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Old 03-25-2021, 08:57 AM   #1
enewman
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Default Pass-through, is it needed?

I still want a pass-through. Just giving another way of looking at things.
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Old 03-25-2021, 09:11 AM   #2
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Me too. Arrows kill through blood loss and/or lung collapse, not through energy transfer and hydrostatic shock.
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Old 03-25-2021, 09:25 AM   #3
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I still think you should shoot the biggest broadhead you can accurately. Which usually means a mechanical, because most folks don't have the ability to tune a giant traditional head out of fast modern setups. It provides an insurance policy, and If you take broadside shots for the most part, you should still get pass throughs. I used to shoot the big Vortex broadheads with Hoyt vipertec. Bow's IBO was 300FPS, and I was pulling 64lbs. Most of the arrows ended up just under the skin on the off side, and most deer didn't make it out of site. And recovered a couple that I probably shouldn't have.

Will never understand the guys who are shooting blaz'n fast setups with tiny little broadheads like slicktricks etc. It's like making a surgical wound if you make a bad shot. You may get lucky and hit an artery, but why put all that energy burying your arrow 8 inches in the ground after it's zipped through the deer.

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Old 03-25-2021, 09:52 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by ultrastealth View Post
Me too. Arrows kill through blood loss and/or lung collapse, not through energy transfer and hydrostatic shock.
The arrow moving through an animal is transferring kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is what is doing the work. I'm not talking about hydrostatic shock. I'm talking about physics. It takes energy to push a broadhead through an animal. Do you want that energy wasted or use as much of it as you can?

From your statement, if that is what you got from the paper. Then I failed at writing it.

Thanks.
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Old 03-25-2021, 09:54 AM   #5
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I still think you should shoot the biggest broadhead you can accurately. Which usually means a mechanical, because most folks don't have the ability to tune a giant traditional head out of fast modern setups. It provides an insurance policy, and If you take broadside shots for the most part, you should still get pass throughs. I used to shoot the big Vortex broadheads with Hoyt vipertec. Bow's IBO was 300FPS, and I was pulling 64lbs. Most of the arrows ended up just under the skin on the off side, and most deer didn't make it out of site. And recovered a couple that I probably shouldn't have.

Will never understand the guys who are shooting blaz'n fast setups with tiny little broadheads like slicktricks etc. It's like making a surgical wound if you make a bad shot. You may get lucky and hit an artery, but why put all that energy burying your arrow 8 inches in the ground after it's zipped through the deer.
yes sir.
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Old 03-25-2021, 09:59 AM   #6
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The arrow moving through an animal is transferring kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is what is doing the work. I'm not talking about hydrostatic shock. I'm talking about physics. It takes energy to push a broadhead through an animal. Do you want that energy wasted or use as much of it as you can?

From your statement, if that is what you got from the paper. Then I failed at writing it.

Thanks.
you need to understand kinetic energy better, the kinetic energy of an arrow is less than most standard velocity .22 lr rounds,,, it is blood loss from cutting that kills with an arrow not ke, never was and never will be... and the energy to push an arrow through is momentum not ke,,,, ke has little to no killing effect with an arrow,,,

and pass throughs are far better than not,,, blood trails are most often better on the opposite side than entrance since most of us do not shoot level , instead we try to shoot from elevated as much as possible, and the lower hole is the one most blood pours out of,,, also an animal with an arrow still stuck in it tends to run much farther than one that had it pass through,,,,

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Old 03-25-2021, 10:04 AM   #7
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you need to understand kinetic energy better, the kinetic energy of an arrow is less than most standard velocity .22 lr rounds,,, it is blood loss from cutting that kills with an arrow not ke, never was and never will be... and the energy to push an arrow through is momentum not ke,,,, ke has little to no killing effect with an arrow,,,

and pass throughs are far better than not,,, blood trails are most often better on the opposite side than entrance since most of us do not shoot level , instead we try to shoot from elevated as much as possible, and the lower hole is the one most blood pours out of,,, also an animal with an arrow still stuck in it tends to run much farther than one that had it pass through,,,,
I understand KE very well. I also stated we always should strive for a pass-through. momentum is not work. momentum is how hard it is to stop.


I have a test coming that I'm proving this based on physics. by the way. physics states "two unequal objects but equal momentum the object with the highest KE will do the work. in archery, the arrow with the highest KE with matching momentum will be the lighter arrow. Now, I'm not talking about impulse at this time. only KE and momentum. Impulse will come into play if the heavy bone is it.

but for the most lethal kill the larger the wound channel the faster blood loss. meaning, a quicker kill.




Thank you

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Old 03-25-2021, 10:11 AM   #8
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Pass-throughs are handy from a tracking perspective too, though I get what you're saying about the energy/damage lost potentially. It's worth it to me to "waste" a little energy because two holes are better than one for putting blood on the ground IMO, but I also agree that it seems some people make too much of a deal about killing the top 10 inches of dirt or a tree on the other side of the animal they are trying to kill. I like a big cutting broadhead as much as possible, and a Spitfire *** or similar seems to do the job as long as I do mine.

