Extreme f.o.c or heavy arrow

[Tom]

thanks for the answer. I am not trying to belittle you in any way....but you are presenting questions that are not relevant to one individual with one bow. it does not matter if XX or YY does better from different setups. What matters in archery is what works with what you have. I did mention this and you said I do not get it. I get it and so do you as you later mentioned just this.

So I don't understand the point of all this. It does not matter what a light arrow will do. I elk hunt and will absolutely take an 80 yard shot with my 615gr set up if he has his face in the water.....I absolutely would not with my 405gr whitetail setup that moves much faster. Done that and it honed my tracking skills.

I don't have the time to agree or disagree with what you say. I am confident that you have looked into this extensively.

The question for bowhunters is your set up and what do you want to hunt. Hypothetical questions do not kill animals. Light and fast setups are no good for dangerous game....they may work but an outfitter will tell you to stay at the house. Not because they don't understand the physics but because this is old math and you are not going to change the answer as to what works and what does not based upon 7 years of non-professional studies.

If you can help people make the right decision then help them. If you want to give seminars based upon empirical data that you have collected then by all means do that. Just pick and choose your audience accordingly.

once again....I am not taking a cheap shot at you. Bowhunting is not rocket science....it has been around forever.

[enewman]

Here is what you heavy foc people don’t get. Yes a giant heavy arrow will penetrate more. But penetration does no good if your not hitting the animal where your aiming. Therefore there is a happy medium between speed and arrow weight. And if you look at most successful bowhunters who hunt animals all over the world they are all shooing 380-510 grains. No really good bowhunter is shooting 600+ grains. You guys should really look at what guys that are killing critters every year are shooting and stop being gay with ranch fairy


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The funny thing is I believe the same as what you are saying. I teach arrows weight between 450gr and 525gr. I teach about what broadhead to use. I teach that you only need enough FOC to stabilize the arrow for what broadhead you are using. However if hunting with fixed I do recommend 15% min.

I do not believe in what the ranch fairy is teaching, because of my writing of a few papers going against the ranch fairy and ashby I am no longer welcomed in the foundation. So please don’t group me in this heavy arrow gay With ranch fairy,

[Tom]

The funny thing is I believe the same as what you are saying. I teach arrows weight between 450gr and 525gr. I teach about what broadhead to use. I teach that you only need enough FOC to stabilize the arrow for what broadhead you are using. However if hunting with fixed I do recommend 15% min.

I do not believe in what the ranch fairy is teaching, because of my writing of a few papers going against the ranch fairy and ashby I am no longer welcomed in the foundation. So please don’t group me in this heavy arrow gay With ranch fairy,

of course. as I said I am not taking a run at you. I have no idea what Ranch Fairy is saying as I cannot get past all of the giggles and goofiness in his videos to see if he even knows what he is talking about. I read Ashby some time ago and mostly was interested in some tuning aspects. If you can back up your findings with data I can not imagine why you would not be welcome to present your findings! Keep doing what you are doing!

[enewman]

thanks for the answer. I am not trying to belittle you in any way....but you are presenting questions that are not relevant to one individual with one bow. it does not matter if XX or YY does better from different setups. What matters in archery is what works with what you have. I did mention this and you said I do not get it. I get it, and so do you, as you later mentioned just this.

So I don't understand the point of all this. It does not matter what a light arrow will do. I elk hunt and will absolutely take an 80 yard shot with my 615gr set up if he has his face in the water.....I absolutely would not with my 405gr whitetail setup that moves much faster. Done that, and it honed my tracking skills.

I don't have the time to agree or disagree with what you say. I am confident that you have looked into this extensively.

The question for bowhunters is your set up and what do you want to hunt. Hypothetical questions do not kill animals. Light and fast setups are no good for dangerous game....they may work but an outfitter will tell you to stay at the house. Not because they don't understand the physics but because this is old math and you are not going to change the answer as to what works and what does not based upon 7 years of non-professional studies.

If you can help people make the right decision then help them. If you want to give seminars based upon empirical data that you have collected then by all means do that. Just pick and choose your audience accordingly.

once again....I am not taking a cheap shot at you. Bowhunting is not rocket science....it has been around forever.

There are things in archery that I feel need to be corrected. So, I'm slowly producing information and data. I do this with the help of others.

