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Pass-through, is it needed?

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    #16
    Originally posted by SRK14 View Post
    I shoot a slick trick standard myself. I guess the reason why I shoot a small fixed blade from my setup is because of the forgiving nature of the smaller heads. If my form is slightly off at the time of the shot it’s not affected nearly as bad as if I was shooting a large cutting fixed blade. Of course there’s always the mechanical vs fixed debate. I’ve had better success with fixed, and I like a forgiving setup.
    Same here, no issue with the Slick Tricks. Mechanical is a band-aid for a poorly tuned bow or bad Indian.

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      #17
      Originally posted by Lone_Wolf View Post
      I still think you should shoot the biggest broadhead you can accurately. Which usually means a mechanical, because most folks don't have the ability to tune a giant traditional head out of fast modern setups. It provides an insurance policy, and If you take broadside shots for the most part, you should still get pass throughs. I used to shoot the big Vortex broadheads with Hoyt vipertec. Bow's IBO was 300FPS, and I was pulling 64lbs. Most of the arrows ended up just under the skin on the off side, and most deer didn't make it out of site. And recovered a couple that I probably shouldn't have.

      Will never understand the guys who are shooting blaz'n fast setups with tiny little broadheads like slicktricks etc. It's like making a surgical wound if you make a bad shot. You may get lucky and hit an artery, but why put all that energy burying your arrow 8 inches in the ground after it's zipped through the deer.
      Were you shooting aluminum arrows?

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        #18
        Originally posted by enewman View Post
        I understand KE very well. I also stated we always should strive for a pass-through. momentum is not work. momentum is how hard it is to stop.
        When building an arrow for hunting, the amount of work performed will come down to the amount of kinetic energy the arrow possesses upon impact and the resistance being applied to the arrow as it moves through the animal. When we get a pass-through, the arrow still has energy. At that point, all additional energy is wasted.
        So I understand the "momentum is not work" statement from a physics standpoint, but doesn't the bold part prove that momentum is a pretty important part of the recipe?

        The one thing I consistently take away from a heavier arrow/fixed blade setup is that you don't have to worry so much when shooting the "v" with thin blades on expandables.

        I'm not a kool-aid drinker from any camp though... I don't bite on the 600gr setups with 20% FOC or the 350gr setups with expandables that are constantly hanging halfway out of a 150lb whitetails ribcage. I like a an arrow with a little more FOC and somewhere around 450gr, and I really prefer a true COC broadhead. I know for a fact that with a sharp head that zips through critters, you get way less reaction to the shot.

        Good paper though E...I always appreciate your posts!

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          #19
          Originally posted by quackadikt View Post
          Were you shooting aluminum arrows?
          Goldtip 7595's. I have a 31" draw length.
          Last edited by Lone_Wolf; 03-26-2021, 08:26 AM.

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            #20
            ,,, also an animal with an arrow still stuck in it tends to run much farther than one that had it pass through,,,,

            That's absolutely not true. Those vortex broadheads, for whatever reason, just liked to stay in the deer. Most of the shots, my broadhead lodged in the off shoulder, or just behind it. 95% of the time the arrow was still in the deer when I recovered it when I shot vortex broadheads. Now I shoot NAP Spitfire MAXX and I get pass throughs and a big wound, but.....alot of energy is used cutting a big hole in that deer.

            I wouldn't hesitate to go back to the vortex. Completely disemboweled a doe, cut every rib on one side, and completely cut off one leg, only thing leaving the leg connected was skin. When I was walking up to the deer, the deer stomach had literally fallen out on the ground.
            Last edited by Lone_Wolf; 03-26-2021, 08:24 AM.

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              #21
              Originally posted by Razorback01 View Post
              Same here, no issue with the Slick Tricks. Mechanical is a band-aid for a poorly tuned bow or bad Indian.
              This is just a dumb remark... Not your cup of tea that's fine, but some people may just like the idea of very large wound channels. Personally I know that even with the perfectly tuned bow, and all the practice in the world doesn't stop crazy stuff from happening when you're shooting a living breathing animal. I'm a "bigger is better" guy when it comes to broadheads. They've saved the day more than they have let me down.

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                #22
                Originally posted by quackadikt View Post
                So I understand the "momentum is not work" statement from a physics standpoint, but doesn't the bold part prove that momentum is a pretty important part of the recipe?

                The one thing I consistently take away from a heavier arrow/fixed blade setup is that you don't have to worry so much when shooting the "v" with thin blades on expandables.