I'm sure there will be a Ranch Fairy video link posted by the time I finish writing this hyping up 900 grain arrow setups and single bevel fixed blades
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Old 03-25-2021, 10:18 AM   #9
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Pass-throughs are handy from a tracking perspective too, though I get what you're saying about the energy/damage lost potentially. It's worth it to me to "waste" a little energy because two holes are better than one for putting blood on the ground IMO, but I also agree that it seems some people make too much of a deal about killing the top 10 inches of dirt or a tree on the other side of the animal they are trying to kill. I like a big cutting broadhead as much as possible, and a Spitfire *** or similar seems to do the job as long as I do mine.

I'm sure there will be a Ranch Fairy video link posted by the time I finish writing this hyping up 900 grain arrow setups and single bevel fixed blades
Ranch fairy. We call him tinker bell.
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Old 03-25-2021, 10:23 AM   #10
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Pass-throughs are handy from a tracking perspective too, though I get what you're saying about the energy/damage lost potentially. It's worth it to me to "waste" a little energy because two holes are better than one for putting blood on the ground IMO, but I also agree that it seems some people make too much of a deal about killing the top 10 inches of dirt or a tree on the other side of the animal they are trying to kill. I like a big cutting broadhead as much as possible, and a Spitfire *** or similar seems to do the job as long as I do mine.

I'm sure there will be a Ranch Fairy video link posted by the time I finish writing this hyping up 900 grain arrow setups and single bevel fixed blades
The last few years (5 or so) I went into the cup of Ashby kool-aid. I built arrows for pass-throughs. What I got was consistently no blood trails. I have climbed out of that cup. got deep into physics. With my study of Physics, I have found that sometimes years back we stopped listening to the old-timers and we got into saying momentum is what does the killing. This is not what physics tells us. So, I have really been looking at how we can get the archery world back on track.

One thing I'm leaving out is mass. we must not forget about mass.
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Old 03-25-2021, 10:30 AM   #11
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The arrow moving through an animal is transferring kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is what is doing the work. I'm not talking about hydrostatic shock. I'm talking about physics. It takes energy to push a broadhead through an animal. Do you want that energy wasted or use as much of it as you can?

From your statement, if that is what you got from the paper. Then I failed at writing it.

Thanks.
What matters is the work that an arrow/broadhead performs. Just because an arrow completely passes though the animal, it doesn't mean it hasn't done adequate work to kill the animal. I agree that, with fixed blade broadheads, you sometimes don't get great blood trails. That being said, if correctly placed, it won't matter. On marginal hits, expandables may be a better choice, because they do more work (tissue damage) than a fixed head. The problem with expandable is that you get more marginal hits due to lack of penetration when hitting solid bone. Shot placement is by far the most important factor, and everything else is making up for poor shot placement.
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Old 03-25-2021, 10:35 AM   #12
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What matters is the work that an arrow/broadhead performs. Just because an arrow completely passes though the animal, it doesn't mean it hasn't done adequate work to kill the animal. I agree that, with fixed blade broadheads, you sometimes don't get great blood trails. That being said, if correctly placed, it won't matter. On marginal hits, expandables may be a better choice, because they do more work (tissue damage) than a fixed head. The problem with expandable is that you get more marginal hits due to lack of penetration when hitting solid bone. Shot placement is by far the most important factor, and everything else is making up for poor shot placement.
Yes, shot placement. This is a subject that needs to be talked about more.
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Old 03-25-2021, 11:05 AM   #13
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you need to understand kinetic energy better, the kinetic energy of an arrow is less than most standard velocity .22 lr rounds,,, it is blood loss from cutting that kills with an arrow not ke, never was and never will be... and the energy to push an arrow through is momentum not ke,,,, ke has little to no killing effect with an arrow,,,

and pass throughs are far better than not,,, blood trails are most often better on the opposite side than entrance since most of us do not shoot level , instead we try to shoot from elevated as much as possible, and the lower hole is the one most blood pours out of,,, also an animal with an arrow still stuck in it tends to run much farther than one that had it pass through,,,,
ok, I see a wording problem. yes, the broadhead is what is cutting and what kills. The KE is what gives the ability of the mass of the arrow to drive through the animal so the broadhead can do its job.

thank you.
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Old 03-25-2021, 04:28 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Lone_Wolf View Post
I still think you should shoot the biggest broadhead you can accurately. Which usually means a mechanical, because most folks don't have the ability to tune a giant traditional head out of fast modern setups. It provides an insurance policy, and If you take broadside shots for the most part, you should still get pass throughs. I used to shoot the big Vortex broadheads with Hoyt vipertec. Bow's IBO was 300FPS, and I was pulling 64lbs. Most of the arrows ended up just under the skin on the off side, and most deer didn't make it out of site. And recovered a couple that I probably shouldn't have.

