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Old 10-16-2021, 10:19 AM   #1
RickBarbee
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I thought I was going to be doing something else today, so I didn't go hunting this morning. Plans got cancelled, so I'm setting here pondering things.

Thought I would share this:

Quite a number of years ago, a friend of mine, and I did some probing into how animals react to both bow noise, and how they react to arrows "coming at them" noise. This test also involved the banging of 2X4 boards together.

The probing/testing was specifically conducted on free range, and heavily pressure/wired Texas whitetail deer.

Without going into any great detail: In "every instance", the reactions of the animals were greater (much greater) to the arrows, than to the bows, or the board banging noises, and the reactions to the arrows reduced as we took the steps to quiet the flight of the arrows.

No, you can't beat the speed of sound, but you can greatly reduce an animals reaction time to that sound, especially if your arrows are quiet, and (within reasonable adjustments of course) as fast as you can get them.

Do it how you want, but listed in order of importance (for me):

(1) I get my in flight arrows as quiet as I can get them, which is pretty darn quiet.

(2) I get my arrows flying as fast as I can get them while staying in the 9 - 10 gpp window.

(3) I get my bow as quiet as I can get it, which is pretty darn quiet.

The primary reason I use plastic vanes for my fletching has nothing to do with the weather. I can shoot wet feathers just fine. It's all about the in flight arrow quietness, and the vanes are quieter in flight (by far) than the feathers are.

Stealth, and speed all rolled into one very lethal package.

Rick
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Old 10-16-2021, 12:18 PM   #2
tradtiger
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Thanks for sharing your insights, Rick. Have tried to do most of what you suggest above, and everything is pretty dang fast and quiet with that Weathers recurve and heavy arrows (right around 9 gpp), but I haven't really tried vanes. So happens I have some Beman 340 spine arrows with vanes that I got at Academy a while back. May experiment with those for sound and flight.
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Old 10-16-2021, 12:22 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tradtiger View Post
Thanks for sharing your insights, Rick. Have tried to do most of what you suggest above, and everything is pretty dang fast and quiet with that Weathers recurve and heavy arrows (right around 9 gpp), but I haven't really tried vanes. So happens I have some Beman 340 spine arrows with vanes that I got at Academy a while back. May experiment with those for sound and flight.
Ellis, I was only explaining why I use vanes, but not necessarily saying you need to use them.

Vanes are definitely quieter, but just the type & size of feathers can make a big difference as well.

Rick
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Old 10-16-2021, 12:29 PM   #4
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Agreed! Iíve watched enough slow motion footage of critters getting shot with a bow to convince me that the noise from the arrow coming at them causes more reaction thanthe sound of the bow at the shot.

And Ellis, the type of vane makes a huge difference in the ability to tune with vanes!

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Old 10-16-2021, 12:39 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
Ellis, I was only explaining why I use vanes, but not necessarily saying you need to use them.

Vanes are definitely quieter, but just the type & size of feathers can make a big difference as well.

Rick
Oh, I understand that. I can definitely hear the difference between various fletchings I've actually used. From loudest to quietest: 4" shield cut, 4" parabolic, 3" parabolic, 2" (cut like darts). Have kind of settled on the 3" parabolics. Still going to see if I can tune up those vaned Bemans for fun and compare for noise. Always fun to tinker with this stuff!
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Old 10-16-2021, 01:09 PM   #6
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Tagged for future reading
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Old 10-16-2021, 01:12 PM   #7
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So, have any of you guys ever used the short vanes, like Blazers ? Or are you using the standard long vanes ?
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Old 10-16-2021, 02:00 PM   #8
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I shoot Blazers on my compound arrows. Pretty stiff.

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Old 10-16-2021, 02:13 PM   #9
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Interesting thread. Seems to me that I read something a few years back that a study showed that some of the noise that the deer were reacting to when shot at with archery equipment was a whistling noise created by the broad head.

Are any of yíall familiar with this? Or have you experienced it first hand? Seems like the good old Muzzy 3 blade was the noisiest one of the bunch.



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Old 10-17-2021, 06:52 PM   #10
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Rick, are you using trad vanes or something else?
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Old 10-17-2021, 10:09 PM   #11
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Rick, are you using trad vanes or something else?
Marco Soft Vanes.

They are out of business now, but I have a good supply of them.

The Trad Vanes are good, but once you fletch them to a shaft, they are no more flexible than the Marco, and the Marco are way more durable.

