Cattle Guy Overgrazing Property

[Benno]

Originally Posted by squirrel

Its 100 acres and right now its 9 heifers, and 1 bull, but he just sold off I think 8 calves. Its an older guy so I am compassionate to an extent, but I think that effects his thoughts on future leasing opportunities. I have documented correspondence, just looking for what levers I can pull. I thought the water was pretty reasonable (there is still a large tank) versus say taking my gates off for repairs.

The above tells me you wouldn’t know if he was overgrazing and without even knowing the price, you’re overcharging him.

Originally Posted by texansfan

Every county from Carthage to Texarkana it's 1 head per acre.
What county is your pasture in?

Shhhhhhhh. It’s ok not to know something and listen.

[oktx]

Isn’t almost everyone feeding hay now?

[dclifton]

Sounds like you shouldn’t charge him a thing and be glad you got an ag exemption.

10 pairs on a lease ain’t wort any cattleman’s headache. Unless it’s within spitting distance of his house.

And even then it would just be a convenience thing to break off some cows to put with a special bull to raise some replacements or a place to raise yearlings maybe...

Just being honest..

[TeamAmerica]

sure is some fuzzy math reading through this. we need some FACTS to help you!

[texansfan]

Originally Posted by Benno

The above tells me you wouldn’t know if he was overgrazing and without even knowing the price, you’re overcharging him.





Shhhhhhhh. It’s ok not to know something and listen.

I was shocked when I heard that too
Been hearing it for years

[Fmjag64]

Lol starting to feel bad for the poor old rancher now. Sign a 5 year grazing lease on a place in ETX that apparently won’t even hold 10 cows and 2nd year in, LO mentioning to “cut off water” or “take off gates for repairs” if he doesn’t take more off.

[jds247]

Originally Posted by texansfan

I was shocked when I heard that too
Been hearing it for years

It's even worse the farther south east you get.. there's a guy down the road from me with 10 cows and a bull on 5 acres.. basically a feed lot.. feeds hay year round.

[TacticalCowboy]

Originally Posted by Lone_Wolf

That's baloney

How so?

[Banded Drake Calls]

I have a hard time seeing how 10 head on 100 acres is over grazing it, even if 9 of them had a calf with them before. Unless the majority of this property is all thick brush and no grass. As far as feeding hay, it's winter time, a lot of ranchers are feeding hay this time of year. That's the point of spending all spring and summer rolling it up. Grasses go dormant this time of year and lack in growth and nutrition, hay supplements what the ground isn't doing in the winter.

So what evidence has made you believe for the last 6 months or more that it's being over grazed? To me if you don't think this property can handle the few head, you shouldn't even be charging anyone to graze it. Pull the contract, remove the livestock get rid of your ag exemption and just hunt it. That or spend some money clearing it and improving it so that it will hold 15-20 head with no problems, as it should

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[squirrel]

I had it in Wildlife before Ag and NRCS said 15-20 acres per head is right. The rancher agrees he is overgrazing, he has flat out said he thinks he has me since I didnt limit the head count in the lease. There isnt much grass on the place at all, mainly trees and scrub brush. Appreciate the comments.

[Flint knapper]

You live and you learn! The only thing you can really do is to either not lease to the guy in the future, and to state in the contract how many head of beef that will be allowed on the property for a given year!

[DuramaxDude]

Originally Posted by Puncher51

All depends on type of vegetation, previous management, tree/brush cover, topography, etc.

^^^^ This and rain fall!! The old "this is an X number of head per acre county" is not always the best management decision to make.

[DuramaxDude]

Originally Posted by Puncher51

If he’s regularly feeding hay then he’s overstocked. If he’s overstocked then he’s depleting the resource.

^^^^ Agreed

[DuramaxDude]

Originally Posted by squirrel

I had it in Wildlife before Ag and NRCS said 15-20 acres per head is right. The rancher agrees he is overgrazing, he has flat out said he thinks he has me since I didnt limit the head count in the lease. There isnt much grass on the place at all, mainly trees and scrub brush. Appreciate the comments.

Sounds like you have your answer there.

[Take em]

I will buy the property from you for $1 and terminate the cattle lease. Then you won’t have to worry about it and the cattle will be off my land.