Will never understand the guys who are shooting blaz'n fast setups with tiny little broadheads like slicktricks etc. It's like making a surgical wound if you make a bad shot. You may get lucky and hit an artery, but why put all that energy burying your arrow 8 inches in the ground after it's zipped through the deer.

I shoot a slick trick standard myself. I guess the reason why I shoot a small fixed blade from my setup is because of the forgiving nature of the smaller heads. If my form is slightly off at the time of the shot itís not affected nearly as bad as if I was shooting a large cutting fixed blade. Of course thereís always the mechanical vs fixed debate. Iíve had better success with fixed, and I like a forgiving setup.
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Old 03-25-2021, 04:35 PM   #15
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Good write up
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Old 03-26-2021, 08:55 AM   #16
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I shoot a slick trick standard myself. I guess the reason why I shoot a small fixed blade from my setup is because of the forgiving nature of the smaller heads. If my form is slightly off at the time of the shot itís not affected nearly as bad as if I was shooting a large cutting fixed blade. Of course thereís always the mechanical vs fixed debate. Iíve had better success with fixed, and I like a forgiving setup.
Same here, no issue with the Slick Tricks. Mechanical is a band-aid for a poorly tuned bow or bad Indian.
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Old 03-26-2021, 09:01 AM   #17
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I still think you should shoot the biggest broadhead you can accurately. Which usually means a mechanical, because most folks don't have the ability to tune a giant traditional head out of fast modern setups. It provides an insurance policy, and If you take broadside shots for the most part, you should still get pass throughs. I used to shoot the big Vortex broadheads with Hoyt vipertec. Bow's IBO was 300FPS, and I was pulling 64lbs. Most of the arrows ended up just under the skin on the off side, and most deer didn't make it out of site. And recovered a couple that I probably shouldn't have.

Will never understand the guys who are shooting blaz'n fast setups with tiny little broadheads like slicktricks etc. It's like making a surgical wound if you make a bad shot. You may get lucky and hit an artery, but why put all that energy burying your arrow 8 inches in the ground after it's zipped through the deer.
Were you shooting aluminum arrows?
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Old 03-26-2021, 09:15 AM   #18
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I understand KE very well. I also stated we always should strive for a pass-through. momentum is not work. momentum is how hard it is to stop.
Quote:
When building an arrow for hunting, the amount of work performed will come down to the amount of kinetic energy the arrow possesses upon impact and the resistance being applied to the arrow as it moves through the animal. When we get a pass-through, the arrow still has energy. At that point, all additional energy is wasted.
So I understand the "momentum is not work" statement from a physics standpoint, but doesn't the bold part prove that momentum is a pretty important part of the recipe?

The one thing I consistently take away from a heavier arrow/fixed blade setup is that you don't have to worry so much when shooting the "v" with thin blades on expandables.

I'm not a kool-aid drinker from any camp though... I don't bite on the 600gr setups with 20% FOC or the 350gr setups with expandables that are constantly hanging halfway out of a 150lb whitetails ribcage. I like a an arrow with a little more FOC and somewhere around 450gr, and I really prefer a true COC broadhead. I know for a fact that with a sharp head that zips through critters, you get way less reaction to the shot.

Good paper though E...I always appreciate your posts!
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Old 03-26-2021, 09:17 AM   #19
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Were you shooting aluminum arrows?
Goldtip 7595's. I have a 31" draw length.

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Old 03-26-2021, 09:21 AM   #20
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,,, also an animal with an arrow still stuck in it tends to run much farther than one that had it pass through,,,,

That's absolutely not true. Those vortex broadheads, for whatever reason, just liked to stay in the deer. Most of the shots, my broadhead lodged in the off shoulder, or just behind it. 95% of the time the arrow was still in the deer when I recovered it when I shot vortex broadheads. Now I shoot NAP Spitfire MAXX and I get pass throughs and a big wound, but.....alot of energy is used cutting a big hole in that deer.

I wouldn't hesitate to go back to the vortex. Completely disemboweled a doe, cut every rib on one side, and completely cut off one leg, only thing leaving the leg connected was skin. When I was walking up to the deer, the deer stomach had literally fallen out on the ground.

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Old 03-26-2021, 09:28 AM   #21
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Same here, no issue with the Slick Tricks. Mechanical is a band-aid for a poorly tuned bow or bad Indian.
This is just a dumb remark... Not your cup of tea that's fine, but some people may just like the idea of very large wound channels. Personally I know that even with the perfectly tuned bow, and all the practice in the world doesn't stop crazy stuff from happening when you're shooting a living breathing animal. I'm a "bigger is better" guy when it comes to broadheads. They've saved the day more than they have let me down.
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Old 03-26-2021, 09:43 AM   #22
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So I understand the "momentum is not work" statement from a physics standpoint, but doesn't the bold part prove that momentum is a pretty important part of the recipe?

