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Old 09-26-2019, 07:27 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ClearcreekDC View Post
Can you not just post the law that says they are illegal. I promise I will go away.... It just seems the only meat and potatoes of this post are opinions... and we know how much ground those hold.
Is it legal to possess an unregistered silence or

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Old 09-26-2019, 07:30 PM   #52
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And If it's not illegal to purchase solvent traps, why would the ATF it's shutting solvent trap dealers down and visiting everybody on their customer list who Has bought a solvent trap

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Link to law? A lot of companies get shut down for giving recipes when they get shopped. I will say it again. If someone will just copy paste a law that says Im wrong I promise Ill be done with the subject. Im patiently waiting.
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Old 09-26-2019, 07:31 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by SC-Texas View Post
Is it legal to possess an unregistered silence or

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100 percent correct. Im discussing solvent traps. Please see above. Not a silencer nor suppressor.
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Old 09-26-2019, 07:33 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by ClearcreekDC View Post
100 percent correct. Im discussing solvent traps. Please see above. Not a silencer nor suppressor.
Are silencer parts considered unregistered silencers

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Old 09-26-2019, 07:36 PM   #55
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A solvent trap wont suppress anything until modified/drilled requiring a Form 1 approval prior. Will you please just post the law that backs everything up so we can move on? I feel weird having to ask 3 times.
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Old 09-26-2019, 07:38 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by ClearcreekDC View Post
A solvent trap wont suppress anything until modified/drilled requiring a Form 1 approval prior. Will you please just post the law that backs everything up so we can move on? I feel weird having to ask 3 times.
Are silencer parts considered unregistered silencers

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Old 09-26-2019, 07:39 PM   #57
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A solvent trap wont suppress anything until modified/drilled requiring a Form 1 approval prior. Will you please just post the law that backs everything up so we can move on? I feel weird having to ask 3 times.
I feel weird dealing with your cognitive issues.

I am identifying where your issue lies

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Old 09-26-2019, 07:39 PM   #58
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They aren't silencer parts LOL. I rest my case until someone can post a law that says im incorrect.
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Old 09-26-2019, 07:43 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by ClearcreekDC View Post
I dont have a form 1 pending at all. Can you copy/paste the law that says solvent traps are illegal? I dont care about your interpretation (no offense). I would like you to state the law. I understand you are a big wig lawyer with a great following. I just want the law posted that says solvent traps are illegal. Also how old are all these prior experiences with clients you keep mentioning? Anything in last 4 years?
Why not call the ATF yourself ? Ask to speak with the senior agent in the office and request that he/she provide you with the information you’re looking for.

Be honest and tell the agent you already purchased the “DIY homemade suppressor” parts and want clarification on the law.

This might help get you the 411 you want (972) 509-1201
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Old 09-26-2019, 07:43 PM   #60
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They aren't silencer parts LOL. I rest my case until someone can post a law that says im incorrect.
Lol. You really dont get it but I'm cool. I do criminal defense also.

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Old 09-26-2019, 07:43 PM   #61
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I feel weird dealing with your cognitive issues.

I am identifying where your issue lies

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We prob went to school for about the same amount of years if I had to guess. Just post the law. We all have opinions (you know the saying) I want to see a law that says i'm wrong.
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Old 09-26-2019, 07:44 PM   #62
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Why not call the ATF yourself ? Ask to speak with the senior agent in the office and request that he/she provide you with the information you’re looking for.

Be honest and tell the agent you already purchased the “DIY homemade suppressor” parts and want clarification on the law.

This might help get you the 411 you want (972) 509-1201
Why would I? Im not confused and I know exactly what the law says and have an approved Form 1. Im not trying to reinvent the wheel here.
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Old 09-26-2019, 07:44 PM   #63
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Why not call the ATF yourself ? Ask to speak with the senior agent in the office and request that he/she provide you with the information you’re looking for.



Be honest and tell the agent you already purchased the “DIY homemade suppressor” parts and want clarification on the law.



This might help get you the 411 you want (972) 509-1201
Exactly. Lol. The Form 1 Mafia at its best.

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Old 09-26-2019, 07:59 PM   #64
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We prob went to school for about the same amount of years if I had to guess. Just post the law. We all have opinions (you know the saying) I want to see a law that says i'm wrong.
I'm happy we both went to school for a long time. That's not the point. It just happens that My opinion is the correct one in this case. I've researched the law. I have read the letters. I have dealt with the aTF when they go around collecting these solvent trap kits.

