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Old 11-28-2021, 10:27 PM   #1
landman650
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Default FFL Denying ID

I have a private FFL (in Texas) and who accepted a firearm transfer for me but is denying my use of my valid LTC for my identification.

I have a couple thoughts on this and wondering what other peoples knowledge is. 1) House Bill 2739 in Texas states that an LTC is a valid ID and should only be denied use in three separate instances unrelated to firearm transfers.
2) the ATFs intent for using valid ID is so that the FFL can properly ID the person. This is my second time using this guy, so he already knows that I am who I say I am plus I have #1 to push the issue.

How should I address this with the FFL? If I show him the HB2739 language and he just says no, then what?

Thanks.
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Old 11-28-2021, 10:28 PM   #2
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Reason you cant just use ID instead of ltc?
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Old 11-28-2021, 10:37 PM   #3
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You don’t have a TDL?

If not, then show him the language in the bill and ask him to reconsider.

If yes, show him your TDL unless you’re trying to prove a point.
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Old 11-28-2021, 10:37 PM   #4
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Why can’t you just show your DL?
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Old 11-28-2021, 10:39 PM   #5
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Valid questions posted.
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Old 11-28-2021, 10:42 PM   #6
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My DL just expired and I was unaware of that and there was a hold on my renewal. It’ll take a few days to clear up the hold on my DL renewal. So there’s the why on the DL.

But that’s besides the point in the eyes of the law.
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Old 11-28-2021, 10:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JES View Post
You donít have a TDL?

If not, then show him the language in the bill and ask him to reconsider.

If yes, show him your TDL unless youíre trying to prove a point.
And if he says noÖ which is my original question.
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Old 11-28-2021, 10:44 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Hooverfb View Post
Reason you cant just use ID instead of ltc?
Valid DL or state ID (the one without driving privileges) are the commonly accepted ones and yes he would accept either.
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Old 11-28-2021, 10:44 PM   #9
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Maybe he's concerned about the possibility that there's something on your record that prevents you from obtaining a new DL, and he just wants to be sure. ??
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Old 11-28-2021, 10:46 PM   #10
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Fwiw, if you operate a business in Texas, you should know the laws that your business must abide by. I’m trying to get my rifle asap, not to prove a point. His condescending attitude makes me want to just prove a point but it’s not worth my time either and I’d otherwise wait until my DL is renewed. I’m not an A-hole that would make a big deal about it. Just wouldn’t use him again.
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Old 11-28-2021, 10:47 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Shane View Post
Maybe he's concerned about the possibility that there's something on your record that prevents you from obtaining a new DL, and he just wants to be sure. ??
Maybe but I could show him the reasons on the TX website as to why and they don’t keep me from buying a firearm.

There is a line in the ATF laws regarding transfers that if an ID isn’t valid an FFL can stop the transfer until it’s valid. However, he stated that an LTC flat out can not be used. Which as far as I can tell isn’t true and actually illegal for him to do. And since I would still present a valid ID, it should negate the invalid ID, IMO, but that’s why I came here to ask.

Last edited by landman650; 11-28-2021 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 11-28-2021, 11:17 PM   #12
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Being a man of principle has cost me a few times. However the principle of the matter is very important to me as it seems to be to you. I'd hammer him with it.
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Old 11-28-2021, 11:20 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landman650 View Post
Fwiw, if you operate a business in Texas, you should know the laws that your business must abide by. Iím trying to get my rifle asap, not to prove a point. His condescending attitude makes me want to just prove a point but itís not worth my time either and Iíd otherwise wait until my DL is renewed. Iím not an A-hole that would make a big deal about it. Just wouldnít use him again.
If you own and operate a business, you should also know what the penalties are if you make a mistake in paperwork. To him possibly could mean a loss of FFL. To him that $25 he'll make isn't worth the risk.

Maybe try being polite and explaining to him about your DL and that you have researched it and you are of the belief that a LTC is sufficient ID. If he disagrees ask him for an explanation.