The one thing I consistently take away from a heavier arrow/fixed blade setup is that you don't have to worry so much when shooting the "v" with thin blades on expandables.

I'm not a kool-aid drinker from any camp though... I don't bite on the 600gr setups with 20% FOC or the 350gr setups with expandables that are constantly hanging halfway out of a 150lb whitetails ribcage. I like a an arrow with a little more FOC and somewhere around 450gr, and I really prefer a true COC broadhead. I know for a fact that with a sharp head that zips through critters, you get way less reaction to the shot.

Good paper though E...I always appreciate your posts!
it all matters.

over simplified= KE is what pushes the arrow through the animal. momentum is how hard it is to stop. I know a horrible description.

there are lots of people out there saying "momentum is what causes penetration" or " momentum built by mass will outperform momentum built by velocity" if you look into physics, both of those statements are false.

physics tells us two unequal mass, but equal momentum the object with the highest KE will outperform. this is an easy test to do. Not really but it can be done. and I'm doing it. haha. I want to prove physics using a compound bow.

now your post. I'm 100% with you. Thank you.
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Old 03-26-2021, 09:45 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Lone_Wolf View Post
Goldtip 7595's. I have a 31" draw length.


Cheater. hahaha
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Old 03-26-2021, 09:46 AM   #24
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Goldtip 7595's. I have a 31" draw length.

Well, that helps

Those vortex liked to stay in the animals because the blade angle was horrible. I bet your arrow was at least 450gr and with those ape arms youíre blessed with you still couldnít punch them through all the time.


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Old 03-26-2021, 09:48 AM   #25
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it all matters.

over simplified= KE is what pushes the arrow through the animal. momentum is how hard it is to stop. I know a horrible description.

there are lots of people out there saying "momentum is what causes penetration" or " momentum built by mass will outperform momentum built by velocity" if you look into physics, both of those statements are false.

physics tells us two unequal mass, but equal momentum the object with the highest KE will outperform. this is an easy test to do. Not really but it can be done. and I'm doing it. haha. I want to prove physics using a compound bow.

now your post. I'm 100% with you. Thank you.

Iím interested to see this test. I thought physics said the heavier object would be harder to stop, but itís been a minute since I picked up a physics book, thank God.


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Old 03-26-2021, 10:18 AM   #26
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Well, that helps

Those vortex liked to stay in the animals because the blade angle was horrible. I bet your arrow was at least 450gr and with those ape arms you’re blessed with you still couldn’t punch them through all the time.


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Yeah, they kind of chopped and sliced, vs more of slicing, which is more efficient. That's why I switched to the spitfire. They still put the critters down, and fast.

The deer seem to really not know as much that they're hit with the spitfire's, with the vortex, they knew something was TERRIBLY WRONG when they got hit
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Old 03-26-2021, 10:24 AM   #27
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Iím interested to see this test. I thought physics said the heavier object would be harder to stop, but itís been a minute since I picked up a physics book, thank God.


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A heavier object will. But I'm matching the momentum. What I'm looking at is proving that momentum is not what causes penetration.

My test will be with one arrow at 400gr +/-5. The second arrow will be in the low 600gr. Not sure where yet, trying to match FOC. To match would mean the heavier arrow will have less KE.

Looking at physics and the test follows physics, what I will be showing That KE is what causes penetration, not momentum. It will also show that most people say that momentum built from mass will out penetrate momentum built on velocity is wrong.

I don't care which way the test comes out. Either way, one side will be happy, and the other side will be ******.

The side that will be ****** will also be the side that will do its best to show that I'm stupid. But I already have them fooled. I already know I'm stupid. hehehehehe.
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Old 03-26-2021, 12:15 PM   #28
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The side that will be ****** will also be the side that will do its best to show that I'm stupid. But I already have them fooled. I already know I'm stupid. hehehehehe.



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Old 03-26-2021, 12:24 PM   #29
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I always want a pass though both bow and gun.

With the bow I want the largest diameter broadhead that will perform reliably, fly straight and be somewhat durable.

With a gun I want a bullet that holds together, expands well and reliably and is accurate to longer ranges.


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Old 03-26-2021, 12:43 PM   #30
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Default KE penetrates.

Imho.

There is a midpoint/sweetspot where an arrow gets too heavy and slows down too much so that it starts to lose K.E.

But a heavier arrow (say 450gr) shooting 275fps (75.6 K.E.) is still better than a light arrow (say 350gr) shooting 312fps (75.7 K.E.). Because of momentum, imo. Harder to stop something "heavy".

Simple test would be to shoot the above two scenarios into the same object and see which one pokes out!

I'm in no way smart so mho really ain't worth much, lol. And I may or may not be drinking already!

and FWIW, I shoot 440 gr @ 280 fps (76.6 K.E.). Fixed blade 1 & 1/4" cut.

Last edited by 12ring; 03-26-2021 at 12:47 PM. Reason: K.E.
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Old 03-26-2021, 12:47 PM   #31
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Imho.