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[Deerguy]

You can tell not many folks know much about good livestock management on here. 10 head on 100 acres most definitely is having an impact to the resource, no question about it at all unless he is running many pastures and has a very intensive rotational strategy in place. And, that is if there are 100 grazable acres (which there probably isn't). If he's doing what most do, he's either continuously grazing it (the absolute worst grazing strategy), or at best, he's divided the place in half and grazes one side to nothing and then moves them to the other side (second worse grazing strategy). Stocking rate is not near as important as stocked density and duration in a pasture, but even at low stocking rates, the 2 grazing strategies just mentioned are very bad when considering the effects to the habitat, plant species composition change, and the overall effects to wildlife. Carrying capacity means different things to different people, and as a result there are different 'carrying capacities' for a property. True carrying capacity, the number of animals a property can carry without impacting vegetation health or causing species composition change is substantially lower than most people think. That's why its exceedingly rare now to find native stands of big bluestem, little bluestem, switchgrass, indiangrass, sideoats grama, eastern gammagrass, etc. While 10 cows can 'survive' on 100 acres, they can't do it without having an impact, which is what the OP is talking about. And, if you have to feed in the winter, you are either overgrazing to the point that you must provide the additional nutrition or you enjoy wasting money, one of the two. The entire goal of successful grazing management is to not have to provide feed at any time. Bison never walked around looking for a sack of cubes. The purpose of feeding is to intentionally carry more animals than the land will support.

[doghouse]

Originally Posted by Deerguy

You can tell not many folks know much about good livestock management on here. 10 head on 100 acres most definitely is having an impact to the resource, no question about it at all unless he is running many pastures and has a very intensive rotational strategy in place. And, that is if there are 100 grazable acres (which there probably isn't). If he's doing what most do, he's either continuously grazing it (the absolute worst grazing strategy), or at best, he's divided the place in half and grazes one side to nothing and then moves them to the other side (second worse grazing strategy). Stocking rate is not near as important as stocked density and duration in a pasture, but even at low stocking rates, the 2 grazing strategies just mentioned are very bad when considering the effects to the habitat, plant species composition change, and the overall effects to wildlife. Carrying capacity means different things to different people, and as a result there are different 'carrying capacities' for a property. True carrying capacity, the number of animals a property can carry without impacting vegetation health or causing species composition change is substantially lower than most people think. That's why its exceedingly rare now to find native stands of big bluestem, little bluestem, switchgrass, indiangrass, sideoats grama, eastern gammagrass, etc. While 10 cows can 'survive' on 100 acres, they can't do it without having an impact, which is what the OP is talking about. And, if you have to feed in the winter, you are either overgrazing to the point that you must provide the additional nutrition or you enjoy wasting money, one of the two. The entire goal of successful grazing management is to not have to provide feed at any time. Bison never walked around looking for a sack of cubes. The purpose of feeding is to intentionally carry more animals than the land will support.

This is true to a point. Nearly every cattleman in Mills county has to feed hay during the winter. City folks that have bought land and not needing income run the least amount of cattle to get the Ag exemption. They have dead grass during the winter for filler, but must give them some form of protein to survive. I've seen this for years.

[dclifton]

Originally Posted by Deerguy

You can tell not many folks know much about good livestock management on here. 10 head on 100 acres most definitely is having an impact to the resource, no question about it at all unless he is running many pastures and has a very intensive rotational strategy in place. And, that is if there are 100 grazable acres (which there probably isn't). If he's doing what most do, he's either continuously grazing it (the absolute worst grazing strategy), or at best, he's divided the place in half and grazes one side to nothing and then moves them to the other side (second worse grazing strategy). Stocking rate is not near as important as stocked density and duration in a pasture, but even at low stocking rates, the 2 grazing strategies just mentioned are very bad when considering the effects to the habitat, plant species composition change, and the overall effects to wildlife. Carrying capacity means different things to different people, and as a result there are different 'carrying capacities' for a property. True carrying capacity, the number of animals a property can carry without impacting vegetation health or causing species composition change is substantially lower than most people think. That's why its exceedingly rare now to find native stands of big bluestem, little bluestem, switchgrass, indiangrass, sideoats grama, eastern gammagrass, etc. While 10 cows can 'survive' on 100 acres, they can't do it without having an impact, which is what the OP is talking about. And, if you have to feed in the winter, you are either overgrazing to the point that you must provide the additional nutrition or you enjoy wasting money, one of the two. The entire goal of successful grazing management is to not have to provide feed at any time. Bison never walked around looking for a sack of cubes. The purpose of feeding is to intentionally carry more animals than the land will support.