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Old 11-28-2021, 11:32 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by junkmanhunter View Post
If you own and operate a business, you should also know what the penalties are if you make a mistake in paperwork. To him possibly could mean a loss of FFL. To him that $25 he'll make isn't worth the risk.

Maybe try being polite and explaining to him about your DL and that you have researched it and you are of the belief that a LTC is sufficient ID. If he disagrees ask him for an explanation.


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I think we all know the regulations that an FFL is subject to is ridiculously stringent. But flat out not knowing a law is beyond taking precautions.

I agree on taking the high road approach and being polite.
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Old 11-28-2021, 11:37 PM   #15
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I do believe a ffl is no different from any other business. If they don't want your business you are sol.
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Old 11-28-2021, 11:48 PM   #16
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He needs a copy of both for his purposes. Not just an LTC..
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:01 AM   #17
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Is he not accepting your LTC for immediate transfer or are you not giving him your DL 411 & only wanting to give the LTC...I don't understand what the problem is.
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:06 AM   #18
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Remember, a dealer can basically deny a transfer for any reason at all if they choose and simply force the customer to deal with someone else. I am betting he is being over cautious as the governing bodies are famous for being super strict at times.
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:12 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by TKRanch View Post
Remember, a dealer can basically deny a transfer for any reason at all if they choose and simply force the customer to deal with someone else. I am betting he is being over cautious as the governing bodies are famous for being super strict at times.
Problem would be that then he would charge me shipping the gun back to FL to the seller of the rifle and then I’d have to pay for shipping from FL again.

It won’t get this far obviously. I’ll just renew my DL license, it’ll just be a few more days wait. But that’s not the point. I should be able to pick up the rifle now it seems.

Last edited by landman650; 11-29-2021 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:13 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TX03RUBI View Post
He needs a copy of both for his purposes. Not just an LTC..
Where does the law state this because it doesnít as far as I can tell. You only need 1 form of ID for a background check.
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:14 AM   #21
landman650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walker View Post
I do believe a ffl is no different from any other business. If they don't want your business you are sol.
Maybe… I’m no legal expert on operating a business in Texas. However the exception is for the repercussions of denying my business which is he would make me pay to ship it back to original owner and I’d be paying shipping 3x for the back and forth.
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:16 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKRanch View Post
Remember, a dealer can basically deny a transfer for any reason at all if they choose and simply force the customer to deal with someone else. I am betting he is being over cautious as the governing bodies are famous for being super strict at times.
Yeah. He can be overly cautious but state law says he canít deny my use of TLC as a form of ID.
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:17 AM   #23
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AN ACT
relating to the use of a concealed handgun license as valid proof of
personal identification.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:
SECTION 1. Subtitle A, Title 11, Business & Commerce Code,
is amended by adding Chapter 506 to read as follows:
CHAPTER 506. CONCEALED HANDGUN LICENSES AS VALID FORMS OF
PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION
Sec. 506.001. CONCEALED HANDGUN LICENSE AS VALID PROOF OF
IDENTIFICATION. (a) A person may not deny the holder of a
concealed handgun license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411,
Government Code, access to goods, services, or facilities, except
as provided by Section 521.460, Transportation Code, or in regard
to the operation of a motor vehicle, because the holder has or
presents a concealed handgun license rather than a driver's license
or other acceptable form of personal identification.
(b) This section does not affect:
(1) the requirement under Section 411.205, Government
Code, that a person subject to that section present a driver's
license or identification certificate in addition to a concealed
handgun license; or
(2) the types of identification required under federal
law to access airport premises or pass through airport security.
SECTION 2. This Act takes effect September 1, 2015.
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:18 AM   #24
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Posted the language of the law since it’s a short and concise read. Not much gray area.
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:23 AM   #25
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I have no input on your issue at hand but this made me remember when I was in my young 20s and baby faced.