There is a midpoint/sweetspot where an arrow gets too heavy and slows down too much so that it starts to lose K.E.

But a heavier arrow (say 450gr) shooting 275fps (75.6 K.E.) is still better than a light arrow (say 350gr) shooting 312fps (75.7 K.E.). Because of momentum, imo. Harder to stop something "heavy".

Simple test would be to shoot the above two scenarios into the same object and see which one pokes out!

I'm in no way smart so mho really ain't worth much, lol. And I may or may not be drinking already!
For a compound I have tested to a 1500gr. no loss in KE
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Old 03-26-2021, 01:46 PM   #32
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you need to understand kinetic energy better, the kinetic energy of an arrow is less than most standard velocity .22 lr rounds,,, it is blood loss from cutting that kills with an arrow not ke, never was and never will be... and the energy to push an arrow through is momentum not ke,,,, ke has little to no killing effect with an arrow,,,

and pass throughs are far better than not,,, blood trails are most often better on the opposite side than entrance since most of us do not shoot level , instead we try to shoot from elevated as much as possible, and the lower hole is the one most blood pours out of,,, also an animal with an arrow still stuck in it tends to run much farther than one that had it pass through,,,,
Agreed, nothing debatable but always interesting to listen to others hypothesis.
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The last few years (5 or so) I went into the cup of Ashby kool-aid. I built arrows for pass-throughs. What I got was consistently no blood trails. I have climbed out of that cup. got deep into physics. With my study of Physics, I have found that sometimes years back we stopped listening to the old-timers and we got into saying momentum is what does the killing. This is not what physics tells us. So, I have really been looking at how we can get the archery world back on track.

One thing I'm leaving out is mass. we must not forget about mass.
I can only disagree based on MY setup concerning blood trails. From little Texas whitetails to cape buff, moose, bison, giraffe my experience has been amazing. Look forward to seeing your results. Are you having it peered reviewed?
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What matters is the work that an arrow/broadhead performs. Just because an arrow completely passes though the animal, it doesn't mean it hasn't done adequate work to kill the animal. I agree that, with fixed blade broadheads, you sometimes don't get great blood trails. That being said, if correctly placed, it won't matter. On marginal hits, expandables may be a better choice, because they do more work (tissue damage) than a fixed head. The problem with expandable is that you get more marginal hits due to lack of penetration when hitting solid bone. Shot placement is by far the most important factor, and everything else is making up for poor shot placement.
Definitely mechanicals don't deaux well on bone.....again non debatable on multiple levels. Not sure what mechanicals folks are considering well made but blood trailing is not an issue....not even a concern.
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Same here, no issue with the Slick Tricks. Mechanical is a band-aid for a poorly tuned bow or bad Indian.
LOL........thank God the number of bad Indians is decreasing as the better shops are really working with customers.
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So I understand the "momentum is not work" statement from a physics standpoint, but doesn't the bold part prove that momentum is a pretty important part of the recipe?

The one thing I consistently take away from a heavier arrow/fixed blade setup is that you don't have to worry so much when shooting the "v" with thin blades on expandables.

I'm not a kool-aid drinker from any camp though... I don't bite on the 600gr setups with 20% FOC or the 350gr setups with expandables that are constantly hanging halfway out of a 150lb whitetails ribcage. I like a an arrow with a little more FOC and somewhere around 450gr, and I really prefer a true COC broadhead. I know for a fact that with a sharp head that zips through critters, you get way less reaction to the shot.

Good paper though E...I always appreciate your posts!
Just the idea that 450 has become normalized is a beautiful advancement in the world of bowhunting! I remember OVERDRAWS, thus if KE was the KEY we all would be using that system from the 80's.
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Iím interested to see this test. I thought physics said the heavier object would be harder to stop, but itís been a minute since I picked up a physics book, thank God.


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You nailed it and not much need for a book to think thru that. Would someone rather get hit by a ping-pong ball thrown by a MLB pitcher or a golf ball? Momentum continues down range at relatively the same force over a known distance. KE fades as it goes down range at the same known distance. Both have been proven long ago. But as always, I am open to reviewing new hypothesis and new peered reviewed sources. Full disclosure, I have 100% drank the Dr. Ashby Foundation kool-aid. Lots of folks with really promising hypothesis have challenged the findings but none have beat them. Most look for middle ground, which is fair enough. But positive attempts to discount the findings are non existent today. Debating the definitions of Kinectic energy and Momentum is a red herring from my standpoint. It is about what the total setup can do on bone and tissue of a big game animal. State based and global governments (always last to jump on board) are altering guidelines based on Dr. Ashby Foundation reports. Yes, also TPWD is adopting the guidelines as wounding loss in the state is a real concern......especially with the suburban mom! A total arrow system with a proper designed (structural integrity) broadhead on a tuned BOW is imperative, just no way around that critical aspect.
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Old 03-26-2021, 02:22 PM   #33
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Agreed, nothing debatable but always interesting to listen to others hypothesis.