I posted the link to the Chore Boy brass pads letter. That really lays the theory out.

You know that silencer parts are considered unregistered silencers by the BATFE.

This is why they are shutting down pervayors of solvent trap kits and prosecuting the owners.

"The article said the ATF searched the source code of the website itself — a technique it compared to running a background check for a website — and discovered that the proprietor had included terms like “silencer” and “suppressor” in the metadata. That means that if a person typed the keywords in a search engine, Darkside Defense’s website had a better chance of appearing in the results, the internal newsletter said.
Agents also mined social media and executed search warrants on e-mail accounts and IP addresses to figure out who had bought the solvent traps from Darkside Defense, the newsletter said. Some of the devices ended up in the hands of people who are prohibited from possessing firearms, the newsletter said"


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Old 09-26-2019, 08:05 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by SC-Texas View Post
I'm happy we both went to school for a long time. That's not the point. It just happens that My opinion is the correct one in this case. I've researched the law. I have read the letters. I have dealt with the aTF when they go around collecting these solvent trap kits.

I posted the link to the Chore Boy brass pads letter. That really lays the theory out.

You know that silencer parts are considered unregistered silencers by the BATFE.

This is why they are shutting down pervayors of solvent trap kits and prosecuting the owners.

"The article said the ATF searched the source code of the website itself — a technique it compared to running a background check for a website — and discovered that the proprietor had included terms like “silencer” and “suppressor” in the metadata. That means that if a person typed the keywords in a search engine, Darkside Defense’s website had a better chance of appearing in the results, the internal newsletter said.
Agents also mined social media and executed search warrants on e-mail accounts and IP addresses to figure out who had bought the solvent traps from Darkside Defense, the newsletter said. Some of the devices ended up in the hands of people who are prohibited from possessing firearms, the newsletter said"


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Link to the law? Opinions are GREAT and im glad you think your opinion is the correct one but do you have anything black and white as in a law that ive now requested 5 times that says you are right. Im well aware of what your opinion is and I know your credentials. Also any recent cases in the last 4 years regarding this matter?
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:07 PM   #66
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Link to the law? Opinions are GREAT and im glad you think your opinion is the correct one but do you have anything black and white as in a law that ive now requested 5 times that says you are right. Im well aware of what your opinion is and I know your credentials. Also any recent cases in the last 4 years regarding this matter?
As said before
Law. Unregistered silencers are ILLEGAL
That's the law.

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Old 09-26-2019, 08:08 PM   #67
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Link to the law? Opinions are GREAT and im glad you think your opinion is the correct one but do you have anything black and white as in a law that ive now requested 5 times that says you are right. Im well aware of what your opinion is and I know your credentials. Also any recent cases in the last 4 years regarding this matter?
And I dont think my opinion is the correct one.

It simply is the correct one.

You are simply wrong. . . .even with your massive education. Still wrong

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Old 09-26-2019, 08:08 PM   #68
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As said before
Law. Unregistered silencers are ILLEGAL
That's the law.

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They sure are! That we can agree on!
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:09 PM   #69
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And I dont think my opinion is the correct one.

It simply is the correct one.

You are simply wrong. . . .even with your massive education. Still wrong

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I promise I will agree with you just as soon as you back it up with facts and not opinions.
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:15 PM   #70
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I promise I will agree with you just as soon as you back it up with facts and not opinions.
Dont really care. I posted the law it's a free country, you are free to be wrong and I'll be happy to take your money when you need an attorney. Good luck

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Old 09-26-2019, 08:28 PM   #71
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Dont really care. I posted the law it's a free country, you are free to be wrong and I'll be happy to take your money when you need an attorney. Good luck

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Ill be just fine...
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:32 PM   #72
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Lol. You really dont get it but I'm cool. I do criminal defense also.

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That’s funny. IDC who you are.


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Old 09-26-2019, 08:49 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by ClearcreekDC View Post
Never purchased from dark side defense thank goodness! Im looking for written laws not cases where they shut down websites.
Well apparently you missed it or can’t read so I’ll copy it directly from the link I sent you.

“ATF has determined that these “solvent traps” are, in fact, silencers. Silencers are firearms that are subject to the licensing and registration provisions of the National Firearms Act (NFA). Title 26, United States Code, Sections 5801-5872.”

