Barrel cleaning

[RifleBowPistol]

Here are what those Final Finish bullets look like. The first four stages of bullets which are the abrasive bullets, you can feel a fine grit on the bullets, if you run the end of a finger nail across them. I weighed them, they are 142 gr. bullets, looks like they started off with somebody's match bullets, then coated them with some type of abrasive. Those bullets definitely have a dull darker coloring or tent to them.

The final ten bullets are the burnishing bullets, those are pretty obviously a brighter and lighter colored bullet. They obviously don't have the abrasive coating on them.

The instructions said to use something close to your normal powder charge, not to use a very light/low pressure powder charge. I was not going to burn up anymore of my Superformance, to get these 50 bullets down the barrel. I looked through my powders and all of my load data, and found load data for H414. I happen to have a very old can of H414, from years ago when I was shooting 308s and 22-250s a lot. There was maybe 1/5 of a can left. So I dumped 39 gr. of H414 in the cases, did not worry about being dead on the money. Some got 38.9 gr., some 39 gr., some got 39.1 gr.. I would suspect the bullet seating depth might affect how these bullets work on the throat. At the same time, seating depth may not make any difference I seated them about .025" off the lands.

I would like to get these down the barrel as soon as possible, to see how it's going to come out. Then shoot some of my existing loads down the barrel, to see how they shoot, afterwards. They say that the throat will be deeper and the barrel will open up slightly, so the gun will produce lower pressures and velocities with the same load you were using previously.

The pictures of the individual bullets are the 1st through the 5th stages, in order. I think it's number 4 that looks darker than the previous stages. Not sure why. They are supposed to start off a course grit and then each following stage is a finer grit than the previous one. I can't see or feel a difference in the grit. The first time I pulled one of each out of the box, I thought I could tell the courser from the finer grit. But the more I look at them, I can't tell any difference between them, other than some seem a little darker than others. Darker does not mean courser grit, a finer grit may result in a more denser coating of the abrasive.

The burnishing bullets are definitely shinier, brighter, but still not what a common copper bullet would be.

[RifleBowPistol]

I shot the 50 rounds of Final Finish bullets, it took all day.

I shot the first ten, then went back inside and looked at the bore and started cleaning. The barrel was horribly dirty, had lots of copper on top of the lands. It was difficult to get clean, even with the solvents I have now, it took over an hour.

Once it was clean, I shot the second round of ten. It definitely grouped tighter, with the barrel clean than before the first ten Final Finish bullets. It did not have the large wild group, like right after I finally got all the copper out of the barrel. Again, the barrel was quite dirty and had copper in it, but not near as much as after the first ten rounds. It was looking promising. It again, took over an hour to get the barrel clean, even with about half as much copper in the barrel.

I fired the third round of ten bullets, the group was obviously looking pretty good. I was not trying to shoot a tight group, did not develop any load, just picked a powder and charge weight and dumped it in the cases, did not even put any effort into keeping the powder charge the same weight. The first ten rounds I fired at the center of a used target. It looked like most were making about a 1/2" to 3/4" hole about 1 1/2" below the bull. I was not sure. So for the second through the fourth rounds of ten. I just aimed at the lower vertical line, below the center diamond on the target. Then put the crosshairs on the grid line 2" from the bottom of the grid. I used that for my aiming point, for three groups of ten rounds. I fired those thirty rounds, ten at a time, fairly rapidly, did not let the barrel cool. Interesting thing, the barrel was not heating up anywhere near as fast as it would have in the past. I planned on shooting five, pausing, letting the barrel cool, then the other five. But the barrel barely got warm. So I fired all ten, pretty much non stop, for each group of ten.

After firing the third group of ten, I found there was noticeably less copper in the barrel than the second group. But it took longer to get the barrel clean, possibly because of how I was cleaning the barrel, not sure. I was not letting the barrel sit and soak with solvent in the bore. I was just running a loose patch with solvent on it, then brushing and then a tight dry patch. Doing it that way, took over two hours to get the barrel clean after the third round of ten shots.

I shot the fourth round a ten and final group of abrasive coated bullets. Those thirty rounds fired at that one aiming point, most are inside of a inch, most are more like 1/2". I think the group could have been a lot better, had I tried and picked a new clean diamond to aim at. Instead of a fat vertical line, 2" from the bottom of that line. I was not putting much of any effort into getting a good group and was shooting pretty fast. What it did was pretty impressive. I was not going to even bother looking at what types of groups those abrasive bullets produced. But I had some curiosity, they did pretty good.

Then I went to clean the barrel after the fourth group and got a bit of a surprise. In the past, all of the copper was only on top of the lands in the bore. I never saw any in the grooves. Then after the third round, there were two lands with narrow copper stripes on one side of the lands, one of the left side, one on the right side. Then one other land, that just had a light patch of copper. So I was expecting the barrel to have close to no copper after the fourth round of the abrasive bullets. But it hand a light coating of copper on one side of the bore, in both the grooves and on the lands. It was definitely a thin coating. Don't know why it did that.