I can only disagree based on MY setup concerning blood trails. From little Texas whitetails to cape buff, moose, bison, giraffe my experience has been amazing. Look forward to seeing your results. Are you having it peer reviewed?

Definitely mechanicals don't deaux well on bone.....again non debatable on multiple levels. Not sure what mechanicals folks are considering well made but blood trailing is not an issue....not even a concern.

LOL........thank God the number of bad Indians is decreasing as the better shops are really working with customers.

Just the idea that 450 has become normalized is a beautiful advancement in the world of bowhunting! I remember OVERDRAWS, thus if KE was the KEY we all would be using that system from the 80's.

You nailed it and not much need for a book to think thru that. Would someone rather get hit by a ping-pong ball thrown by a MLB pitcher or a golf ball? Momentum continues down range at relatively the same force over a known distance. KE fades as it goes down range at the same known distance. Both have been proven long ago. But as always, I am open to reviewing new hypothesis and new peered reviewed sources. Full disclosure, I have 100% drank the Dr. Ashby Foundation kool-aid. Lots of folks with really promising hypothesis have challenged the findings but none have beat them. Most look for middle ground, which is fair enough. But positive attempts to discount the findings are non existent today. Debating the definitions of Kinectic energy and Momentum is a red herring from my standpoint. It is about what the total setup can do on bone and tissue of a big game animal. State based and global governments (always last to jump on board) are altering guidelines based on Dr. Ashby Foundation reports. Yes, also TPWD is adopting the guidelines as wounding loss in the state is a real concern......especially with the suburban mom! A total arrow system with a proper designed (structural integrity) broadhead on a tuned BOW is imperative, just no way around that critical aspect.
explain that?

just going to make up numbers/

at bow 500gr 300fps ke=99.9 momentum is .666. downrange 280fps KE is 87.02 momentum .622 . Now that is a difference in KE of 13.78% and a difference of 6.83%. it should be behalf. 13.78/2 is 6.89. so close enough.

That means they are losing at the same rate. KE is not losing faster.
Now let me explain the half so we don't get confused. it comes from how we calculate KE and momentum. KE=.5*m*v^2/225218. Momentum is m*v. so because velocity is squared is the reason we see a 13.78 difference to the 6.83. but the rate of loss is all based on velocity. It's the same. it would be physically impossible to lose at a different rate.

If you understand physics, KE is the factor with mass. if you don't understand. all I can do is tell you to please research and study. might be helpful to go find a physics professor.

As far as Ashby. his findings are good. his tests are beyond horrific. nothing he did is quantifiable. it's easy to show.

I hope that someone in the tpwd gets their head out. Ashby's studies are only good for low-energy setups and at 20 yards. That is it.

Again debating KE and momentum is a red hearing in your book. It should be. As soon as momentum is talked about. People that talk about momentum have no clue about physics. It's truly sad. Our education department has failed us.

also, why would be using overdraw for KE. that seems foolish? If we are shooting the same bow KE will increase as mass is added.

thank you.

by the way you sound like a guy I know (ROB)

peer review. Yes, I am looking into this, but since you like talking about Ashby. His hasn't been peer review. It has been talked about being done. now it may have but it would have been in the last couple of years, and no information has been posted about it. if it had been I'm very sure it would be a high light on their page.

Last edited by enewman; 03-26-2021 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 03-26-2021, 02:28 PM   #34
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Donít mean to put words in Landroverís mouth, but he might mean that as you decrease mass to increase speed and KE, you loose speed and ke faster down range(because of the lighter arrow)?

Like all things in life, thereís a happy medium and a point of diminishing return. That MLB pitcher example is perfect. A ping pong ball is going to hit the dirt before it makes it to the plate because it looses all its KE/M before it gets there. A bowling ball will do the same because itís too far to the other end of the spectrum and it looses speed, thus KE(I think thatís technically correct?). A baseball is a happy medium.


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Old 03-26-2021, 02:45 PM   #35
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Donít mean to put words in Landroverís mouth, but he might mean that as you decrease mass to increase speed and KE, you loose speed and ke faster down range(because of the lighter arrow)?

Like all things in life, thereís a happy medium and a point of diminishing return. That MLB pitcher example is perfect. A ping pong ball is going to hit the dirt before it makes it to the plate because it looses all its KE/M before it gets there. A bowling ball will do the same because itís too far to the other end of the spectrum and it looses speed, thus KE(I think thatís technically correct?). A baseball is a happy medium.


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if so this yes he is correct. I looked at it as one arrow, not two. thank you.
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Old 03-26-2021, 02:59 PM   #36
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explain that?

just going to make up numbers/

at bow 500gr 300fps ke=99.9 momentum is .666. downrange 280fps KE is 87.02 momentum .622 . Now that is a difference in KE of 13.78% and a difference of 6.83%. it should be behalf. 13.78/2 is 6.89. so close enough.

