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Old 11-30-2018, 04:16 PM   #1
jerp
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Default Amber Guyger indicted for murder? Wow.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/sp.../287-619078538

All I can figure is there must have been evidence presented to the grand jury that contradicted her story. Manslaughter and a long prison sentence is what I was expecting - but murder?
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Old 11-30-2018, 04:23 PM   #2
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I figured manslaughter and she would probably serve a couple of years maybe 3 at the most if she got 10 years or less. I believe murder is going to be very difficult to prove especially since the Texas Rangers were for manslaughter charges. I believe this is a political farce already by the way it's being explained by Faith Johnson. Nothing to now but let it go through the (politically motivated) process.

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Old 11-30-2018, 04:36 PM   #3
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Didnt she murder an unarmed guy sitting on his own sofa, or did she manslaughter him. It could have been any of you.
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Old 11-30-2018, 04:38 PM   #4
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nm
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Old 11-30-2018, 04:54 PM   #5
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Quote:
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Didnt she murder an unarmed guy sitting on his own sofa, or did she manslaughter him. It could have been any of you.
So you think murder charges are the appropriate charges?

I spouted off what I did based on the limited information that is available to us as well as the press conference. There may be some shocking information that comes out during the trial that may justify the charges but I would be surprised. It was stated in the press conference that the city of Dallas in special prosecutor some such or another had interviewed over 300 Witnesses and implied that the Texas Rangers did not do that. Just that statement alone sounds utterly ridiculous to me. I have a lot more faith in the Texas Rangers gathering all the information and putting the case together to present to the district attorney than the Dallas politicians.



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Old 11-30-2018, 05:34 PM   #6
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I would think proving murder as legally defined is going to be high bar for prosecutors. I guess they must have evidence not yet made public. I am not an attorney but isn't there danger in overreaching for a murder conviction?
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Old 11-30-2018, 05:41 PM   #7
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I figured manslaughter and she would probably serve a couple of years maybe 3 at the most if she got 10 years or less. I believe murder is going to be very difficult to prove especially since the Texas Rangers were for manslaughter charges. I believe this is a political farce already by the way it's being explained by Faith Johnson. Nothing to now but let it go through the (politically motivated) process.

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I agree with this ^
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:10 PM   #8
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They'll been a plea bargain
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:44 PM   #9
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I listened to some of the press conference. A question was asked about the difference in murder and manslaughter. She said the difference was explained, and the evidence delivered, and the grand jury came out with murder. I have always felt like there was a lot more to this than we have heard. I guess we will find out when they try her. Be interesting I bet.
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:45 PM   #10
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I'm wondering why they let Botham John's family testify before the Grand Jury? What facts could they provide? Seems to me it let a lot of emotion into the fact finding proceedings.

Last edited by Froggy; 11-30-2018 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 11-30-2018, 07:27 PM   #11
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Maybe they went with a murder charge knowing it won't stick?

I do find it odd that she doesn't know which apartment was hers. Killing an innocent person sitting in their own house is pretty bad.
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Old 11-30-2018, 07:30 PM   #12
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Most key aspect I heard in news story was that a new DA will have the case going forward.
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Old 11-30-2018, 08:49 PM   #13
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There are plenty of cases that were overcharged, likely due to their high profile, that ended with not guilty verdicts when a lesser charge may have gotten a conviction. Zimmerman and Casey Anthony come to mind.
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Old 11-30-2018, 09:33 PM   #14
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If I walked into your house and shot you dead, I’d get murder charge.
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Old 11-30-2018, 11:04 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ironman View Post
Maybe they went with a murder charge knowing it won't stick?

I do find it odd that she doesn't know which apartment was hers. Killing an innocent person sitting in their own house is pretty bad.
And the highly improbable coincidence that the one time she goes to the wrong apartment, the door just happens to have been left ajar (as she claims)?

Let's clear up legal definitions here. Per Texas penal code title 5 chapter 19

Sec. 19.02. MURDER.

(b) A person commits an offense if he:

(1) intentionally or knowingly causes the death of an individual;

(2) intends to cause serious bodily injury and commits an act clearly dangerous to human life that causes the death of an individual; or

(3) commits or attempts to commit a felony, other than manslaughter, and in the course of and in furtherance of the commission or attempt, or in immediate flight from the commission or attempt, he commits or attempts to commit an act clearly dangerous to human life that causes the death of an individual.

Sec. 19.04. MANSLAUGHTER. (a) A person commits an offense if he recklessly causes the death of an individual.

So basically the difference is intent. According to her statement, she shot him on purpose, not on accident (recklessly). That's murder in Texas by definition 1 or 2. You'll notice pre-meditation is not required.

