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Old 05-04-2021, 06:02 PM   #51
Mike D
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My aging eyes love the red dot sights since I can hardly see the front sight anymore. But I do not and will not carry one on my carry gun because I carry IWB and I think itís just something else to poke and snag if trying to draw in a hurry.

If I was able to open carry everywhere I went I may run one on my carry guns.


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Old 05-04-2021, 06:55 PM   #52
Stan R
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I have a Glock 45 MOS and 2 48's with MOS.

Don't leave home without one.
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Old 05-05-2021, 01:30 PM   #53
Quackerbox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrowthreat View Post
I guess I'm going to stir the pot a little bit here...

One of my best friends is currently in a high speed unit that I'm not going to name. We were just having this conversation the other day. They did a ton of testing and brought in a lot of real world experience before they switched over. They run Glock 19's with Trijicon MRO's on all of their secondary's now. They know a lot more than the key board warriors do on a bow hunting website.

However, Personally I don't run one. I shoot IDPA Stock service pistol class, so I'm just used to running my Trijicon HD iron sights.
Most of if not all of the two agencies of 'high speed' guys I deal with have some form of optic.

Im seriously considering an upgrade in duty guns and if I do, it will have one
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Old 05-05-2021, 02:06 PM   #54
bloodtrail18
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Most of if not all of the two agencies of 'high speed' guys I deal with have some form of optic.

Im seriously considering an upgrade in duty guns and if I do, it will have one
Remember these "high speed" guys are carrying their weapons in a duty holster and most often have their weapons drawn well in advance of initial contact with a suspect or treat. You and I will most likely be drawing from concealment in an unexpected high stress situation.
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Old 05-05-2021, 02:30 PM   #55
Quackerbox
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Remember these "high speed" guys are carrying their weapons in a duty holster and most often have their weapons drawn well in advance of initial contact with a suspect or treat. You and I will most likely be drawing from concealment in an unexpected high stress situation.
I'll be carrying on duty and drawing from a holster as well

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Old 05-05-2021, 04:26 PM   #56
Arrowthreat
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Originally Posted by bloodtrail18 View Post
Remember these "high speed" guys are carrying their weapons in a duty holster and most often have their weapons drawn well in advance of initial contact with a suspect or treat. You and I will most likely be drawing from concealment in an unexpected high stress situation.
That's completely false. These "guys" "units" don't clear houses with pistols. These are all secondary guns. If they have to use them, Crap has hit the fan and they need to make a shot just as fast as "you and me". It sounds like you're just trying to justify why you're not as fast with a red dot as irons. Its lack of training man. If it was slower for everyone, than nobody would be running them. The guys I shoot with who have switched all said the same thing at first. It takes time and training.

Also, there's tons of company's who make IWB concealment holsters for carry optics.

Last edited by Arrowthreat; 05-05-2021 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 05-05-2021, 04:54 PM   #57
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That's completely false. These "guys" "units" don't clear houses with pistols. These are all secondary guns. If they have to use them, Crap has hit the fan and they need to make a shot just as fast as "you and me". It sounds like you're just trying to justify why you're not as fast with a red dot as irons. Its lack of training man. If it was slower for everyone, than nobody would be running them. The guys I shoot with who have switched all said the same thing at first. It takes time and training.

Also, there's tons of company's who make IWB concealment holsters for carry optics.
I shoot more than 5k rounds of 9mm a year in pistols with red dots on them. I shoot competition with guys from the FBI, SWAT, and many local PD officers and most of them will not put a red dot on their carry guns. How many of the people here have done real tests to see which sighting system they can actually shoot faster on a shot timer? One shot, 7 yards, and a center mass "A" zone hit. I invite you or anyone else to sign up for a match and see how much training they think they have. I'm by no means the best shooter around and currently ranked A class in USPSA but the tactical Timmys with their multicam battle belts, glocks with red dots and everything but the kitchen sink hanging off of them consistently line the bottom of the barrel when the results come in. Like you said it takes time and training, putting a dot on your gun and shooting once a month isn't that.
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Old 05-05-2021, 05:58 PM   #58
Arrowthreat
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I totally agree with you on the tacti-cool wannabes with Gucci guns. But carry optics are not that. I don’t understand your logic on CC. If someone pulls a gun on you and you have to draw and shoot, it doesn’t matter if you’re a CC civilian, SF operator, or cop. The idea is to shoot as fast and accurate as possible. My whole point of even bringing my buddy into this is because they literally shoot every single day. It’s their job. Their unit determined that carry optics were superior on pistols. I haven’t even started training with a carry optic, but I can recognize the advantage it gives you. Just like a red dot on a rifle. It really is the same thing.

