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Old 10-04-2021, 07:58 PM   #1
enewman
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Default speed erosion.

I posted on archery talk. but some on this site don't visit there. this is data only.
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Old 10-04-2021, 08:08 PM   #2
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Wow!! a lot of numbers. Been bow hunting for 30+ years and shot placement is gospel no matter the speed, weight or anything else. I shot an # 80 bow in 1987 to get 220 fps. It still killed everything deader than hell and that was with the 4 blade Zwickey's.
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Old 10-06-2021, 01:29 AM   #3
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so....heavier is better ;-)
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Old 10-06-2021, 08:53 AM   #4
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so....heavier is better ;-)
Heavy will always out penetrate. Where you start looking at it is trajectory.

Now I'm not hunting with a 361gr arrow, but that arrow had more than enough KE at 50 yards to kill deer or elk.

I am hunting with the 461gr arrow.
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Old 10-06-2021, 04:24 PM   #5
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The heavy is better crowd usually state how the heavy arrow slows down less. Even though my 450 grain arrow is still faster at 60 yards than there 650 grain arrow is at 10. This horse has been beat to death. If people would work on their shot placement with a sharp, moderate cut broadhead they wouldn't have an issue..
I'm not building an arrow because I'm worried about a inch and a quarter wide leg bone.
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Old 10-06-2021, 05:05 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enewman View Post
Heavy will always out penetrate. Where you start looking at it is trajectory.

Now I'm not hunting with a 361gr arrow, but that arrow had more than enough KE at 50 yards to kill deer or elk.

I am hunting with the 461gr arrow.
Very Interesting to see where you stand for your personal arrow setup.
I've seen and read many of your takes and responses regarding FOC, ASHBY, etc...

Nice to see you somewhere right in the middle in terms of arrow weight...


I would like to know the specifics of your setup if you wouldn't mind sharing??
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Old 10-06-2021, 05:47 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by TXPublic54 View Post
Very Interesting to see where you stand for your personal arrow setup.
I've seen and read many of your takes and responses regarding FOC, ASHBY, etc...

Nice to see you somewhere right in the middle in terms of arrow weight...


I would like to know the specifics of your setup if you wouldn't mind sharing??
I still like 200gr broadheads. I still use FOC for arrow stabilization.

My setup this year is the bow is the PSe xpedite at 65lbs. high let of mod set at 80%. draw length is 26.5"

Arrow being used is a deer crossing hunter .246ID. I'm using factory insert and nock. 200gr combat veteran broadhead. fletchings are Techvane matrix 2.25 set at 2degree offset.


I have been moving forward on my thought process over the last year or so. my post are changing from a year ago. Not that I think heavy is wrong. I do think we need to look at things before we just jump into a 650gr arrow to be hunting whitetail deer.

Thank you

Eric newman

Last edited by enewman; 10-06-2021 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 10-06-2021, 10:35 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by jds247 View Post
The heavy is better crowd usually state how the heavy arrow slows down less. Even though my 450 grain arrow is still faster at 60 yards than there 650 grain arrow is at 10. This horse has been beat to death. If people would work on their shot placement with a sharp, moderate cut broadhead they wouldn't have an issue..
I'm not building an arrow because I'm worried about a inch and a quarter wide leg bone.
I shoot well and have for a long time. My heavy setup is because of where I hunt and the environment. I only do what works for me. Heavy / High FOC flies better in the wind. Try it. the arrow path drop and all that drama is somewhat humorous to me. the drop difference out to 50 yards between 450 & 650gr is probably smaller than the shot repeatability of 90% of people on TBH.
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Old 10-06-2021, 11:16 PM   #9
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I shoot well and have for a long time. My heavy setup is because of where I hunt and the environment. I only do what works for me. Heavy / High FOC flies better in the wind. Try it. the arrow path drop and all that drama is somewhat humorous to me. the drop difference out to 50 yards between 450 & 650gr is probably smaller than the shot repeatability of 90% of people on TBH.
I've been there and back. Shot up to 700 grains. I'LL gladly shoot 3d to 100 yards with you .. I've killed everything from ELK to 300 lb hogs with the 450 grain arrow.. shot an axis at 60 yards 2 years ago . Pass through on that animal..
You are correct about shooting what works for you.. I've hunted all over and never had an issue with wind or animal size with 450 grains that a 650 grain arrow would have solved.