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Old 12-01-2018, 03:45 AM   #16
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The shooting was investigated and specific evidence and facts that we the public aren't aware of were presented to the grand jury. Until those facts are known to the public people should stop making assumptions as to what transpired.

Prayers up to those involved and the family of the deceased.
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Old 12-01-2018, 11:18 AM   #17
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The issue does turn on "intent," alright, but what can and should be argued is just "who" she intended to kill. It's unlikely that she intended to kill the church choir member; rather, she intended to kill an intruder in what she thought was her apartment, laying in wait to do her harm. It's tragic that these two possibilities represented the same person.

This presumes that the generally known facts are basically accurate. It would also seem to conform with the recommendations of the Texas Rangers, based on their investigation.


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Old 12-01-2018, 11:54 AM   #18
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I'm wondering why they let Botham John's family testify before the Grand Jury? What facts could they provide? Seems to me it let a lot of emotion into the fact finding proceedings.
To play on the emotions is the only explaination. "Oh, my boy was a good boy," in order to get the murder indictment.

A lot of my friends are defense attorneys in Dallas County and say it is one political screw up.

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Old 12-01-2018, 12:08 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by DFWPI View Post
To play on the emotions is the only explaination. "Oh, my boy was a good boy," in order to get the murder indictment.

A lot of my friends are defense attorneys in Dallas County and say it is one political screw up.

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Not that a persons character should matter in the event they’re murdered, but he wasn’t just a good guy, he was an excellent guy.

The screw up was when she went into his apartment and killed him.

I hope she goes away for a long, long time. Anyone else would.
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:22 PM   #20
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So you think murder charges are the appropriate charges?

I spouted off what I did based on the limited information that is available to us as well as the press conference. There may be some shocking information that comes out during the trial that may justify the charges but I would be surprised. It was stated in the press conference that the city of Dallas in special prosecutor some such or another had interviewed over 300 Witnesses and implied that the Texas Rangers did not do that. Just that statement alone sounds utterly ridiculous to me. I have a lot more faith in the Texas Rangers gathering all the information and putting the case together to present to the district attorney than the Dallas politicians.



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Special prosecutors aren’t politicians.

Also, won’t the lesser charge of manslaughter be included at trial in case they don’t get the murder conviction?
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:23 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by DFWPI View Post
To play on the emotions is the only explaination. "Oh, my boy was a good boy," in order to get the murder indictment.

A lot of my friends are defense attorneys in Dallas County and say it is one political screw up.

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What do you expect uninvolved defense attorneys to say? They have nothing else at this point to hang their hats on.
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:26 PM   #22
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Special prosecutors aren’t politicians.

Also, won’t the lesser charge of manslaughter be included at trial in case they don’t get the murder conviction?
Looks like that can only happen if you're charged with capital murder:

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/D.../htm/PE.19.htm

And based upon manslaughter and murder both being listed under "criminal homicide", I'd say you can't be tried for them together for a single death, or tried for another if one fails (double jeopardy). But I'm no lawyer.

Last edited by sir shovelhands; 12-01-2018 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:27 PM   #23
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Not that a persons character should matter in the event they’re murdered, but he wasn’t just a good guy, he was an excellent guy.

The screw up was when she went into his apartment and killed him.

I hope she goes away for a long, long time. Anyone else would.
Well, probably so, BUT, GJs are there to listen to facts. Parents were not at the scene, therefore, have NO facts and should not hvae been allowed to testify. PERIOD....

And, I am not saying she was right or wrong, as I was not there, did not witness anything and did not investigate anything. But, I do know some of the investigators that work for the DA, and although they are friends, they couldn't investigate their way out of a wet paperbag with openings on both ends. That is why they are working where they are. And to say the DAs office interviewed 300 witnesses is BS. They may have spoken with 300 people, but these people aren't witnesses to the incident.

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Old 12-01-2018, 12:29 PM   #24
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What do you expect uninvolved defense attorneys to say? They have nothing else at this point to hang their hats on.
Well, maybe, maybe not. But most defense attorneys were prosecutors in their former lives, and some were even cops and went to law school while working the job.

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Old 12-01-2018, 12:39 PM   #25
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What do you expect uninvolved defense attorneys to say? They have nothing else at this point to hang their hats on.
Although far fetched, but lets say that you, as a firefighter, had a fire at your home that killed little Johnny's cat, and I am using cat because I want this to sound as silly as possible. And little Johnny's parents are all up in arms, belong to PETA, lifelong members of SPCA and worship cats. And the fire was because you left the candle lit in the bathroom because you had just finished your business after making a pot of firehouse chilly and demolishing it.

Now, as a former or current FF, you know better, or should have known better, to leave an unattended candle, lit in an enclosed area where there were possibly some exploives, toxic fumes lingering. They feel you should be prosecuted for animal abuse, cruelty to animals, blah blah blah.....