The Allen (or Allan) vanes are very similar to the Marco. I've used them, and they work fine.

Rick
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Old 10-17-2021, 11:28 PM   #12
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Can you tune vanes to shoot off a shelf? Thatís the reason Iíve gone back to feathers. I could not get read canes not to slam into the shelf and kick left. Iím not huge fan of elevated rests.


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Old 10-17-2021, 11:47 PM   #13
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Kinda weird, the nosiest arrow should be far quieter then slamming two, 2x4s together. It must be the “ tone” or something rather then the “loudness. “ I feel a lot of their reaction is what people do immediately after the shot, movement of the bow, body , and yelling.
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Old 10-18-2021, 12:02 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by critter69 View Post
Kinda weird, the nosiest arrow should be far quieter then slamming two, 2x4s together. It must be the ď toneĒ or something rather then the ďloudness. ď I feel a lot of their reaction is what people do immediately after the shot, movement of the bow, body , and yelling.

Itís not the ďnoiseĒ itís the noise moving toward them. If a bird flies overhead and you hear itís wings you think ďthatís an interesting soundĒ. If the bird flies by your face you flinch.

I video most of my hunts because I like to see where the arrow hits. Without fail the animal does not react at the sound of the shot but when the arrow gets close enough for them to hear.

I really think that if you could completely silence an arrow deer would not react nearly as much.

Thatís not to say they donít react to the bow sound. They do. Itís just not the same reaction. If you need proof find a video where several deer are in the frame and watch how the bystanders react compared to the target.


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Old 10-18-2021, 12:09 AM   #15
RickBarbee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PigOPs View Post
Can you tune vanes to shoot off a shelf? Thatís the reason Iíve gone back to feathers. I could not get read canes not to slam into the shelf and kick left. Iím not huge fan of elevated rests.


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The short answer is - yes.

The long answer is - You have to achieve total/complete fletching clearance at pass, and you always need to shoot "cock fletch in" to do that, but even then, some shelves need to be modified a bit to get them good to go with vanes.

Believe it, or not - Hill style longbows are some of the easiest to shoot vanes from due to their narrow shelf.

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Old 10-18-2021, 12:13 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
The short answer is - yes.

The long answer is - You have to achieve total/complete fletching clearance at pass, and you always need to shoot "cock fletch in" to do that, but even then, some shelves need to be modified a bit to get them good to go with vanes.

Believe it, or not - Hill style longbows are some of the easiest to shoot vanes from due to their narrow shelf.

Rick

In other words, itís the width of my satori riser that is causing contact, not the crown?

When I first started seeing the idea of cock vane in it made no sense to me. But I now realize that the issue is with a vane slamming in to the shelf when Iíd always imagined the issue being a vane slamming into the strike plate.


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Old 10-18-2021, 12:17 AM   #17
RickBarbee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by critter69 View Post
Kinda weird, the nosiest arrow should be far quieter then slamming two, 2x4s together. It must be the ď toneĒ or something rather then the ďloudness. ď I feel a lot of their reaction is what people do immediately after the shot, movement of the bow, body , and yelling.
PigOps explained it perfectly.

The bow noise static, and is just once. it's intensity diminishes to nothing quickly.

But, the arrow noise is continuous, it's coming at them, and it's noise is amplifying as it does.

They really do know the difference between a static sound, and a sound that is something in coming.

I can give you an example of static sound from my this evenings hunt.
There was someone not to far from me to the south, that was shooting a fully automatic large caliber rifle. It was loud. Very loud. Much louder than even the loudest bow you've ever heard when standing right next to it. The deer never even looked up when it was fired off, and it was fired off a half dozen times or more.

Rick
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Old 10-18-2021, 12:34 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PigOPs View Post
In other words, itís the width of my satori riser that is causing contact, not the crown?

When I first started seeing the idea of cock vane in it made no sense to me. But I now realize that the issue is with a vane slamming in to the shelf when Iíd always imagined the issue being a vane slamming into the strike plate.


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Yes, it's the width of the riser, but it's an easy fix if you're willing to do it.
All you have to do is place a hump on the shelf, that is slightly taller than your bottom hen fletch, and that isn't much since the fletch is at an angle.

But, you want that hump to only be wide enough for you to comfortably rest, and keep you arrow on - think longbow shelf, or a tad wider if you don't shoot canted, and need the extra piece of mind that you're not going to twist the arrow off the shelf.