I must be missing the part where the ATF states “solvent traps only from Dark Side Defense” in that paragraph.
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:53 PM   #74
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Lol. You really dont get it but I'm cool. I do criminal defense also.

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Maybe he needs your card?

Thanks for the reply earlier.
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:54 PM   #75
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Well apparently you missed it or can’t read so I’ll copy it directly from the link I sent you.

“ATF has determined that these “solvent traps” are, in fact, silencers. Silencers are firearms that are subject to the licensing and registration provisions of the National Firearms Act (NFA). Title 26, United States Code, Sections 5801-5872.”

I must be missing the part where the ATF states “solvent traps only from Dark Side Defense” in that paragraph.
I would focus on the "these" part ref the solvent traps from the company in question. SMH
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:55 PM   #76
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Lol. You really dont get it but I'm cool. I do criminal defense.
Just shot beer across the room dang it, now I have to clean it up.
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:56 PM   #77
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Just shot beer across the room dang it, now I have to clean it up.
Why would I want someone to defend me that cant even post the law that backs up their "opinion"?
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:56 PM   #78
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I would focus on the "these" part ref the solvent traps from the company in question. SMH
You think DSD was manufacturing them or sourcing them from the same suppliers used by all the other “solvent trap” companies? S-M-H.
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:28 PM   #79
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Alright, seems to be half time in the ****** stretch so I'll interject. Both of y'all just seem to be dancing around the wording trying to be "right".

The question that needs to be answered is when does a "solvent trap" become an "unlicensed suppressor part"?

It can't be it is always an unlicensed suppressor part. Some of the oldest companies are still selling them. At least one of them has been shut down, investigated and was back to selling the shortly thereafter.

IF the answer is indeed, "they are always unregistered silencer parts", how does the form 1 even exist? Nobody could buy tubing legally to build one.

If the answer is "when you intend to build a suppressor from it", how can anybody with a legit machine shop possess any raw materials while waiting for their form 1 to be approved? Clearly the intent would be to make a suppressor from it if they're waiting on a form 1 approval.

I believe SC-Texas when he says people are being forced to turn them over, but has an end user actually been charged for having an undrilled solvent trap or is this just strong arming by the BATF knowing nobody is going to risk fighting it?
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:32 PM   #80
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Alright, seems to be half time in the ****** stretch so I'll interject. Both of y'all just seem to be dancing around the wording trying to be "right".

The question that needs to be answered is when does a "solvent trap" become an "unlicensed suppressor part"?

It can't be it is always an unlicensed suppressor part. Some of the oldest companies are still selling them. At least one of them has been shut down, investigated and was back to selling the shortly thereafter.

IF the answer is indeed, "they are always unregistered silencer parts", how does the form 1 even exist? Nobody could buy tubing legally to build one.

If the answer is "when you intend to build a suppressor from it", how can anybody with a legit machine shop possess any raw materials while waiting for their form 1 to be approved? Clearly the intent would be to make a suppressor from it if they're waiting on a form 1 approval.

I believe SC-Texas when he says people are being forced to turn them over, but has an end user actually been charged for having an undrilled solvent trap or is this just strong arming by the BATF knowing nobody is going to risk fighting it?


Really great points. How could we even have Form 1s. Great great point!
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:32 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by adam_p View Post
Alright, seems to be half time in the ****** stretch so I'll interject. Both of y'all just seem to be dancing around the wording trying to be "right".

The question that needs to be answered is when does a "solvent trap" become an "unlicensed suppressor part"?

It can't be it is always an unlicensed suppressor part. Some of the oldest companies are still selling them. At least one of them has been shut down, investigated and was back to selling the shortly thereafter.

IF the answer is indeed, "they are always unregistered silencer parts", how does the form 1 even exist? Nobody could buy tubing legally to build one.

If the answer is "when you intend to build a suppressor from it", how can anybody with a legit machine shop possess any raw materials while waiting for their form 1 to be approved? Clearly the intent would be to make a suppressor from it if they're waiting on a form 1 approval.

I believe SC-Texas when he says people are being forced to turn them over, but has an end user actually been charged for having an undrilled solvent trap or is this just strong arming by the BATF knowing nobody is going to risk fighting it?
My guess is the latter, but I am of firm opinion that the ATF is just a massive collection of tyrants.
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:34 PM   #82
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Quick somebody write a letter to the ATF
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:44 PM   #83
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Some of the oldest companies are still selling them. At least one of them has been shut down, investigated and was back to selling the shortly thereafter.
The majority of the older companies aren't listing cups, cores, freeze plugs or baffles... If they are dumb enough to do that it's only a matter of time until their time is up.