I agree with what your saying. It sounds great on paper. But very few would be in the cattle business any more if this was the case. Price of land and profit on cattle simply don’t pay the way anymore.

Our point is I’m sure they may be degrading his property now that we know how little is grazable. Which leads us to the point of the land doesn’t even seem worth the ranchers time.

Plus a lot of us over here in east texas want cattle to clean out brush etc.
that being said we primarily have costal and bahaia over here. So little different then most traditional native grasses.

LO squirrel you may want to consider going back to wildlife exemption. Since place doesn’t sound like it’s feasible to be grazed.

[dclifton]

Originally Posted by doghouse

This is true to a point. Nearly every cattleman in Mills county has to feed hay during the winter. City folks that have bought land and not needing income run the least amount of cattle to get the Ag exemption. They have dead grass during the winter for filler, but must give them some form of protein to survive. I've seen this for years.

Just about everyone I’ve ever talked to that’s actually in the cattle business and not just a hobby feed hay. I’m sure it’s the same for you to.

[tps7742]

I have noticed the farmers around here have been feeding hay for a few weeks in my area already.

[JeffK]

How much are you charging him per acre? If you want less cows out there, you should offer a lower lease amount. It wouldn’t be worth buying a bull to run on only 4 cow.

NRCS does not have to worry about breaking even.

[rut-ro]

I would not cut water off. Even though the are his cattle it’s your land and you could face liability for animal neglect if attorneys were to get involved. Sounds like this will be a lesson learned for future contracts.

[miket]

Originally Posted by doghouse

This is true to a point. Nearly every cattleman in Mills county has to feed hay during the winter. City folks that have bought land and not needing income run the least amount of cattle to get the Ag exemption. They have dead grass during the winter for filler, but must give them some form of protein to survive. I've seen this for years.

Im not a cattleman, but there is a difference between a bison surviving the winter and a cow you are trying to put weight on. Dead winter grass is not near as nutritious as hay.

In the end it seems just to be about the math. Should you have enough grass in the winter for them to survive? Sure seems so, should you feed hay to gain/maintain weight? Depending on hay cost, sure seems so.

[retrieverman]

Originally Posted by squirrel

Its 100 acres and right now its 9 heifers, and 1 bull, but he just sold off I think 8 calves. Its an older guy so I am compassionate to an extent, but I think that effects his thoughts on future leasing opportunities. I have documented correspondence, just looking for what levers I can pull. I thought the water was pretty reasonable (there is still a large tank) versus say taking my gates off for repairs.

Something here isn’t adding up. I have 15 head on 50 acres with grass to spare during the growing season. I’m feeding hay now, but I still have standing grass over 10 inches.

Shutting off water and draining ponds is a chicken sh*t move.

There’s much more to this story that’s not being told.

[Dusty Britches]

Does the contract state that the stocking rates must be kept at appropriate levels to prevent over or under use? If so, send him a ceast and desist order and eviction notice.

Also, for future information on land lease and grazing contracts, research this site: https://agrilife.org/texasaglaw/home/

Tiffany has a whole section and book on land leases that will help you a whole bunch in the future. She may be able to provide a list of land lease attorneys, too. They cannot recommend any specific one but they can provide a list.

[Gumbo Man]

Originally Posted by texansfan

Every county from Carthage to Texarkana it's 1 head per acre.
What county is your pasture in?

Surely your joking right? You ever run any cattle?

[texansfan]

Originally Posted by texansfan

Every county from Carthage to Texarkana it's 1 head per acre.
What county is your pasture in?

Originally Posted by Gumbo Man

Surely your joking right? You ever run any cattle?

Originally Posted by jds247

It's even worse the farther south east you get.. there's a guy down the road from me with 10 cows and a bull on 5 acres.. basically a feed lot.. feeds hay year round.

I don't own cattle or horses but know those who do and I hear things.

[Kong]

Originally Posted by Gumbo Man

Surely your joking right? You ever run any cattle?

According to that math we could sell thousands of acres and I’d be buying a new 50’ Yellowfin with quad Tripple Seven Marine engines I’d like to know his recipe for running a 1 to 1 ratio but maybe I’ve missed the boat the last 30 years and been doing it all wrong.

[texansfan]

Originally Posted by jds247

It's even worse the farther south east you get.. there's a guy down the road from me with 10 cows and a bull on 5 acres.. basically a feed lot.. feeds hay year round.