I normally just make my hump all the way up to the bottom of the berger button hole (if there is one), because if the hole is there it makes it an easy center shot adjustment. If not, you just adjust center shot with the thickness of your strike plate material.

My blackwidow bows never required anything other than a 1/4" bump under the shelf material, and they were good to go.

Some riser manufacturers (like CD archery) have taken my hump idea/design, and built it right into their risers from the get go.

John's Customs Optimus riser has a machined attachment for it, but I like mine a bit taller, so I do my own.

Cock fletch in works for any fletching. You simply cannot get better clearance than it gives, unless you go to two fletch oriented at 1 oclock / 7 oclock.
Or, bare shaft.

Rick
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Old 10-18-2021, 10:24 AM   #19
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My Martin Mamba came with a felt pad and a bump stick under it. I removed and went calf hair.
Different deer react differently. I hunted a friends place inbthe hill country opening weekend and though deer were so tense it was stupid. But it was so still you could hear a mouse f**t and any bow with any fletching or any broadhead was gonna get reaction.
The two I've shot at my place neither flinched until the arrow punched through. Little breeze, calm deer, close shots. 13 and 10 yards.
I've got nothing against vanes but I don't think they would benefit me enough at this point to use them.
As far as broadhead choice it would be great to always shoot a solid head but to get the weight right on the style head I like to shoot it would have to be really thin steel, like the shark line up from Simmons. And then they just bend too much.

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Old 10-18-2021, 11:11 AM   #20
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I just tried trad vanes, cock vane in, on my satori. They are flying like darts and noticeably quieter. May have to do a little testing.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5ReVUJ...ature=youtu.be

https://youtu.be/vBBPZMYTKOs

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Old 10-18-2021, 11:20 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PigOPs View Post
I just tried trad vanes, cock vane in, on my satori. They are flying like darts and noticeably quieter. May have to do a little testing.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5ReVUJ...ature=youtu.be

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Heh Heh.

Go Get Em.

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Old 10-21-2021, 11:36 AM   #22
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Here's a slow motion video of a deer ducking from a shot loosed at a distance of 75 feet.

The speed of sound is: 1,125 ft/s

Considering -

(1) the distance of the shot.

(2) the speed of sound.

(3) the point at which the deer reacted.

It is obvious to me, that the deer paid no attention to the bow noise, but definitely reacted to the sound of the incoming arrow as it drew nearer.

Link to video:



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Old 10-21-2021, 07:03 PM   #23
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My donkey doesnt mind me shooting my bow…when she is behind me. When off to the side or down (offset from) range…she goes away from my range quickly. Same with my cows, cats and dogs. Hearing a scud missle inbound to my locale would cause me to scurry away too.
Randomly applicable: My deceased WWII Big Red 1 infantry squad leader step grandfather with 3 purple heart in Europe once told me…to live through bombings…a soldier had to stop and listen to the incoming bomb. A soldier had to listen whether an incoming bomb was gonna fall short or long…there is a difference in the sound. Those who didnt listen and started running willy nilly were less likely to live…due to running to the bomb not away. I wonder if deer hear the arrow and take the time to choose to go up or down. Ive never seen a deer go up to jump my arrow but have heard stories.
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Old 10-21-2021, 07:25 PM   #24
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The previous anecdotal story and up/down jump quandry is the reason I shoot for a bit more center mass of lung. Im not quite the artist of martialing a heart shot.

Good push for hush Mr Rick.
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Old 10-26-2021, 12:53 PM   #25
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Thanks for the great info for a new bow hunter!
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Old 10-26-2021, 03:17 PM   #26
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This reminds me of the recent Meateater podcast I listened to. It was titled "The Archer's Paradox" and was mainly focused on weight FOC. Dr. Ed Ashby did extensive testing of penetration by various arrow setups which included thousands of videos of kill shots. The numbers of statistics that he produced were astounding but the one thing that really stuck out to me was this:

Amongst the thousands of videos of kill shots on a huge variety of game animals at different distances, they could not find one single instance of a animal NOT visibly reacting to the shot in some physical manner.

That was huge to me and I believe it tells us a lot about what we need to pay attention to.
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Old 10-26-2021, 03:50 PM   #27
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https://www.growingdeer.tv/?ep=462#/...unting-success

This video is kinda long but it shows clearly what I believe happens. The only thing I would change is that I believe the deer react more to the arrow sound than the bow but I could be wrong.
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