Its a BS accident, or so you thought until Catwoman shows up to GJ and testifies with facts about you being a cat hater, and she knows this because the other cats in the neighborhood have told her about you.


Blah blah blah

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Old 12-01-2018, 12:43 PM   #26
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Special prosecutors aren’t politicians.

Also, won’t the lesser charge of manslaughter be included at trial in case they don’t get the murder conviction?
When you work directly under a district attorney that is an elected official there's politics involved. What little bit I've heard is that they can go for murder and if it's not provable then they can go to a lesser charge but I don't know that to be a fact so take it with a grain of salt.

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Old 12-01-2018, 12:49 PM   #27
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What she did was tragic. For everyone!
She will get punished and already has to quite an extent. It's gonna be with her the rest of her life. On top of this Dallas is also using her as a sacrificial lamb since it's a white on black case. Of this there is no doubt.
I'm glad the indictment was for murder since it sets the bar so high for any jury to convict. Maybe too high and that's in her favor. It ain't over by any means.
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Old 12-01-2018, 01:09 PM   #28
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What she did was tragic. For everyone!
She will get punished and already has to quite an extent. It's gonna be with her the rest of her life. On top of this Dallas is also using her as a sacrificial lamb since it's a white on black case. Of this there is no doubt.
I'm glad the indictment was for murder since it sets the bar so high for any jury to convict. Maybe too high and that's in her favor. It ain't over by any means.
How has she been punished?
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Old 12-01-2018, 04:00 PM   #29
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If I walked into your house and shot you dead, I’d get murder charge.
Hush now! That is too much like right.
Prayers to the family.

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Old 12-01-2018, 04:27 PM   #30
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maybe they went with a murder charge knowing it won't stick?.


bingo
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Old 12-01-2018, 04:29 PM   #31
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the trial will appease the people that want her punished, and they won’t raise cane when she’s found not guilty
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Old 12-01-2018, 08:54 PM   #32
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For some reason I feel like they had a prior involvement.
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Old 12-02-2018, 10:10 AM   #33
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I hoped for manslaughter and she would probably serve a couple of years maybe 3 at the most if she got 10 years or less. I hope murder is going to be very difficult to prove especially since the Texas Rangers were for manslaughter charges. I believe this is a political farce already by the way it's being explained by Faith Johnson. Nothing to now but let it go through the (politically motivated) process.

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FIFY
It's only politically charged because the outcome isn't what you wanted it to be

When that cop shot the guy on his knees 30 yards away in fort worth and lied and said his shotgun "malfunctioned" but then recanted and said he flat out just shot the guy, was that politically motivated?

There seems to be a lot of "accidents" involving scared cops shooting ppl with guns.

Simply put, if you don't have the gonads then you shouldn't sign up for the job.
Why would someone who is afraid of the sight of blood or is a germaphobe sign up to be a surgeon?

She made a mistake so she must pay the price. Even if it is with her life or freedom. There is a dead guy who already paid the price of Guyger's mistake.
His family missed their first thanksgiving without him while I'm sure Guyger enjoyed it with hers.

Think about that.
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Old 12-02-2018, 10:28 AM   #34
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Read a this morning article on her. Not looking good.................
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Old 12-02-2018, 10:31 AM   #35
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My take on it....

Of course not all details have been released to public but maybe the GJ honed in on and didn't believe the "I was too tired and out of my mind" after working 12 hours instead of 8 hours like 80% of other Americans.

How many on here work the dupont schedule or 14/7 have forgotten what their house/apartment looks like?

Jean had a red welcome mat at his door, Guyger didn't.
Why would a burglar place a door mat in front of your door and leave it ajar while robbing you?

***why was Jean's family allowed to testify in front of GJ? Maybe so they could explain how be had a OCD about locking doors and that he NEVER would leave a door unlocked and doubly never prop his front door open for ANY reason.

Maybe the GJ saw a video that was made from the walk from Guyger's car to Jean's apartment and also a video of Guyger's car to her own apartment and thought that there is VERY LITTLE POSSIBILITY that a person that has been living in this building for X number of months could not only make that long of a walk from car to front door but then also still mistake Jean's apartment for their own given the multiple clues you were on the wrong floor including Jean's red door mat in front.

Maybe they got toxicology report back and Guyger had been drinking?


Finally, if you're sitting on your couch on a Monday night in your boxers watching the Cowboys getting their brains beat out by the Texans and unknown woman walks in your front door and you jump up to go see what's going on then she starts screaming "what are you doing in my house?!?!? FREEZE HANDS UP!!!" what would do?

In my case I'd be in ja....
Nevermind
Lets just say if it is dark outside and late at night and my entire house is locked down and someone walks through my front door then that person would have "problems" as yhis couldn't really happen at my house so I'd figure they are trying to do me and my family harm.