Originally Posted by Kong

According to that math we could sell thousands of acres and I’d be buying a new 50’ Yellowfin with quad Tripple Seven Marine engines I’d like to know his recipe for running a 1 to 1 ratio but maybe I’ve missed the boat the last 30 years and been doing it all wrong.

I'm not saying it's the correct way to do things
It's just what I've heard over several years

[Gumbo Man]

If you could run 1 momma cow per acre I’d get back in the buisiness and every cattleman could be making money. My brother in law owns 360 acres around Grapeland. About 160 is improved Bermuda pasture and he is running 80 mommas and he will tell you that’s too many but is trying to make a profit. And he really isn’t. And he owns the land. No lease fees

[bowhntrmatt]

I'm betting this thread didn't turn out like the OP intended.

Really just boils down to the land, and what it can support. We ran 30ish head on 100 acres of improved pasture land without even coming close to overgrazing it when I was growing up (we fed hay in winter as all the grass was dormant). But my deer lease out in Comstock probably wouldn't support 30 head on 500 acres, maybe not even 1000 without supplemental feeding.

[PoppinPiggies]

My uncle set up his lease to where the leaser pays per head per month instead of an annual rate per acreage. This allows him to have a say in what the limits are and further incentivize the leaser to not kick out a bunch of extras in any given month. Being out there multiple times a week helps maintain accountability, if you only saw your property during hunting season and a few times in between it would probably be hard to keep the leaser honest.

[Deerguy]

There appears to be a very broad interpretation of what overgrazing is, and a lack of knowledge on what it actually is (residual grass doesn't necessarily mean a property isn't overgrazed; vegetation structure, and both alpha and beta levels of diversity, is crucial to habitat health). But, livestock concerns generally outweigh habitat and wildlife concerns. And, as has been said, you can't make much money without overgrazing, especially in a lease situation.

[Dale Moser]

Originally Posted by texansfan

I don't own cattle or horses but know those who do and I hear things.

The dumb **** you hear in your head doesn't count.





If land in that part of the world won't support 1 head per 10 acres, it's not grazing land to begin with.

[Fmjag64]

Unless the LO is depending on the lease money, not sure why he ever leased it out for grazing to begin with. If 100 acres cant hold 10 cows, whats the point lol. Maybe the LO can get a cow or 2 or a donkey to keep out there and call it a day.

[Fmjag64]

Originally Posted by Dale Moser

If the land won't support 1 head per 10 acres, it's not grazing land to begin with.

Bingo!

[squirrel]

Originally Posted by bowhntrmatt

I'm betting this thread didn't turn out like the OP intended.

Not at all, figured a discussion would bring out a broad range of opinions.

I messed up by not writing in the amount of head into the original lease, but I made it very clear that I control the water. I have been very upfront with him that this isnt a card I want to play in writing and in conversation. Again, he agrees that he is overgrazing the land, this isnt only my opinion.

[Big pig]

Pretty interesting website.

I am also trying to figure out my best number of momma cows.

https://landassociation.org/how-many...for-your-area/

BP

[kf03aggie]

I would be very careful doing anything that could cause harm to his animals, like turning off the water or draining the tank. There are laws against interfering with agricultural operations. I would work with an attorney, the sheriff and the leaser and get him off the property. It sucks, but he has a binding agreement with you and you don't want to end up in the wrong on the deal. Best of luck.

[Backwoods101]

Originally Posted by retrieverman

Something here isn’t adding up. I have 15 head on 50 acres with grass to spare during the growing season. I’m feeding hay now, but I still have standing grass over 10 inches.

Shutting off water and draining ponds is a chicken sh*t move.

There’s much more to this story that’s not being told.

post #60 pretty much spells it out.
And just because your property will hold 15 head on 50 acres…there’s something missing? As stated several times on this thread, every property is different. The cattleman is taking advantage of the missing verbiage in the contract. I can promise you the OP isn’t getting rich off of the grazing rights to 100 acres.