I went back to plugging one end of the barrel, pouring the Bore Tech copper solvent in the bore, then plugging the other end of the bore, and letting the gun sit for around 30 minutes. Then a patch down the barrel. That's all it took to get the copper out of the barrel. But it was still a decent amount of carbon in the barrel. I soaked the barrel with the Eliminator bore cleaner, then a patch. It got a good bit out, but there was still some carbon in the barrel.

I shot the final group of ten, the burnishing bullets. I picked the left end of the left horizontal line, on the same target, for my last aiming point. I again did not let the barrel cool, it did not get much more than slightly warm. I fired those rounds fairly quickly also. The only pauses were to chamber another round and a quick check of the barrel after five shots. Those final ten were under an inch.

The bore after the final ten, went back to having light copper on every land, only towards the edges of the lands, not in the middle. Overall the barrel was much cleaner after the final ten rounds. There was not near as much soot or carbon in the barrel.

I now know, this barrel will always have problems with copper fouling, but now, it does not make much, if any difference, if the barrel is clean or has copper in it. Then the amount of copper is noticeably less with the same number of shots.

I could possibly get some better results with another 50 of those bullets, but I am not going to try. They did a lot for the accuracy, in the form of I don't have the huge variation in accuracy, from a clean to a copper fouled barrel now. All of the shots, stay in a nice group. The point of impact does not move, as the barrel fills with copper.

The tool marks that go all the way around the inside of the end of the muzzle, seem to be harder to see. I think the bullets did a lot of what they were supposed to do, but some of the tooling marks are just too deep to remove, without removing most of the rifling from the bore. The barrel definitely does not heat up near as much as it did before. I think that is a good indication there was some pretty rough areas in the barrel, before I started.

I hope to have time this week to check the depth of the throat. To see if I need to increase the overall length of the rounds I loaded for this gun. Then shoot some of them through the barrel like it is now. With those, I am going to put quite a bit more effort into getting some good groups.

Hopefully I can get some years of use out of this barrel, before needing to replace it. Would have been nice, if the original owner would have sent it back to Howa, and got the barrel replaced when it was new. It definitely should have been replaced.

[RifleBowPistol]

This morning, I realized that had I not followed the instructions on those bullets and cleaned the barrel out, after each shot, they would have done a lot more than they did. With copper and carbon being packed into the barrel, the following bullets, were not going to be contacting the barrel, everywhere there was something packed into the barrel.

It would be like having a piece of steel, that has scratches on the surface, but there is a copper plating over the scratches. Then sanding the copper plating. Then adding new layers of copper over the scratches, with every pass, with the sand paper.

I may order some more of those bullets, then only shoot half of each grit bullet, so shoot five of each of the four grit bullets. Then clean the barrel between each shot. It would sure be nice to get this barrel to stop fouling so badly, so quickly.

The bullets definitely made a difference, but as quickly as the barrel as filling with copper and carbon. I don’t think the bullets really hand a chance to work like they should.

[fish4food]

Had a chance to shoot for accuracy yet?

Any improvement?

[El Paisano]

Man. That sounds like way too much work and worry. I have had to put in a lot of work to get the original grease out of the barrel before, but got it clean to the metal and just shot it. I will shoot a couple of hundred rounds before a good cleaning, with only a few passes with a bore snake in between. I don't worry about it until the groups start opening up, but than again, I am good with half moa groups out of a Ruger hammer forged and TC button rifled barrels. Some people like them tighter than that.

[RifleBowPistol]

Had a chance to shoot for accuracy yet?

Any improvement?

Other than with the abrasive bullets, no. But with those bullets, not much effort in shooting good groups. Never shot any of those bullets, just dumped a powder in the cases, then seated the bullets. No load development, just loaded them and shot them. It was very easily dropping almost every round through the same hole in the target. The hole was somewhere between 1/2" and 3/4".

Before yesterday, it usually it took some effort to get the gun to group well. Then that first time I got the barrel clean, the first 5 shots, the gun grouped horribly. The next five were better, but still pretty bad. By 15 to 20 shots, the groups had closed up very tight. After shooting the first 10 abrasive bullets, then cleaned the barrel out again. It never had the problem of shooting a large group, when the barrel was clean. It was very consistent on grouping, with a freshly cleaned bore or with a dirty bore. No shift in point of impact as the barrel fills up with copper, like the first time I got the barrel clean.

I am going to try to shoot the gun this week with the loads I worked up for the gun. I am going to check the depth of the throat, to see if I need to change the bullet seating depth. I really want to see what it will do. Really, it did pretty dang good, with the loads I developed for it, once the barrel filled back in with copper. I want to try to put an end to the fouling. I think at this point, the barrel is not fouling near as bad as it was before the abrasive bullets.

[S-3 Ranch]

I never have fire lapped a barrel

This morning, I realized that had I not followed the instructions on those bullets and cleaned the barrel out, after each shot, they would have done a lot more than they did. With copper and carbon being packed into the barrel, the following bullets, were not going to be contacting the barrel, everywhere there was something packed into the barrel.