Understanding what gives us the ability to penetrate is one of them.
Understanding FOC. That is a problem also. We should not teach FOC. We should teach the center of gravity and center of pressure with static margin.

Now I look at archery as rocket science. Haha, I'm like the physics side of it. I want to know why and how it works. That is just me. I enjoy helping people, and I share what I have learned freely.

Like you, I would not hunt elk with a 400gr arrow. Throughout the post, I have stated mass is what we need to give us greater penetration. The test between the light and heavy is a physics test. It has all the variables we see in hunting removed. That is how you do a scientific test. Once we learn this, then we add the variables back in. That is all I have tried to show.

KE is what gives us the capacity to penetrate; momentum is how hard to stop. Adding mass when all other factors are equal will increase penetration.

We do not need a 650gr arrow as some are teaching to kill whitetail deer. We don't even need it for elk. But as the animal gets bigger, we must do a better job at placing the arrow where it belongs. If a person cannot do this, then yes, a heavier arrow will benefit them. there is a lot more to it, but I can see it would not be worth looking at in this post.

For elk I would be close to that 600gr mark. but do I need it. I can say I killed a water buffalo with a 450gr arrow. but I put the shot in the heart.

[enewman]

I shot this buffalo with a carbon express 450 with standard nock, blazer fletchings: the factory insert and a 125gr stinger. Arrow around 450gr, I believe.

The buffalo was at 30 yards and moving. I took the shot, but I don't do good on moving animals. The arrow was too far back on impact, about in the middle. But it stopped. so I quickly closed the gap to 20 yards and put the second arrow in the heart.

That animal was taken with a setup that is not even close to what the Ashby foundation teaches we need on an animal like that.

Shot placement is essential when hunting animals—massive ones.

[Tom]

I shot this buffalo with a carbon express 450 with standard nock, blazer fletchings: the factory insert and a 125gr stinger. Arrow around 450gr, I believe.

The buffalo was at 30 yards and moving. I took the shot, but I don't do good on moving animals. The arrow was too far back on impact, about in the middle. But it stopped. so I quickly closed the gap to 20 yards and put the second arrow in the heart.

That animal was taken with a setup that is not even close to what the Ashby foundation teaches we need on an animal like that.

Shot placement is essential when hunting animals—massive ones.

nice animal but I would say, and as a science guy you will agree, that one example does not meet the burden of proof in a scientific experiment. I would also say that across a large data set what Ashby studies recommend will be incredibly more reliable than than this setup on large game. there is no question.

[enewman]

nice animal but I would say, and as a science guy you will agree, that one example does not meet the burden of proof in a scientific experiment. I would also say that across a large data set what Ashby studies recommend will be incredibly more reliable than than this setup on large game. there is no question.

no, I would have needed to shot several to get a sample rate. but we did kill three of them. not one setup was over 500gr. I bet FOC was not over 14% max.

I wished I had been recording data back then. I never dreamed I would be this deep into the physics of archery back when I shot that animal.

as far as Ashby his data is great for shooting low-energy trad setups at 20 yards. His data is no good for compound setups. I hope that the foundation is testing with compounds and are going to produce the data. There have been no updates since 2008.

[Tom]

no, I would have needed to shot several to get a sample rate. but we did kill three of them. not one setup was over 500gr. I bet FOC was not over 14% max.

I wished I had been recording data back then. I never dreamed I would be this deep into the physics of archery back when I shot that animal.

as far as Ashby his data is great for shooting low-energy trad setups at 20 yards. His data is no good for compound setups. I hope that the foundation is testing with compounds and are going to produce the data. There have been no updates since 2008.

does the physics change from a low energy trad set up to a fast bow if the only variable that changes is FPS??

[enewman]

Yes, with low energy, we need more mass. With higher energy, we don't need the same amount of mass.

This is why even for compound bows with low draw weight and short draw length, we need more mass. Broadheads play a major factor in penetration. That's a different post.

I liked how you asked that. I don't think physics changes, but how we use it does.

We know from Ashby's studies that we have to increase mass to gain penetration. Somewhere, and no one that I know has tested. There will be a point that a lighter arrow with the correct amount of energy will penetrate and a heavy arrow with low energy.

let me look at something.

