very few to begin with?

Goats and deer do not mix. They are very competitive. I would make sure you have protein available all year and at least one feeder per 250 acres.

Are you still culling? If so that could explain your low numbers of mature deer. If not, your neighbors are killing off your bucks as soon as they develop a decent set of antlers. You should not be culling at all if you are not seeing mature bucks, period.

It sounds like you need to have a biologist come out and look over the place.

[Stickboy97]

An example at my stand in one morning sitting, I'll see no less than 20 deer. Usually 12 or so does & 8 or so bucks. All 3.5 and younger. We cull the deer we do not want breeding (missing brows & older spikes), the numbers of deer are through the roof, just not any older bucks.

The first year you might see 2-3 deer over the same time span.

With this many does, do we have too many? Is there just no reason for the big boys to travel? Do they avoid the young bucks?

The total ranch is 9000 acres for the goats & they rotate them year round. This year during hunting season we never had goats on our half of the ranch.

We have spoken to the other spot holders on the other 4500 acres and they are management minded hunters as well. The 15000 to the East is hardly hunted, its a company lease & they hunt opening weekend only.

[Crazy Horse]

have yall had a deer survey conducted?
just because you have tons of deer coming to the feeder, does not translate to tons of deer over the entire property...

I still say you are not seeing mature bucks because of over all low deer numbers...but I'm no biologist...

[Sippy]

Do surveys to figure out what you actually have.
Get your nutrition correct.
Get your Buck/Doe ratio in check.

Once all of this is done, cull if you think it is necessary. The least of your concerns right now should be culling.

[Dudley]

First thing to do is determine what is happening to your 3 1/2 yr old deer. Best way to do that is with a cameral survey in late summer to get an idea of your age structure, including mature deer. Either someone else is killing your mature deer or they are still there and have changed their habits now that they are older and you just aren't seeing them. Put cameras on protein sites and also on water troughs. If mature deer are on your property, this will tell you. If they aren't, then you need to figure out who is killing them (neighbor, poacher, landowner...)

[Stickboy97]

Not sure if the ranch owner will allow us to do an aerial survey, but we can ask. We could put the cameras out on the water, but there are probably 20-30 water sources. But that is a great idea. We are going to change some of our protein feeders this year to not be any where near corn feeders and we will camera those.

As for the numbers, when you have 10 hunters in one morning spread out over 4500 acres and all of you see 10+ deer in 1 morning hunt (some more then 20), I'd say our numbers are way up. Not saying we are over populated, but our numbers are pretty good (I think).

Are mature deer turned off by young deer? Do they avoid them?

As for the culling, like I mentioned we are taking deer we don't want to reproduce. Also, it is hard to convince 10 hunters to pay what we pay and never shoot deer. So we do what we can to help the numbers increase.

As for #'s. I personally had 6 different 10 point bucks at my stand last year that were 3.5 (or so I think). None of those bucks were shot last year & none returned. I also had numerous 8 pt bucks, and didn't see any of them return this year either. Other hunters have had the same thing happen as well. Where can they all be going? Sure some may have left the ranch or been shot by the neighbors, but not all of them. Several I have on camera for 2 years, then when they should be getting of shooting age 4.5+ they disappear. Do they change their habits that much? Go into thicker areas? All of a sudden avoid corn feeders? I just don't understand.

[Stickboy97]

How much is a biologist or survey?

[HuntinBilly]

On my former long term lease of 5,300 acres we did annual aerial surveys and blind observation cards for long term data collection, then compared aggregate data year over year to measure our progress. For several years we paid $3,500 each year for a private biologist to offer guidance after reviewing habitat, harvest records, blind observation cards and the results of the aerial survey. He had us track bucks by 1) Immature 2) Mature less than 10 points 3) Mature 10+ points and 4) bonafide studs (over 160 inches or thereabouts). We had lengthy discussions about spikes and his stance was that we should NOT shoot any buck less than 3.5 years. He said it was more of a question of how may deer we wanted to feed, if we felt we had too many deer then he recommended we harvest back to a 1 to 1 ratio. What we ended up with was a pasture full of 135 inch eight and nine pointers, which made everyone pretty happy to harvest. He said if we just had to shoot a deer, leave the spikes alone and shoot 3.5 year olds that showed the least desirable antler traits.

Every ranch is different, but those recommendations really paid off for our group.

[Stickboy97]

Did you harvest does? Ever have any really large bucks? Did your older deer run with your younger deer? How long did ya'll do this? We have plenty of 3.5 yr olds with poor antler growth and what we think is poorer potential.

Thats a steep price for a biologist.... not sure the other guys will pony up for that. Only half of us protein feed all year due to costs.
thx

[Stickboy97]

I don't doubt the older deer are there, just don't know where they've gone.

The info on harvesting is good. I think we should start shooting no younger deer, regardless of if they are spikes or what we call culls.

Still need info on does. We have lots of young does. Should we harvest some & leave the older does?

[perfectstorm]

Do y'all run cameras? Even the cameras show no mature bucks at any time during the year?

[unclefish]

My limited math skills tell me if you said the place was shot out 5 years ago...then the next year the great drought of 2011 happened with terrible fawn recruitment. So honestly I don't think it's realistic for you to expect to see 5 and 6 year old bucks when a whole fawn crop was wiped out in 2011 on a place that was already "shot out" when you got on it.

Game cams don't lie and should pick up any mature bucks in the area...if they exist.

[Chance Love]

"Older" spikes? I've seen two in my lifetime that were 2.5 or older. All others were 1.5. We don't shot those. Just no point in our situation. I'd lay off the spikes.

And I'd also bet some of these 3 year olds y'all are seeing, are actually older. Got any pics to share? From the guys I have talked to down south this year (I know you said Uvalde, but that's close enough to South Texas), mature buck sightings have been tough. They all saw a lot in the summer on camera, but few sightings during season.

And you mentioned 4.5 as "shooting age"? Man, they are barely getting started at 4. I'd go for at least 6 year olds, with waiting until 7 or 8 for better results.