The letter that was circulating around at the time this was all going down is below.

ATF Letter

The stated intent of a solvent trap is to catch and trap gun cleaning solvent during bore cleaning operations commonly performed on firearms. Solvent traps do attach to the muzzle of a firearm but do not have any design features intended to allow a bullet to pass through them.
Since as originally manufactured they are not intended to silence, muffle or diminish the report of a portable firearm they are not silencers as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(24) and thus also are not firearms as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) or 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(7).
However, if the solvent trapped was redesigned or utilized to assemble a device for silencing, muffling or diminishing the report of a portable firearm or if intent was demonstrated to use the device for silencing, muffling or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, the solvent trap would be classified as a “firearm silencer” as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(24) and as a “firearm” as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(C) and 26 U.S.C. § 5845(a)(7).
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:57 PM   #84
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Piggy backing off that.... If I buy a solvent trap my intent is not for that solvent trap to be used for silencing or muffling (It physically wont work for that.) Now if I drill that solvent trap out my intent for the solvent trap becomes to silence or muffle. If my materials do not have holes in them I have ZERO intent for them to silence or muffle.
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Old 09-26-2019, 10:15 PM   #85
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^^thats my thoughts too.

If I go to the hardware store and buy a shotgun with an 18” barrel and a hacksaw at the same time, am I getting arrested for “intent” to make an illegal firearm? I’d guess not.
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Old 09-26-2019, 10:45 PM   #86
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In my illogical way of thinking if I bought a device from a reputable dealer that sells that device for it's intended purpose then you should be ok. But if you buy a device from a shady dealer that sells other devices and has designs for building illegal devices then you probably have other plans for that device.If I have a maglight I'm probably ok, but if beside that maglight I have a book called how to make a suppressor from a maglight written by Rick Grimes then I'm probably going to be in trouble.
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Old 09-26-2019, 10:54 PM   #87
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Does anyone really use a “Solvent Trap” for its intended purpose?
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Old 09-26-2019, 11:22 PM   #88
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In my illogical way of thinking if I bought a device from a reputable dealer that sells that device for it's intended purpose then you should be ok. But if you buy a device from a shady dealer that sells other devices and has designs for building illegal devices then you probably have other plans for that device.If I have a maglight I'm probably ok, but if beside that maglight I have a book called how to make a suppressor from a maglight written by Rick Grimes then I'm probably going to be in trouble.
As long as u don’t kill the living... I see no obstacles in your future
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Old 09-26-2019, 11:26 PM   #89
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Does anyone really use a “Solvent Trap” for its intended purpose?
Every time I clean a rifle. Catches the patches and any spray that gets flung out with a brush.
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Old 09-26-2019, 11:58 PM   #90
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Every time I clean a rifle. Catches the patches and any spray that gets flung out with a brush.
Oh ok, I was just curious. I usually use a trash can or coke/Gatorade bottle. Guess I never saw the luster of manufactured “solvent traps”
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Old 09-27-2019, 12:35 AM   #91
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Does anyone really use a “Solvent Trap” for its intended purpose?
Nope or very seldom.


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Old 09-27-2019, 01:14 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by ClearcreekDC View Post
Really great points. How could we even have Form 1s. Great great point!
Form 1a are an application to build or make.

Once approved you may posses parts to make that silencer.

No extra parts may be kept and you cannot make new parts to repair your form 1 suppressor

I.e. you have to take it to an 07 SOT to make repairs

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Old 09-27-2019, 01:18 AM   #93
SC-Texas
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Originally Posted by TacticalCowboy View Post
^^thats my thoughts too.

If I go to the hardware store and buy a shotgun with an 18” barrel and a hacksaw at the same time, am I getting arrested for “intent” to make an illegal firearm? I’d guess not.
No. But buy a 14" barrel or cut an 18" barrel to 14" and posses an 870 and you now have an SBS even if you dont put them together.

Intent can be and often is inferred in a criminal case. You may tell everyone all day that you didn't intend to make an SBS, but the combination of the parts allows the jury to infer that you intended to make the unregistered SBS.

Same thing with a solvent trap.

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Old 09-27-2019, 01:31 AM   #94
SC-Texas
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Originally Posted by adam_p View Post
.