I do understand your point on the average joe not training enough. It comes down to the fact that these are sorta a new thing. People who have shot irons on pistols their whole life are going to have to adjust to it and probably change the way they present the pistol to utilize the optic properly. A lot of these guys don’t want to do that, so they just brush it off and say it’s slower.

In regards to you offering people to come out and shoot, have you ever looked at the scores in competitions between carry optics and stock service pistols? There’s a reason why they’re in a different class.

Last edited by Arrowthreat; 05-05-2021 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 05-05-2021, 06:19 PM   #59
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I totally agree with you on the tacti-cool wannabes with Gucci guns. But carry optics are not that. I don’t understand your logic on CC. If someone pulls a gun on you and you have to draw and shoot, it doesn’t matter if you’re a CC civilian, SF operator, or cop. The idea is to shoot as fast and accurate as possible. My whole point of even bringing my buddy into this is because they literally shoot every single day. It’s their job. Their unit determined that carry optics were superior on pistols. I haven’t even started training with a carry optic, but I can recognize the advantage it gives you. Just like a red dot on a rifle. It really is the same thing.
My logic is that I've seen many people, myself included, draw from a holster and hesitate on the first shot because their dot isn't showing up in the glass because their grip was off on the draw. I'm strictly talking first shot from the draw which in a defensive situation is the most important shot.

The difference with irons and red dots on rifles is that you have a quick reference point to get lined up and shoot. On a pistol you will see your iron sights no matter how bad your grip is. On a rifle with any optic you have the gun mounted on your shoulder and cheek weld on the stock, there is no comparison to a pistol there.

I don't care how much you practice, when it's go time and you have to pull a pistol from whatever CC holster you choose you'll be lucky at best to get a good grip and fire a quick lethal shot with a red dot. That's all assuming your dot works and you don't snag it on clothing coming out of the holster.

In regards to match results, I mentioned in an earlier post that follow up shots and transitions between targets are much faster with a dot hence the faster stage times over irons. Take a look at the times from the timer beep to the first shot. Irons line up faster for a first shot but have to be realigned for consecutive shots whereas the dots will stay visible in the lens after recoil and get back on target quicker.

Last edited by bloodtrail18; 05-05-2021 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 05-05-2021, 07:28 PM   #60
trophy8
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Originally Posted by bloodtrail18 View Post
My logic is that I've seen many people, myself included, draw from a holster and hesitate on the first shot because their dot isn't showing up in the glass because their grip was off on the draw. I'm strictly talking first shot from the draw which in a defensive situation is the most important shot.

The difference with irons and red dots on rifles is that you have a quick reference point to get lined up and shoot. On a pistol you will see your iron sights no matter how bad your grip is. On a rifle with any optic you have the gun mounted on your shoulder and cheek weld on the stock, there is no comparison to a pistol there.

I don't care how much you practice, when it's go time and you have to pull a pistol from whatever CC holster you choose you'll be lucky at best to get a good grip and fire a quick lethal shot with a red dot. That's all assuming your dot works and you don't snag it on clothing coming out of the holster.

In regards to match results, I mentioned in an earlier post that follow up shots and transitions between targets are much faster with a dot hence the faster stage times over irons. Take a look at the times from the timer beep to the first shot. Irons line up faster for a first shot but have to be realigned for consecutive shots whereas the dots will stay visible in the lens after recoil and get back on target quicker.
Serious question here. Youíre saying even with a bad grip and bad slide angle that you can like up both iron sights faster than a single dot?

Or is it because youíve practiced much more with irons than an optic and know how to adjust quicker?
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Old 05-05-2021, 08:06 PM   #61
bloodtrail18
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Serious question here. Youíre saying even with a bad grip and bad slide angle that you can like up both iron sights faster than a single dot?

Or is it because youíve practiced much more with irons than an optic and know how to adjust quicker?
Yes, only because when you're looking through the lens on a red dot it can be hard to tell which way your gun is off and keeping the dot out of view. I end up moving the muzzle around and correcting my grip to get the dot to come back into view. Co-witnessed irons help with this but you add taller sights that can snag. Try this, put your pistol in your off hand and get a grip you feel good about. Then bring the pistol up and try to put the dot on target kinda quickly. Chances are with the pistol being in the less familiar hand (simulating a poor grip under stress) you wont bring the gun up and have the dot centered.

I shoot optics on a pistol way more than I do iron sights. I have been using the deltapoint pros from Leupold for about three years now. One other factor that plays into losing your dot is the small size of lens on most CC red dots. The smaller the lens makes it easier for your dot to wander.

I'm not sure how I'm coming across with all this, but my hopes are that some will understand the trade offs when adding a RDS to a CCW.

I love red dots, just not for CCW.
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Old 05-05-2021, 08:08 PM   #62
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10-4. Thank you
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