I'd get ID'd at bars and they'd ask for a 2nd form of ID. I'd then show them my CHL that had same pic of my DL. No one that asked ever found it funny. lol
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Old 11-29-2021, 01:07 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landman650 View Post
Posted the language of the law since it’s a short and concise read. Not much gray area.
Unless I missed it, there is a huge gray area. It lists no penalty for noncompliance. It tells a business you will accept an LTC but leaves it at that. I even went back to the first chapter and tried to find a general penalty like some codes have and then in that title but could not find anything.

And….. I think it is Chapter 507, Section 507.001.

It kind of seems like the law on notifying an officer that you have an LTC if you are detained and carrying however they took away the penalty. You may have broken the law but there are no consequences.
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Old 11-29-2021, 05:03 AM   #27
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I can sympathize with your frustration, but it sounds like you're gonna have to go along, to get along with this guy. Otherwise it's gonna cost you more time and money. Since you've dealt with him before and he knows who you are, can't your exist/expired TDL, along with a printed copy of your license renewal receipt work to satisfy his request?
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Old 11-29-2021, 06:13 AM   #28
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The ffl can deny transfer for any reason. When I sold guns if we had a person that we felt was up to no good we would just say sorry can’t sell you a gun
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Old 11-29-2021, 06:28 AM   #29
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Federal law (ffl) not state law is the answer to this.
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Old 11-29-2021, 06:38 AM   #30
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1st Question: Does he know your DL is expired? This alone would throw up a red flag to me as a business owner SELLING A FIREARM! Even the fact that you couldn't produce one would make me leary. As a business owner; A FFL in today's climate, I don't blame the guy one bit. His livelihood is at stake, the only thing at stake for you is your patience.

From his perspective, a man that can't get his chit together enough to know his Drivers License is expired (Especially if he knows it can't be renewed for whatever reason) and get it remedied, isn't responsible enough to own a firearm.

Get your chit in order, Clark.
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Old 11-29-2021, 06:43 AM   #31
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So what’s your point here? You know all the answers to your own questions.

Sounds like ffl ain’t gonna bend because “ he knows you?” Imagine sending that in the paperwork. “Awww hell y’all… I know ol’ Clem’s DL is expired but I know him from another transaction. That ok with y’all? “

Dude has you by the huevos. So how you address it is however he says.
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Old 11-29-2021, 07:05 AM   #32
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You only need your LTC, Just bought 2 pistols over the last month and that is all I showed either FFL
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Old 11-29-2021, 07:35 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TX03RUBI View Post
He needs a copy of both for his purposes. Not just an LTC..

My FFL has only asked for my LTC. Heís never asked for my DL.


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Old 11-29-2021, 07:48 AM   #34
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Every time I’ve bought a gun since I don’t know when I’ve been asked for both forms of ID. No problem if you stay up to date.
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Old 11-29-2021, 09:03 AM   #35
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Dealer is holding the cards, you are gonna have to do what he wants.

Have you dealt with this dealer before?

I get your side but I get his side too
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Old 11-29-2021, 09:41 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike D View Post
My FFL has only asked for my LTC. Heís never asked for my DL.


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Iíve shared a couple FFL/SOTs and sat through an audit. It very well could be agent dependent, but I promise the agent weíve had wanted both copies on file for CHL/LTC transfers.

As far as where is the law (OPs question) it doesnít make a single bit of difference. He only cares about his licensing regulations, which donít have to be law. Donít like it then go somewhere else.
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Old 11-29-2021, 09:45 AM   #37
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couple of thoughts.

do you know if he ran your LTC on the state site to confirm its validity? it could be saying no go.

you drove to his location without a valid DL.... you are a criminal and he don't transfer to criminals. haha.



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Old 11-29-2021, 09:47 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TX03RUBI View Post
Iíve shared a couple FFL/SOTs and sat through an audit. It very well could be agent dependent, but I promise the agent weíve had wanted both copies on file for CHL/LTC transfers.



As far as where is the law (OPs question) it doesnít make a single bit of difference. He only cares about his licensing regulations, which donít have to be law. Donít like it then go somewhere else.
copies on file? you made copies of DL and LTC to keep on file?