It would be like having a piece of steel, that has scratches on the surface, but there is a copper plating over the scratches. Then sanding the copper plating. Then adding new layers of copper over the scratches, with every pass, with the sand paper.

I may order some more of those bullets, then only shoot half of each grit bullet, so shoot five of each of the four grit bullets. Then clean the barrel between each shot. It would sure be nice to get this barrel to stop fouling so badly, so quickly.

The bullets definitely made a difference, but as quickly as the barrel as filling with copper and carbon. I don’t think the bullets really hand a chance to work like they should.

I have restored some military rifles, and used some harsh tactics
But never tried fire lapping , any over the counter rifles I just polish them with blue magic powder, a military rifle IMO due to corrosive primers needs hand lapping
I have never seen a factory rifle need lapping to defoul the copper and carbon, so this thread has been interesting

https://www.ktgunsmith.com/firelapping.htm

[Mike D]

Other than with the abrasive bullets, no. But with those bullets, not much effort in shooting good groups. Never shot any of those bullets, just dumped a powder in the cases, then seated the bullets. No load development, just loaded them and shot them. It was very easily dropping almost every round through the same hole in the target. The hole was somewhere between 1/2" and 3/4".

Before yesterday, it usually it took some effort to get the gun to group well. Then that first time I got the barrel clean, the first 5 shots, the gun grouped horribly. The next five were better, but still pretty bad. By 15 to 20 shots, the groups had closed up very tight. After shooting the first 10 abrasive bullets, then cleaned the barrel out again. It never had the problem of shooting a large group, when the barrel was clean. It was very consistent on grouping, with a freshly cleaned bore or with a dirty bore. No shift in point of impact as the barrel fills up with copper, like the first time I got the barrel clean.

I am going to try to shoot the gun this week with the loads I worked up for the gun. I am going to check the depth of the throat, to see if I need to change the bullet seating depth. I really want to see what it will do. Really, it did pretty dang good, with the loads I developed for it, once the barrel filled back in with copper. I want to try to put an end to the fouling. I think at this point, the barrel is not fouling near as bad as it was before the abrasive bullets.

Have you always shot this gun using Superformance powder?


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[RifleBowPistol]

Have you always shot this gun using Superformance powder?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

No, it's the most recent powder. I tried H414, Varget, BL-C(2), Reloader 19, Leverevolution, then a few others. None of those produced the results anywhere close to what I was looking for. Superformance has finally got the gun doing what I thought it should have been doing a year ago. I just started shooting it a bit over a year ago, then ran out of bullets, had stopped shooting it, since sometime last year.


Last year, I never noticed the copper, but I was never looking at the bore, from the side. I only looked straight down the barrel. You can't see any copper when looking straight down the barrel. I also noticed, that the copper gets covered by carbon. Multiple times, I could not see much or any copper, before I started cleaning the barrel. But once, I ran a patch down the barrel with some solvent. Then I could see lots of copper. As much time as I spent the first time trying to get the barrel clean. I am sure that most of the copper I was cleaning out was there long before I owned the gun.

[RifleBowPistol]

I have restored some military rifles, and used some harsh tactics
But never tried fire lapping , any over the counter rifles I just polish them with blue magic powder, a military rifle IMO due to corrosive primers needs hand lapping
I have never seen a factory rifle need lapping to defoul the copper and carbon, so this thread has been interesting
https://www.ktgunsmith.com/firelapping.htm

In my 45 years of shooting, I have never run into a barrel problem like this before. I have read about a couple guys saying they had problems with a rife copper and or carbon fouling. But never thought much about it, until this mess. I really want to get this barrel to where it does not foul. I would love to have to only do normal barrel cleaning. I keep talking about the copper fouling, but there is carbon in the lands I have tried over and over to get out, it just is not coming out. Maybe being a stainless barrel, the carbon is much more obvious that with a chrome moly barrel. I think this is only the second stainless steel barreled rifle I have ever owned. The other is my Savage 9317.

[RifleBowPistol]

I have restored some military rifles, and used some harsh tactics
But never tried fire lapping , any over the counter rifles I just polish them with blue magic powder, a military rifle IMO due to corrosive primers needs hand lapping
I have never seen a factory rifle need lapping to defoul the copper and carbon, so this thread has been interesting
https://www.ktgunsmith.com/firelapping.htm

Interesting article. I will give that stuff a try.

[El Paisano]

Throw away the $@×& borescope.

[trophy8]

Y’all are overthinking this badly lol. Just shoot. Clean em when they start opening up.

[kck]

Y’all are overthinking this badly lol. Just shoot. Clean em when they start opening up.

I'm exhausted from reading... This is all that's needed. If the gun doesn't shoot then true action and re-barrel or sell it. I use KG stuff but the JB paste, some kroil and a few strokes will clean it. Run a few rounds to foul and go shoot.

[adam_p]

Y’all are overthinking this badly lol. Just shoot. Clean em when they start opening up.

I'm sitting here thinking the same thing. Probably doing more damage than good with all that cleaning.