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    #31
    I don't really have a dog in this fight but from my experience on the ranches I have guided and worked with, helicopter surveys have way too many variables to make your harvest counts from. Definitely do a second survey with a different method. For example, there is a guy in North Texas that does thermal drone surveys. Pretty neat stuff and the count is much more accurate IMO. May check into that.

    Also, you are ****ing into the wind if you don't have an aggressive predator control program in place. Again just IMO.

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      #32
      Originally posted by 88 Bound View Post
      I don't really have a dog in this fight but from my experience on the ranches I have guided and worked with, helicopter surveys have way too many variables to make your harvest counts from. Definitely do a second survey with a different method. For example, there is a guy in North Texas that does thermal drone surveys. Pretty neat stuff and the count is much more accurate IMO. May check into that.

      Also, you are ****ing into the wind if you don't have an aggressive predator control program in place. Again just IMO.
      Thank you sir. That’s what I’m here for to get opinions and learn.

      I’ve only flown once and that was last year. In that single time I could tell it wasn’t accurate just due to the fact how many deer we see on the ground.

      The ranch has a lot of potential I think.

      Comment


        #33
        Yep, my point exactly. You guys also flew recently, which is a peak time for brush density given all of the rain. Lots of deer can hide and not be seen in early Fall.

        I just don't think the cost per return on a heli is necessarily worth it all the time. Again, not a ranch owner just some input from my experience.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Chuckfu View Post
          Thank you sir. That’s what I’m here for to get opinions and learn.

          I’ve only flown once and that was last year. In that single time I could tell it wasn’t accurate just due to the fact how many deer we see on the ground.

          The ranch has a lot of potential I think.
          One thing you will have to remember on surveys is you are surveying what is on the property at that time. Not whats on it from the neighbors 2 weeks later, etc. I hear guys all the time talk about deer they didn't see from the helicopter and they did see weeks later. I really like post harvest deer surveys to go with pre harvest. You will really get better trends that way doing 2 per year.

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            #35
            What density do you or the biologist want it to be?

            If you want it to be 1:30 acres, that gives you only 120 deer on the whole place. At a 1:1 ratio, you would have to shoot 68 bucks and 57 does from this years estimated population. Is that what you want?

            Looks like his recommended harvest goal is to get your density in the 1:14 to 1:17 range. I didn't calculate that but just a general ball park figure. Target density is the question you need answered.

            As far as the surveys, no survey is 100% accurate. That is why $100,000's have been spent on research trying to figure what is best. Just survey the same way at the same time if possible and look at the trends. Is it staying the same, going up, or going down and adjust as needed.

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              #36
              Originally posted by txwhitetail View Post
              One thing you will have to remember on surveys is you are surveying what is on the property at that time. Not whats on it from the neighbors 2 weeks later, etc. I hear guys all the time talk about deer they didn't see from the helicopter and they did see weeks later. I really like post harvest deer surveys to go with pre harvest. You will really get better trends that way doing 2 per year.
              It's high fence.

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by BrokenJ View Post
                It's high fence.
                I missed that part originally. Thanks

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by Blackmouth View Post
                  What density do you or the biologist want it to be?

                  If you want it to be 1:30 acres, that gives you only 120 deer on the whole place. At a 1:1 ratio, you would have to shoot 68 bucks and 57 does from this years estimated population. Is that what you want?

                  Looks like his recommended harvest goal is to get your density in the 1:14 to 1:17 range. I didn't calculate that but just a general ball park figure. Target density is the question you need answered.

                  As far as the surveys, no survey is 100% accurate. That is why $100,000's have been spent on research trying to figure what is best. Just survey the same way at the same time if possible and look at the trends. Is it staying the same, going up, or going down and adjust as needed.
                  When you say that it seems extreme right.

                  I’m not sure what the target should be.
                  We have turbines and not all the property is usable brush.

                  I don’t want to base the number off “x” amount of protein fed. Or the number dependent on is feeding them. I would like the number to be based off natural browse with protein as a supplement as it should.

                  Does that make sense or is that not the way it should.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Chuckfu View Post
                    When you say that it seems extreme right.

                    I’m not sure what the target should be.
                    We have turbines and not all the property is usable brush.

                    I don’t want to base the number off “x” amount of protein fed. Or the number dependent on is feeding them. I would like the number to be based off natural browse with protein as a supplement as it should.

                    Does that make sense or is that not the way it should.
                    I agree, the amount and quality of the natural groceries out there should impact how much of the supplement they eat. Some guys on here have a high density of protein feeders on their places and it probably contributes to a large amount of the deer's diet. They grow great deer but it's about how much you want to spend in time and money to attain that level.

                    There really is no silver bullet that will tell you how many deer you have based on surveys or amount of protein pellet consumed. If you have a great summer with timely rains and there is a flush of forbs and tender woody plants growing like crazy, then I would assume consumption of supplement would drop. Too many parameters to measure to really know.

                    Just go by how the place is trending and the various harvest information you can take and it should help make your decisions.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      With all this being said I’d like to parlay this into another topic.

                      What percentage of bucks in your herds should be trophies or trophy worthy?

                      Our ranch is all native and has been high fenced. 7-8 years.

                      There are probably 4-5 deer we’ve seen that are in the 160s and 1 in the 80s. No tellin what is in the brush we’ve never seen. For round numbers call it 10. So 10% of our buck population.

                      Do y’all think that is a realistic number?

                      What if we did do what blackmouth said in #35. What if we kill 60 & 60. (Never happen by the way) what would that do? The worse Bucks scattered across all ages and barren does.
                      I know for LF it wouldn’t have an effect but could you change the mold on This HF?