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Old 11-29-2021, 09:50 AM   #39
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Not to be a jerk, but he maintains an FFL, the paperwork, the hassle, I'm sure he's making money but it's also a huge liability on his part both financially and criminally so we can click a button and order a firearm or have a custom one off shipped near our home and go pick it up. I'd cut him some slack and go somewhere else next time if you didn't like the way he handled it, it's not his fault your driver's license is expired. I would imagine holding an FFL is about like being a cop these days, it just ain't worth the hassle.
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Old 11-29-2021, 09:50 AM   #40
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Quote:
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copies on file? you made copies of DL and LTC to keep on file?

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Absolutely. Has to accompany the 4473.
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Old 11-29-2021, 09:51 AM   #41
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I've had a couple of regular customers show up w/ expired DL's while waiting for their hard copy...simply got online & printed out the temp paper form / new expiration date is what I need.
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Old 11-29-2021, 10:18 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by TX03RUBI View Post
Absolutely. Has to accompany the 4473.
Its not mandatory. Some license holders just choose to do it.

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Old 11-29-2021, 10:48 AM   #43
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So you messed up by letting your DL expire but somehow this is the FFL's fault? The man is doing what he thinks is right to protect himself whether you agree or not. I cant fault him for that. Im a big believer in root cause when analyzing a problem. The fact that you let your DL expire is the root cause of this problem.
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Old 11-29-2021, 10:55 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landman650 View Post
My DL just expired and I was unaware of that and there was a hold on my renewal. Itíll take a few days to clear up the hold on my DL renewal. So thereís the why on the DL.

But thatís besides the point in the eyes of the law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtp View Post
So you messed up by letting your DL expire but somehow this is the FFL's fault? The man is doing what he thinks is right to protect himself whether you agree or not. I cant fault him for that. Im a big believer in root cause when analyzing a problem. The fact that you let your DL expire is the root cause of this problem.


Where there's smoke there's fire.
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Old 11-29-2021, 11:13 AM   #45
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Man, this one is on you. The guy literally keeps books that if kept wrong could possibly lead to Federal Prison time if not that, then a fine in the tens of thousands of dollars. You let your legal documentation expire and it is incumbent on him to make sure every transaction is 100% legit. I have always been asked for a DL and I’ve always given them my DL and LTC. Never had a problem.

Your only option here is to settle your own mistakes involving your DL and then hand it over to him when you get it renewed.
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Old 11-29-2021, 11:23 AM   #46
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As a federally licensed agent, I would think he has no obligation to accept an ID that state says in a valid ID.

I have always had to present a DL. Last summer I didn't realize my DL had expired. My local FFL that I have dealt with for 20yrs and have bought dozens of firearms from would not sell me a pistol. We are on a first name basis and go hunting together.....he still said nope.

The LTC has just allowed me to walk out right then and not wait on the NCIS check.
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Old 11-29-2021, 11:41 AM   #47
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Why don't you just ask the ATF?
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Old 11-29-2021, 11:58 AM   #48
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The place I go to gives me a discount if I show them my LTC however I always give them my drivers license also.
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:06 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andre3k View Post
Its not mandatory. Some license holders just choose to do it.
Every inspecting agent on every audit I've had asks me if I get copies of lic & fll's...can you confirm on the atf web site where I can tell them it's ok for me to quit per their own rules??
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Old 11-29-2021, 12:08 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvc184 View Post
Unless I missed it, there is a huge gray area. It lists no penalty for noncompliance. It tells a business you will accept an LTC but leaves it at that. I even went back to the first chapter and tried to find a general penalty like some codes have and then in that title but could not find anything.

AndÖ.. I think it is Chapter 507, Section 507.001.

It kind of seems like the law on notifying an officer that you have an LTC if you are detained and carrying however they took away the penalty. You may have broken the law but there are no consequences.
Good catch on the lack of penalty.
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