I wasn't talking about you in my original post BTW. I was making a general statement about what I read from the ranch fairy crowd .
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Old 10-06-2021, 11:24 PM   #10
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I've been there and back. Shot up to 700 grains. I'LL gladly shoot 3d to 100 yards with you .. I've killed everything from ELK to 300 lb hogs with the 450 grain arrow.. shot an axis at 60 yards 2 years ago . Pass through on that animal..
You are correct about shooting what works for you.. I've hunted all over and never had an issue with wind or animal size with 450 grains that a 650 grain arrow would have solved.

I wasn't talking about you in my original post BTW. I was making a general statement about what I read from the ranch fairy crowd .
k
no worries...I was not getting on you either just jumped on your post to respond. I have no doubt that 450 gr can kill most anything as I have done it. My issue is when people say "you don't need that" well that is subjective. I don't care what does the trick I care what I know works for me in a particular environment. anyway....Good luck its hunting season!
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Old 10-06-2021, 11:53 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by enewman View Post
Heavy will always out penetrate. Where you start looking at it is trajectory.

Now I'm not hunting with a 361gr arrow, but that arrow had more than enough KE at 50 yards to kill deer or elk.

I am hunting with the 461gr arrow.
Eric - so, what is the difference in time to the target of a 461gr arrow and 650gr arrow out of the same bow at normal whitetail range say 12-35 yards measured in milliseconds? What is the difference in drop across those ranges? I am not asking you to conduct an experiment or anything because you speak about the truth of physics, which I agree in, so you know the answer. I just want to see you post it. Some people think they are going to be lobbing a softball out to their feeder with an extra 150gr or so and we both know that that is probably not the truth of physics portrayed in these cases. just post it....school us up. And for the record I am not saying anything heavier than 350gr is required to kill a whitetail with a bow.

Last edited by Tom; 10-07-2021 at 12:50 AM.
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Old 10-07-2021, 12:45 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom View Post
k
no worries...I was not getting on you either just jumped on your post to respond. I have no doubt that 450 gr can kill most anything as I have done it. My issue is when people say "you don't need that" well that is subjective. I don't care what does the trick I care what I know works for me in a particular environment. anyway....Good luck its hunting season!
I agree with you that inside of 40 yards it's not that much different. I have some 2 blade cutthroat bh I like to shoot big pigs with. They are 150 gr. I can shoot the 100 or 150s pretty much same poi to 30 yards..

My season starts Friday because I was stuck at work .. good luck to you too ..
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Old 10-07-2021, 08:40 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Tom View Post
Eric - so, what is the difference in time to the target of a 461gr arrow and 650gr arrow out of the same bow at normal whitetail range say 12-35 yards measured in milliseconds? What is the difference in drop across those ranges? I am not asking you to conduct an experiment or anything because you speak about the truth of physics, which I agree in, so you know the answer. I just want to see you post it. Some people think they are going to be lobbing a softball out to their feeder with an extra 150gr or so and we both know that that is probably not the truth of physics portrayed in these cases. just post it....school us up. And for the record I am not saying anything heavier than 350gr is required to kill a whitetail with a bow.
Funny you are asking about those two arrows. I had already made the comparison; I just never posted it.
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Old 10-07-2021, 11:07 AM   #14
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Great work Eric! .088 seconds different impact time at 40 yards by adding 200 gr is pretty good.

as far as trajectory you need to look at a 2-3 yard ranging error between each weight arrow across the range that you will hunt. I believe you will have maybe a 1" difference between the 2 at 35 yards. The belief that with that heavier arrow if I make a 1 yard mistake in my range I will miss the target is not backed up by the facts. In fact, I believe that the delta in error is tighter than most bowhunters repeatability shot to shot.