I believe SC-Texas when he says people are being forced to turn them over, but has an end user actually been charged for having an undrilled solvent trap or is this just strong arming by the BATF knowing nobody is going to risk fighting it?
That's a good question. Since most people turn them over. The answer is none that I have represented.

One guy came to me after the fact and had actually assembled a solvent trap into a silencer. The ATF tested it for GSR and it came back negative. They told him he would have been prosecuted if it had been positive for GSR.

They have prosecuted people for selling solvent traps. The charge was selling unregistered silencers.

They have prosecuted people for making unregistered silencers.

Candelario in Maryland

http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/news/35586

On inferring intent. Why are you using an opaque steel tube to catch solvent when. You cant tell if it's coming out clean?

A clear bottle let's you see what the patches and solvent look like and when it comes out clear. A wix fuel filter or maglite style tube doesn't. . .. .might a jury be able to infer intent right there in your choice of material?

So why does the form 1 mafia want to risk it? You aren't going to argue with the MAN when he is at your door and if you are prosecuted you will probably lose. The penalty is kind of steep.

On my end, this isn't an esoteric theoretical debate. It is what it is. The rest is just mental masturbation.

Posesion of an unregistered silencer is illegal.

Each individual silencer part is an unregistered silencer

Intent can be inferred

Read up on this.

Read up about the wipes debate

Read up about whether you can make a new baffle or end cap for your form 1 suppressor if you need to repair or just want to try a new configuration

Read up on the shoe string machinegun and the choreboy brass scrubbing pads letter if you want to read some purely absurd prose.

Read up on the possession of oil filters or even an adapter that screws on the end of your barrel and allows the attachment of a pilot filter.

I'm not saying it's not absurd. But the law is clear and intent is pretty easy to infer in this day and age.

So have a good night. Y'all have been informed and you can make informed decisions.

That is all.





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Last edited by SC-Texas; 09-27-2019 at 01:41 AM.
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Old 09-27-2019, 08:50 AM   #95
KNP16
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Did anyone answer the OP's question? I have submitted by From 1 and was doing some research as well.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:38 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by KNP16 View Post
Did anyone answer the OP's question? I have submitted by From 1 and was doing some research as well.
I forgot-What was the original question? Lol
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:52 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by big_smith View Post
The short Form 1 waits have peaked my interest. Where do y’all purchase components for a homemade suppressor. I’m wanting to build a 30cal can.
Google search.

solvent trap suppressor parts for sale

There are lots of choices. Subject to all I stated above.

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Old 09-27-2019, 11:00 AM   #98
KNP16
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Originally Posted by SC-Texas View Post
Google search.

solvent trap suppressor parts for sale

There are lots of choices. Subject to all I stated above.

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I've done a google search for solvent "suppressor" parts and have an idea of where I want to go. But trust first hand knowledge from guys here vs some joe blow off reddit or something similar. Which I think is most likely the OP's case as well.
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Old 09-27-2019, 11:58 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by SC-Texas View Post
No. But buy a 14" barrel or cut an 18" barrel to 14" and posses an 870 and you now have an SBS even if you dont put them together.

Intent can be and often is inferred in a criminal case. You may tell everyone all day that you didn't intend to make an SBS, but the combination of the parts allows the jury to infer that you intended to make the unregistered SBS.

Same thing with a solvent trap.

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I know we’re getting off topic here, but how is owning a barrel equivalent to owning an illegal SBS?

It has been well established that a guy can own one Encore frame, pistol furniture, rifle furniture, pistol barrels, and rifle barrels, and change from rifle configuration to pistol and back again without committing a felony.

The same would seem to apply if I have an AR15 rifle, and purchase a shorty upper. Just because you own individual parts doesn’t mean you made an illegal firearm.
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Old 09-27-2019, 01:22 PM   #100
Graysonhogs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacticalCowboy View Post
I know we’re getting off topic here, but how is owning a barrel equivalent to owning an illegal SBS?



It has been well established that a guy can own one Encore frame, pistol furniture, rifle furniture, pistol barrels, and rifle barrels, and change from rifle configuration to pistol and back again without committing a felony.



The same would seem to apply if I have an AR15 rifle, and purchase a shorty upper. Just because you own individual parts doesn’t mean you made an illegal firearm.


I think it falls back to intent: That ole government tactic where a team of lawyers and government agencies could prove you are a unicorn if given enough time. Right or wrong doesn’t matter, it’s about fighting a group with unlimited resources. Right doesn’t matter when fighting the man.


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