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[jds247]

Originally Posted by Deerguy

You can tell not many folks know much about good livestock management on here. 10 head on 100 acres most definitely is having an impact to the resource, no question about it at all unless he is running many pastures and has a very intensive rotational strategy in place. And, that is if there are 100 grazable acres (which there probably isn't). If he's doing what most do, he's either continuously grazing it (the absolute worst grazing strategy), or at best, he's divided the place in half and grazes one side to nothing and then moves them to the other side (second worse grazing strategy). Stocking rate is not near as important as stocked density and duration in a pasture, but even at low stocking rates, the 2 grazing strategies just mentioned are very bad when considering the effects to the habitat, plant species composition change, and the overall effects to wildlife. Carrying capacity means different things to different people, and as a result there are different 'carrying capacities' for a property. True carrying capacity, the number of animals a property can carry without impacting vegetation health or causing species composition change is substantially lower than most people think. That's why its exceedingly rare now to find native stands of big bluestem, little bluestem, switchgrass, indiangrass, sideoats grama, eastern gammagrass, etc. While 10 cows can 'survive' on 100 acres, they can't do it without having an impact, which is what the OP is talking about. And, if you have to feed in the winter, you are either overgrazing to the point that you must provide the additional nutrition or you enjoy wasting money, one of the two. The entire goal of successful grazing management is to not have to provide feed at any time. Bison never walked around looking for a sack of cubes. The purpose of feeding is to intentionally carry more animals than the land will support.

Different regions have different feeding needs.. During the summer down here you can run 1 cow per 3 acres and still need to mow.. around December any standing bahia grass is nothing more than paper because of all the rain..
A cow will starve if you don't feed hay.

[sharpstick35]

Ive got a neighbor up the road that overgrazes sheep and goats. In dry years even the trees are bare up to 5 ft. though I'm not in east Texas, my area is notorious for overgrazing. It was a contributing factor to the die off last winter

[bloodtrailer28]

Originally Posted by Gumbo Man

Surely your joking right? You ever run any cattle?

You'll find out soon enough TF doesn't know Jack **** but it surely doesn't stop him from acting like he does.

[bloodtrailer28]

Originally Posted by retrieverman

Something here isn’t adding up. I have 15 head on 50 acres with grass to spare during the growing season. I’m feeding hay now, but I still have standing grass over 10 inches.

Shutting off water and draining ponds is a chicken sh*t move.

There’s much more to this story that’s not being told.

All depends on the land and amount of grazing which the op covered. If your overgrazing my place and I politely ask you to take some cows off and you don't....I wouldn't have waited 6 months for you to do so and I wouldn't be as nice as the OP has been.

[Burnadell]

OP, you still have not answered the question of which county this is in. You have asked for advice yet you won't answer questions.

Who prepared the lease agreement...an attorney...or is it a standard form?

It must be pretty poor land since most of East Texas is fertile and supports considerably more livestock than your tenant is running.

[Fmjag64]

Originally Posted by Backwoods101

post #60 pretty much spells it out.
And just because your property will hold 15 head on 50 acres…there’s something missing? As stated several times on this thread, every property is different. The cattleman is taking advantage of the missing verbiage in the contract. I can promise you the OP isn’t getting rich off of the grazing rights to 100 acres.

I don't think he is taking advantage of anything. This clearly is not a grazing property if it cannot hold 10 cows and if he's paying standard rate money, he's getting ripped off. The issue might be calling this "100 acres" when it sounds like there might be 20 acres of actual grass. Would be very interested to know what the rancher is paying annually. If paying standard per acre for 100 acres OR if he's paying a discount prorated per acre since apparently there's not much grass.

[Shane]

Originally Posted by Gumbo Man

Surely your joking right? You ever run any cattle?

He's all hat....

[Backwoods101]

Originally Posted by Fmjag64

I don't think he is taking advantage of anything.

The cattlemen admitted to overgrazing it because the OP didn’t have a set # of head in the contract


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[Fmjag64]

Originally Posted by Backwoods101

The cattlemen admitted to overgrazing it because the OP didn’t have a set # of head in the contract


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Not doubting the OP but two sides to every story my man. Also various opinions on what overgrazing is. My poor grandpa might've agreed too in his older age to avoid confrontation but at the end of the day if you pay for 100 acres of grazing in ETX and it wont hold 10 cows, someone got hosed.

[JeffK]

10 cows per 100 acres should not be a problem but not familiar with your area. He may be overgrazing depending on how you define it. Feeding hay does not mean it is being overgrazed. If anything, that will help keep the cattle from browsing in the brush. How much are you charging for the lease? Do you have it priced for a place that can only support a cow per 25 acres?

Remove the water and you will be the talk of town if not already.