I like how you have this data....thanks
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Old 10-07-2021, 11:28 AM   #15
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Great work Eric! .088 seconds different impact time at 40 yards by adding 200 gr is pretty good.

as far as trajectory you need to look at a 2-3 yard ranging error between each weight arrow across the range that you will hunt. I believe you will have maybe a 1" difference between the 2 at 35 yards. The belief that with that heavier arrow if I make a 1 yard mistake in my range I will miss the target is not backed up by the facts. In fact, I believe that the delta in error is tighter than most bowhunters repeatability shot to shot.

I like how you have this data....thanks
I have been thinking about doing a chart just on yardage. say sight in at 20 yards then shoot at 15 and 25 and looking at the difference. then repeat say 30 yards and maybe even 40 yards.

Thanks for the kind words.
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Old 10-07-2021, 12:23 PM   #16
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when I went from 474gr to 612gr my total drop between 40-50 yards increased by 5". so in reality a few yards off is an inch or so error between the two..so not much.
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Old 10-07-2021, 12:30 PM   #17
Briar Friar
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Super cool.
Any particular use for the number 20 and 15 overlays on the sight tapes?
Device has a c in it.
Thanks for sharing the info MrNewman.
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Old 10-07-2021, 01:32 PM   #18
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Super cool.
Any particular use for the number 20 and 15 overlays on the sight tapes?
Device has a c in it.
Thanks for sharing the info MrNewman.
I don't know why it did that. I'm using archers advantage.
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Old 10-07-2021, 04:15 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by enewman View Post
I have been thinking about doing a chart just on yardage. say sight in at 20 yards then shoot at 15 and 25 and looking at the difference. then repeat say 30 yards and maybe even 40 yards.

Thanks for the kind words.
I dont believe you will see much difference in poi until you get past 35 or 40 yards. I'd be interested to see the results..
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Old 10-07-2021, 11:57 PM   #20
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I don't know why it did that. I'm using archers advantage.
All good.
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Old 10-14-2021, 03:56 PM   #21
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Neat to see the data laid out. I know a lot of the “debate” hinges on which problem you’re trying to solve, so in reality this data could support either side of the arrow weight “issue”.

I’ve always wondered if I was allowing too much time at 40 yards by shooting a slower arrow on something like an elk. Looks like it’s not as large of a difference as I thought. But, after seeing some yardage tapes, I believe that it’s going to be “easier” to be accurate at a distance with a moderate weight arrow than a heavy one. That reduced weight accounts for errors in yardage and gives me the ability to use one pin for a wider range of distance.


I’ve got the components to build out a 465-ish grain arrow, and I think I’m gonna go ahead and do it thanks to your info!
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Old 10-15-2021, 12:38 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by popup_menace View Post
Neat to see the data laid out. I know a lot of the “debate” hinges on which problem you’re trying to solve, so in reality this data could support either side of the arrow weight “issue”.

I’ve always wondered if I was allowing too much time at 40 yards by shooting a slower arrow on something like an elk. Looks like it’s not as large of a difference as I thought. But, after seeing some yardage tapes, I believe that it’s going to be “easier” to be accurate at a distance with a moderate weight arrow than a heavy one. That reduced weight accounts for errors in yardage and gives me the ability to use one pin for a wider range of distance.


I’ve got the components to build out a 465-ish grain arrow, and I think I’m gonna go ahead and do it thanks to your info!
In reality if the pins are close together any amount of movement is going to cause a greater error. Think about it.... if your natural movement is *** for a wide gap and tight gap pin then clearly the tighter gap pin will have a greater ranging error with the same movement. Not sure if you get what I am saying, but think about it. I have always just felt more clarity in long range with a little more "space to view the target"

if your pins are 1/8" apart for 20-30 yards and your breathing causes 1/16" movement you are 5 yards off ranging error at some point in your shot from your breathing. double the distance of pins and half the error. slower speeds are not twice the drop and not even close. this is an exaggerated error but the principal is easy to understand

Last edited by Tom; 10-15-2021 at 12:43 AM.
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