That means they are losing at the same rate. KE is not losing faster.
Now let me explain the half so we don't get confused. it comes from how we calculate KE and momentum. KE=.5*m*v^2/225218. Momentum is m*v. so because velocity is squared is the reason we see a 13.78 difference to the 6.83. but the rate of loss is all based on velocity. It's the same. it would be physically impossible to lose at a different rate.

If you understand physics, KE is the factor with mass. if you don't understand. all I can do is tell you to please research and study. might be helpful to go find a physics professor.

As far as Ashby. his findings are good. his tests are beyond horrific. nothing he did is quantifiable. it's easy to show.

I hope that someone in the tpwd gets their head out. Ashby's studies are only good for low-energy setups and at 20 yards. That is it.

Again debating KE and momentum is a red hearing in your book. It should be. As soon as momentum is talked about. People that talk about momentum have no clue about physics. It's truly sad. Our education department has failed us.

also, why would be using overdraw for KE. that seems foolish? If we are shooting the same bow KE will increase as mass is added.

thank you.

by the way you sound like a guy I know (ROB)

peer review. Yes, I am looking into this, but since you like talking about Ashby. His hasn't been peer review. It has been talked about being done. now it may have but it would have been in the last couple of years, and no information has been posted about it. if it had been I'm very sure it would be a high light on their page.
How are you replicating the targets movement during your tests? Or are you? Maybe the deer you shoot don't move as the arrow passes through them.

I see that you keep reminding everyone that they need to understand physics but you are oversimplifying the interaction between the two bodies (arrow / target). You have omitted any discussion about collisions and the duration in which the interactions occur. If your target is stationary, and remains that way, there is no contribution of KE or initial momentum. I'm no physicist and am not discrediting what you are trying to say, but you sure seem to be neglecting a large portion of what all happens when an arrow is shot into a live animal, and the resulting lethality.
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Old 03-26-2021, 03:03 PM   #37
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I think Enewman is making the point that if momentum is a constant, higher KE will penetrate more.

We all know that the lighter object can start faster but it also slows faster. This is why speed is such a big factor in steel shot compared to lead.


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Old 03-26-2021, 03:09 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by quackadikt View Post
Donít mean to put words in Landroverís mouth, but he might mean that as you decrease mass to increase speed and KE, you loose speed and ke faster down range(because of the lighter arrow)?

Like all things in life, thereís a happy medium and a point of diminishing return. That MLB pitcher example is perfect. A ping pong ball is going to hit the dirt before it makes it to the plate because it looses all its KE/M before it gets there. A bowling ball will do the same because itís too far to the other end of the spectrum and it looses speed, thus KE(I think thatís technically correct?). A baseball is a happy medium.


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I like comparing objects. let's look at the ping pong ball vs baseball.
ping pong is 41.7gr. and the baseball is 2237.7gr. so at 90mph (130fps) that baseball has 84ft-lbs. so to compare the two we need to match KE. which means the ping pong ball would be traveling at 952fps. now let's match momentum. baseball at 130fps is 1.29 slug-ft/s that means the ping pong is traveling at just over 7000fps. that is 4484ft-lbs. what does that mean? if the ping pong ball is matched in momentum it will probably kill you where the baseball is just going to hurt like hell. haha crazy isn't it.

by the way, I just showed physics. two unequal objects but equal momentum the lighter object will have the highest KE and will do more work.

so which one matters KE or momentum. KE with out a doubt. pure physics
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Old 03-26-2021, 03:10 PM   #39
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How are you replicating the targets movement during your tests? Or are you? Maybe the deer you shoot don't move as the arrow passes through them.

I see that you keep reminding everyone that they need to understand physics but you are oversimplifying the interaction between the two bodies (arrow / target). You have omitted any discussion about collisions and the duration in which the interactions occur. If your target is stationary, and remains that way, there is no contribution of KE or initial momentum. I'm no physicist and am not discrediting what you are trying to say, but you sure seem to be neglecting a large portion of what all happens when an arrow is shot into a live animal, and the resulting lethality.
my test is a physics test. it is not on animals in the first part of the test. the first part is to teach people that KE is what is doing the work and get people to understand momentum is not. then I will start the second test. this one will introduce impulse. somewhere I will also show why we get gain as we add mass and show that some manufactures are getting to a point that we are seeing almost no gain increasing mass. bows are getting very efficient now.

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Old 03-26-2021, 03:44 PM   #40
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I am by no means a physics expert, so please correct me if I am wrong. I am not understanding why KE is important but not momentum. I thought KE is the amount of energy carried by the arrow. Momentum is a vector, ie, the KE exerted in a specific direction. Is this not the case?
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Old 03-26-2021, 04:05 PM   #41
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I am by no means a physics expert, so please correct me if I am wrong. I am not understanding why KE is important but not momentum. I thought KE is the amount of energy carried by the arrow. Momentum is a vector, ie, the KE exerted in a specific direction. Is this not the case?
Both are important. As long as the arrow is moving, it has both. It will have both till the arrow stops. Ke energy is what is doing the work do to force and displacement. Momentum is how hard to stop or change the direction of the arrow. That is impulse.