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Fawn numbers seem to be way down.

                        Increase in coyotes? Drought maybe?

                        48 - 50 - 31

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by Chuckfu View Post
                          When you say that it seems extreme right.

                          I would like the number to be based off natural browse with protein as a supplement as it should.

                          Does that make sense or is that not the way it should.
                          Excellent! Your response saved me a lot of thumb typing as it was going to take some effort to counter the bad info. I continue to be surprised, and a little frustrated, at folks who will get on the Green Screen and provide responses that could lead the OP down a pointless, expensive, and possibly destructive path that does nothing to address the original questions. Sorry for the vent. Not all info provided was bad, some was spot-on.

                          Each man's goals to his own, but anyone can grow huge deer in the Walmart parking lot. But with your goal, the deer would only desire protein feed during the driest of conditions.

                          Since you've stated your objective, it will be important, for whatever pop estimate you use, to relate those estimates back to the degree of use you see on the top quality browse plants, as well as ages of does killed, changes in sex ratios, past fawn crops, rainfall, and how those things change and/or interact over a number of years. Set target deer density goals, shoot enough doe to reach that goal, then evaluate browse use and adjust density goal and harvest as needed. When top quality browse is being used but is also abundant and reproducing over a number of years, then you have arrived at your goal! At this point, you begin population maintenance and strive to annually remove the number of deer that are being added through annual fawn production. So, there's really not an annual harvest target of X% that works since fawn crops fluctuate with rainfall. Your biologist should be doing this and bringing you along in understanding.

                          I agree that using aerial raw count in S TX will be a significant under-estimate. This will create more deer than you might can handle. There's plenty of research out there on the matter, and again, your biologist should know this and be bringing you along in understanding. That's true if you're hiring someone or using TPWD.

                          You could kill every coyote on the place and still have low fawn crops in dry years.

                          Hope that helps.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Chuckfu View Post
                            With all this being said I’d like to parlay this into another topic.

                            What percentage of bucks in your herds should be trophies or trophy worthy?

                            Our ranch is all native and has been high fenced. 7-8 years.

                            There are probably 4-5 deer we’ve seen that are in the 160s and 1 in the 80s. No tellin what is in the brush we’ve never seen. For round numbers call it 10. So 10% of our buck population.

                            Do y’all think that is a realistic number?

                            What if we did do what blackmouth said in #35. What if we kill 60 & 60. (Never happen by the way) what would that do? The worse Bucks scattered across all ages and barren does.
                            I know for LF it wouldn’t have an effect but could you change the mold on This HF?
                            The Caesar Kleberg Wildlife Research Institute in Kingsville, in addition to de-bunking culling on LF, recently completed a 7 year study under several thousand acres HF. They captured bucks in helicopters, aged them, measured them, then euthanized those who didn't make the culling criteria. I thought this was a bit extreme giving it couldn't be reproduced through legal hunting. I don't know when that will be published and don't want to steal their thunder, but the only statistically significant finding was that it's a highly effective means of greatly reducing your buck herd.

                            You can't eliminate the bell shaped curve, but you can bend the average a little by simply allowing bucks to get good and old. Depending on subjectivity, 10% is lofty but reasonable.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by Top Of Texas View Post
                              Excellent! Your response saved me a lot of thumb typing as it was going to take some effort to counter the bad info. I continue to be surprised, and a little frustrated, at folks who will get on the Green Screen and provide responses that could lead the OP down a pointless, expensive, and possibly destructive path that does nothing to address the original questions. Sorry for the vent. Not all info provided was bad, some was spot-on.

                              Each man's goals to his own, but anyone can grow huge deer in the Walmart parking lot. But with your goal, the deer would only desire protein feed during the driest of conditions.

                              Since you've stated your objective, it will be important, for whatever pop estimate you use, to relate those estimates back to the degree of use you see on the top quality browse plants, as well as ages of does killed, changes in sex ratios, past fawn crops, rainfall, and how those things change and/or interact over a number of years. Set target deer density goals, shoot enough doe to reach that goal, then evaluate browse use and adjust density goal and harvest as needed. When top quality browse is being used but is also abundant and reproducing over a number of years, then you have arrived at your goal! At this point, you begin population maintenance and strive to annually remove the number of deer that are being added through annual fawn production. So, there's really not an annual harvest target of X% that works since fawn crops fluctuate with rainfall. Your biologist should be doing this and bringing you along in understanding.

                              I agree that using aerial raw count in S TX will be a significant under-estimate. This will create more deer than you might can handle. There's plenty of research out there on the matter, and again, your biologist should know this and be bringing you along in understanding. That's true if you're hiring someone or using TPWD.

                              You could kill every coyote on the place and still have low fawn crops in dry years.

                              Hope that helps.
                              Thank you sir
                              I was hoping you would chime in on this

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Well we met with the biologist and LO to discuss everything. I had all my ducks in a row I thought. Brought print outs of about 20 deer that frequent protein feeders. Half being deer with potential and the others being deer we felt should be harvested. Did a vegetation break down breaking down open areas vs brush. Provided a management plan as well.

                                The land could support 1 adult deer per 20 acres per the biologist. He elected to increase it to 1:15 due to the feed.
                                One thing I learned from it was he said the open areas could support as many deer due to Forbes and such.
                                He said no matter what we did we would always have these deer that wouldn’t be trophy caliber. He estimated 3% would be trophy caliber, in our case that is 180+.

                                He recommended more feed stations and possibly switching feeds.

                                Seen a few coyotes couldn’t get shots ever but I do think we have an issue there.

                                Close the book on it I guess.

                                Comment

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