[enewman]

does the physics change from a low energy trad set up to a fast bow if the only variable that changes is FPS??

This is from Ashby 2005 part 4. I didn't read I just pulled the chart for this post.

let's look at the 384gr at 78.59ke. vs the564 gr at 35.42 ke.

that means with a bow shooting 35ke it took a difference of 46.875% difference in mass to match penetration.

we can also see that a 451gr arrow with a difference in mass of 17.44% compared to the 384gr arrow. that 55.68ke was not enough to equal penetration of the 384gr

now look at the 384 vs the 658. How did that arrow out penetrate with less KE and momentum? Mass. there is a difference in mass of 71.35%

[enewman]

here you need to read 2005 update part 6. has he made changes to the arrows, but it still shows what a lighter arrow with high KE does compare to the heavier arrow (first 4)

just imagine what that 500gr would have done if tested at 78KE

[muddyfuzzy]

Here is what you heavy foc people don’t get. Yes a giant heavy arrow will penetrate more. But penetration does no good if your not hitting the animal where your aiming. Therefore there is a happy medium between speed and arrow weight. And if you look at most successful bowhunters who hunt animals all over the world they are all shooing 380-510 grains. No really good bowhunter is shooting 600+ grains. You guys should really look at what guys that are killing critters every year are shooting and stop being gay with ranch fairy


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I get it just fine…. You and “you people” and what not….


[emoji1662]

[Beargrasstx]

All this pissing on a bowhunting site for everyone to agree that the heavier arrow shot out of the same bow setup will out penetrate the lighter arrow. We just want to kill things as quickly as possible. Yes, shot placement is numero uno on the list. However, some of us have not been perfect or shoot out of tall trees with a steep incline and may have hit some shoulder or humerous bone. Heavy arrow with (insert fancy words here - more inertia, KE, and MOMENTUM will break through that bone and put 2 holes through the animal to bleed out hopefully faster.

All hunters care about is humanely, ethically, and quickly killing their prey. Now if I had a 30 in draw length I wouldn't be as concerned about heavy arrows. However, I think there is real benefit for draw lengths 28in and lower to utilize an arrow 470grains and up.

Now, can we get back to drinking whiskey, having a 3D contest at camp, and killing some animals?

[enewman]

All this pissing on a bowhunting site for everyone to agree that the heavier arrow shot out of the same bow setup will out penetrate the lighter arrow. We just want to kill things as quickly as possible. Yes, shot placement is numero uno on the list. However, some of us have not been perfect or shoot out of tall trees with a steep incline and may have hit some shoulder or humerous bone. Heavy arrow with (insert fancy words here - more inertia, KE, and MOMENTUM will break through that bone and put 2 holes through the animal to bleed out hopefully faster.

All hunters care about is humanely, ethically, and quickly killing their prey. Now if I had a 30 in draw length I wouldn't be as concerned about heavy arrows. However, I think there is real benefit for draw lengths 28in and lower to utilize an arrow 470grains and up.

Now, can we get back to drinking whiskey, having a 3D contest at camp, and killing some animals?

I will be drinking whiskey and hunting next month. I do not shoot 3d.

I do apologize. I forget on certain sites people do not care nor want to learn about physics of archery. They just like to be told what to shoot, not learn why. That is why I don’t come to this site much anymore. Years ago this was the only site To come to and we had great post. Some that lasted for weeks. We got into the deep of things. Problem today is people don’t want to take the time to learn. They want instant gratification. Truly sad. This is why our country is changing and one day we will be a social country.

[lovemylegacy]

Not looking to start an argument and I’m sure this has been discussed but is there a perfect middle ground to building an arrow that has good weight up front that will still allow me to reach out to long ranges while I’m practicing. I’ve gone down the YouTube rabbit hole watching videos from ranch fairy to Josh bowmar and it’s got me itching to build some custom arrows

Don't worry about it brother, we will argue the time of day on TBH.

Threads like these are at the minimum, entertaining. Most replies are info filled, very knowledgeable to say the least.

Honestly, do the arrow building research yourself, don't take second hand info as gospel. Match it to your quarry.

Just remember 2 things, Accuracy combined with a sharp broadhead is paramount! Regardless of your arrow weight/FOC.