The more KE, the more penetration. The more momentum, the harder it is to stop.

I'm far from a physics expert myself. I have only been studying where it pertains to archery for about two years. I have a professor that helps me.
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Old 03-26-2021, 04:12 PM   #42
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I am by no means a physics expert, so please correct me if I am wrong. I am not understanding why KE is important but not momentum. I thought KE is the amount of energy carried by the arrow. Momentum is a vector, ie, the KE exerted in a specific direction. Is this not the case?
Here is a good video.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...%26FORM%3DVDRE
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Old 03-26-2021, 04:18 PM   #43
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Both are important. As long as the arrow is moving, it has both. It will have both till the arrow stops. Ke energy is what is doing the work do to force and displacement. Momentum is how hard to stop or change the direction of the arrow. That is impulse.

The more KE, the more penetration. The more momentum, the harder it is to stop.

I'm far from a physics expert myself. I have only been studying where it pertains to archery for about two years. I have a professor that helps me.
I don't understand how KE means more penetration. KE needs to be traveling in a specific direction with all of its mass traveling inline in order to mean more penetration. This is why a well tuned bow/arrow is important. Just having the KE doesn't necessarily equate to penetration. It needs to be exerted in a specific vector which would turn it into momentum.

Your quote above that more momentum means harder to stop, isn't an arrow that is harder to stop mean more penetration?

I am not trying to be argumentative, I really would like to learn the difference in KE and momentum and how they relate to archery. Are there any articles written that explain KE and momentum that you could reference? I'd like to read up on it.
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Old 03-26-2021, 04:18 PM   #44
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Thanks, I'll check it out
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Old 03-26-2021, 04:23 PM   #45
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Thanks, I'll check it out
here is another one.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...B5&FORM=VDMCNR
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Old 03-26-2021, 04:59 PM   #46
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I donít shoot long range, so my solution to all this was an ultra heavy setup. I ran my arrows to a 710 grain weight, and almost all of it is insert and broadhead weight.

I went with an Ashby style single bevel, fixed blade broadhead. The effect was an absolute freight train of destruction. My buck this year was 2.5-3 yards from the base of my tree and at a trot. My arrow entered just left of the spine, exited just right of the bottom of the sternum, wrecked the lungs/heart, and broke the offside femur just above the ball of the knee on the way out. Iím sold....

I was really worried about the trajectory change when I first started down this road, but started checking my notes... and I havenít shot a deer past 22 yards in the last 6 years. At 25 yards, the swap from 320-ish to 710 was an inch different. If I was willing to push past 50 yard shots, I may not be comfortable at these weights. At 30 yards and under, I am absolutely sold.

On a side note, my bow got REALLY quiet when it started throwing such heavy arrows. It is extremely noticeable how much quieter it is. I expect that, over time, I will also notice less jumping of the string due to the reduced noise.


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Old 03-26-2021, 05:31 PM   #47
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I love it when you guys get all science-y. Start quoting the Laws of Thermodynamics to me and I just swoon, especially that law zero!
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Old 03-26-2021, 09:30 PM   #48
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For a compound I have tested to a 1500gr. no loss in KE
What speed was the 1500 gr arrow ?
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Old 03-27-2021, 06:49 AM   #49
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The original question was whether a pass through is needed.

My thought is....The thing that kills a deer is blood loss, lung damage to prevent oxygenating blood, heart damage to stop pumping blood, or a hit the central nervous system.

I don't think "hydrostaic shock" has part in this as arrows travel too slowly and a sharp broadhead slices through instead of punching through like a bullet. A CNS shot is unlikley unless you hit the spine or brain. Not what I'm usually shooting at.

That leaves blood loss, heart, or lung. For these you need the arrow get in, go through, and if possible get out the other side. The most important thing to achieve this with any arrow is a sharp broadhead with modest KE or Momentum (whichever is most important) to get the job done.

A pass through assures the broadhead cuts everything it was pointed at and thus maximizes blood loss. It also allows blood out 2 holes instead of one, assures the holes are not plugged by the arrow, and thus helps tracking.

If a long bow can shoot an arrow with adequate KE or MOM to do the job, any compound ever made needs only hit the target.

In my compound days I don't recall ever NOT getting a pass through. Even then I failed to find a few animals over the years. As a newb (with my MOST AWESOME BOB LEE recurve) I am 2 for 2 and did not get a "complete pass through" either time. The arrow was just sticking out the other side about 1/2 way. I need to sharpen better.

Last edited by SJP51; 03-27-2021 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 03-27-2021, 06:50 AM   #50
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What speed was the 1500 gr arrow ?
reckoning 35. 69lbs 26.75" draw.
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