Role reversal,
Jean comes home from a 16 hour shift of doing accounting work.
Goes to Guyger's apartment thinks it is his own and kills her, what should his charge be?
I doubt many would expect manslaughter with 3 to 7 released in 2.5 for good behavior
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Old 12-02-2018, 10:56 AM   #36
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Oh and I forgot,
Those apartments have electronic door locks that take datetime stamps of when a e-Key tries to open it

Jean's door lock was sent to the company to extract that info and I'm sure that data was given to the GJ to see if it aligned with Guyger's story that has changed in the media a few times coupled with Guyger's 911 call not being released to the public.

It's best to wait and see but all of this doesn't stack up well for her.

No way I think she should do any less than five years for taking a life.

Bartenders that serve someone 3 too many shots and that person goes out and kills someone in a DUI will get more time than that
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Old 12-02-2018, 02:26 PM   #37
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Correct charge IMHO.
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Old 12-02-2018, 02:31 PM   #38
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I do not know, but have a suspicion/sense we will discover she's a psycho.
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Old 12-02-2018, 02:39 PM   #39
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I do not know, but have a suspicion/sense we will discover she's a psycho.
True dat. At least once a month assuming she still has all her parts.
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Old 12-02-2018, 02:57 PM   #40
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If she went in his apartment on purpose - intending on killing him - what could be the possible motive? It sounds like a lot of people think that’s what happened and she used the “wrong apartment” story as cover. That’s possible I suppose (weirder things have happened) but it seems pretty far-fetched. Surely she knew that even if everyone bought that story she would still do hard time.
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Old 12-02-2018, 03:44 PM   #41
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FIFY
It's only politically charged because the outcome isn't what you wanted it to be

When that cop shot the guy on his knees 30 yards away in fort worth and lied and said his shotgun "malfunctioned" but then recanted and said he flat out just shot the guy, was that politically motivated?

There seems to be a lot of "accidents" involving scared cops shooting ppl with guns.

Simply put, if you don't have the gonads then you shouldn't sign up for the job.
Why would someone who is afraid of the sight of blood or is a germaphobe sign up to be a surgeon?

She made a mistake so she must pay the price. Even if it is with her life or freedom. There is a dead guy who already paid the price of Guyger's mistake.
His family missed their first thanksgiving without him while I'm sure Guyger enjoyed it with hers.

Think about that.
Texansfan I don't need you to fify. My statement stands on its own. Stop being a idiot.

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Old 12-02-2018, 05:55 PM   #42
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If she went in his apartment on purpose - intending on killing him - what could be the possible motive? It sounds like a lot of people think that’s what happened and she used the “wrong apartment” story as cover. That’s possible I suppose (weirder things have happened) but it seems pretty far-fetched. Surely she knew that even if everyone bought that story she would still do hard time.

That's what makes me feel like prior involvement.
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Old 12-02-2018, 09:52 PM   #43
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Maybe they went with a murder charge knowing it won't stick?

I do find it odd that she doesn't know which apartment was hers. Killing an innocent person sitting in their own house is pretty bad.
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bingo
tactical
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Old 12-03-2018, 03:19 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by double bogey View Post
That's what makes me feel like prior involvement.
I agree...there's got to be more to this story...

I thought I heard something about the two of them having a previous "relations"?
Didn't one neighbor report having seen her going in & out of his apartment late at night weeks prior?
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Old 12-03-2018, 03:33 PM   #45
Pkripper
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I would think proving murder as legally defined is going to be high bar for prosecutors. I guess they must have evidence not yet made public. I am not an attorney but isn't there danger in overreaching for a murder conviction?
That may be the point.

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Old 12-03-2018, 03:36 PM   #46
Pkripper
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Spend a morning in the Dallas Jury Pool and you will see how this could happen. All specualtion until all evedince is put forward.

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Old 12-03-2018, 04:05 PM   #47
jer_james
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I still can't even imagine - being in your home and just shot ...
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:28 PM   #48
Man
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I still can't even imagine - being in your home and just shot ...
Me neither. Couldn't imagine making that mistake either. I would probably off myself before showing up to trial.
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:31 PM   #49
batmaninja
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Originally Posted by texansfan View Post
Oh and I forgot,
Those apartments have electronic door locks that take datetime stamps of when a e-Key tries to open it
I read this too. The article below explains it better with a video.

But you would also have to think that Amber knew all of this, and knew that it would make her story look sketchy if she tried to say the door was already open or that she had a master key to the complex.

https://newsone.com/3827178/botham-j...artment-locks/

So, how did she get into somebody else's apartment? Maybe she had a key to his apartment.......
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:32 PM   #50
DRT
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Maybe the family testified they were an estranged couple of that she had been stikg or harassing their son.

Gary
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