                I'm not a kool-aid drinker from any camp though... I don't bite on the 600gr setups with 20% FOC or the 350gr setups with expandables that are constantly hanging halfway out of a 150lb whitetails ribcage. I like a an arrow with a little more FOC and somewhere around 450gr, and I really prefer a true COC broadhead. I know for a fact that with a sharp head that zips through critters, you get way less reaction to the shot.

                Good paper though E...I always appreciate your posts!
                it all matters.

                over simplified= KE is what pushes the arrow through the animal. momentum is how hard it is to stop. I know a horrible description.

                there are lots of people out there saying "momentum is what causes penetration" or " momentum built by mass will outperform momentum built by velocity" if you look into physics, both of those statements are false.

                physics tells us two unequal mass, but equal momentum the object with the highest KE will outperform. this is an easy test to do. Not really but it can be done. and I'm doing it. haha. I want to prove physics using a compound bow.

                now your post. I'm 100% with you. Thank you.

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Lone_Wolf View Post
                  Goldtip 7595's. I have a 31" draw length.


                  Cheater. hahaha

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by Lone_Wolf View Post
                    Goldtip 7595's. I have a 31" draw length.

                    Well, that helps [emoji28]

                    Those vortex liked to stay in the animals because the blade angle was horrible. I bet your arrow was at least 450gr and with those ape arms you’re blessed with you still couldn’t punch them through all the time.


                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by enewman View Post
                      it all matters.

                      over simplified= KE is what pushes the arrow through the animal. momentum is how hard it is to stop. I know a horrible description.

                      there are lots of people out there saying "momentum is what causes penetration" or " momentum built by mass will outperform momentum built by velocity" if you look into physics, both of those statements are false.

                      physics tells us two unequal mass, but equal momentum the object with the highest KE will outperform. this is an easy test to do. Not really but it can be done. and I'm doing it. haha. I want to prove physics using a compound bow.

                      now your post. I'm 100% with you. Thank you.

                      I’m interested to see this test. I thought physics said the heavier object would be harder to stop, but it’s been a minute since I picked up a physics book, thank God.


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by quackadikt View Post
                        Well, that helps [emoji28]

                        Those vortex liked to stay in the animals because the blade angle was horrible. I bet your arrow was at least 450gr and with those ape arms you’re blessed with you still couldn’t punch them through all the time.


                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                        Yeah, they kind of chopped and sliced, vs more of slicing, which is more efficient. That's why I switched to the spitfire. They still put the critters down, and fast.

                        The deer seem to really not know as much that they're hit with the spitfire's, with the vortex, they knew something was TERRIBLY WRONG when they got hit

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by quackadikt View Post
                          I’m interested to see this test. I thought physics said the heavier object would be harder to stop, but it’s been a minute since I picked up a physics book, thank God.


                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                          A heavier object will. But I'm matching the momentum. What I'm looking at is proving that momentum is not what causes penetration.

                          My test will be with one arrow at 400gr +/-5. The second arrow will be in the low 600gr. Not sure where yet, trying to match FOC. To match would mean the heavier arrow will have less KE.

                          Looking at physics and the test follows physics, what I will be showing That KE is what causes penetration, not momentum. It will also show that most people say that momentum built from mass will out penetrate momentum built on velocity is wrong.

                          I don't care which way the test comes out. Either way, one side will be happy, and the other side will be ******.

                          The side that will be ****** will also be the side that will do its best to show that I'm stupid. But I already have them fooled. I already know I'm stupid. hehehehehe.

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by enewman View Post
                            The side that will be ****** will also be the side that will do its best to show that I'm stupid. But I already have them fooled. I already know I'm stupid. hehehehehe.
                            [emoji23]


                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                              #29
                              I always want a pass though both bow and gun.

                              With the bow I want the largest diameter broadhead that will perform reliably, fly straight and be somewhat durable.

                              With a gun I want a bullet that holds together, expands well and reliably and is accurate to longer ranges.


                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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                                #30
                                KE penetrates.

                                Imho.

                                There is a midpoint/sweetspot where an arrow gets too heavy and slows down too much so that it starts to lose K.E.

                                But a heavier arrow (say 450gr) shooting 275fps (75.6 K.E.) is still better than a light arrow (say 350gr) shooting 312fps (75.7 K.E.). Because of momentum, imo. Harder to stop something "heavy".

                                Simple test would be to shoot the above two scenarios into the same object and see which one pokes out!

                                I'm in no way smart so mho really ain't worth much, lol. And I may or may not be drinking already!

                                and FWIW, I shoot 440 gr @ 280 fps (76.6 K.E.). Fixed blade 1 & 1/4" cut.
                                Last edited by 12ring; 03-26-2021, 11:47 AM. Reason: K.E.

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