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Old 12-05-2018, 12:34 PM   #1
RickBarbee
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Default Deer Ducking Arrow

Deer Ducking Arrow.

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Even though I'm a hunter, I also enjoy simply setting & watching animals just as much.

What really turned me on to the arrow quietness theory is from watching deer, and how they react to birds flying in toward them, or closely by over them.

The deer often hear the birds coming at them, and they duck just like they do when we shoot an arrow at them.

A friend of mine, and I also started playing sound games with the deer, then comparing notes of what we were seeing when we did.
We would actually clack things together "loudly" to see what reactions we would get from them.
We seriously were making clanking clacking sounds much louder than even the loudest of bow shots.
While those sounds definitely got the deer's attention, they seldom did anything other than just look toward the direction of the sound. The closer they were the more earnest they were in their attention to the sound, and they might "violently flinch", but they seldom ducked. They just looked our way, and we conducted those tests from as close as 10 yards

That prompted me to start paying attention to the noise of my arrows in flight, and I quickly noticed, that the quieter my arrows were, the less the deer ducked, AND consequently the more success I started having with my shots.

Deer don't see well at all, but their hearing is phenomenal (to put it mildly).
There is no doubt in my mind, that they hear the arrow coming toward them long before it gets there,
and the quieter the arrow is in flight, the less likely the deer are to duck, and/or otherwise move.

Rick
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Old 12-05-2018, 01:37 PM   #2
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I agree mostly except the whole deer donít see well. The ones I hunt do


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Old 12-05-2018, 01:45 PM   #3
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So all I need is an arrow going faster than 1,125fps...... It always amazes me when I watch video of a deer ducking an arrow. Darn things are like furry ninja.


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Old 12-05-2018, 01:48 PM   #4
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Deer see movement on a scale that is far beyond he human eye. This is due to the makeup of their eyes and how wide their peripheral vision is. I believe they hear the sound and notice the movement causing their reaction. One thing is sure we will never really know what a deer can see or hear but we can make educated guesses. Less sound is good less smell is good and less movement is good.


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Old 12-05-2018, 02:04 PM   #5
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So is the difference in a shield cut feather and a parabolic cut feather significant enough in sound or arrow stabilization to choose one over the other?

Gary
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Old 12-05-2018, 05:28 PM   #6
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From the testing I have done, I can offer 4 suggestions/opinions:

(1) Parabolic fletching is quietest in flight

(2) An arrow tuned well enough to achieve good flight with a broadhead & "minimal fletching" will be quieter in flight.

(3) Minimal offset/helical will be quieter in flight

(4) Parabolic vanes are the quietest of all

(5) Thick wall, or solid shafts will produce the least amount of harmonic sounds in flight

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Old 12-05-2018, 06:16 PM   #7
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I started to order new shafts and a set of feathers as well then decided to ask first. I've been using shield cut as that is what came on the original arrows I bought. Thought about changing but don't want to sacrifice fight for a minimal sound savings.

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Old 12-05-2018, 06:22 PM   #8
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I don't know... I'm not following the logical jump, and the math doesn't work either, for the deer to have heard the arrow in flight before it heard the bow.
Since the conclusion that quiet arrows are beneficial is based on a false premise, the whole thing is a house of cards. Better to have a quiet bow.
Also, long before the arrow arrives the deer could and would have noticed movement, and even your tests suggest that a loud sound without quickly approaching movement do not alarm deer. Seems like they are more likely reacting to movement caught with their eyes than the sound of the bow.

Also your link doesn't work for me so here:

All you have to do is copy the YouTube url from your browser, paste it directly into your post, and take the "s" out of "https." Voila!

Last edited by meltingfeather; 12-05-2018 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
I don't know... I'm not following the logical jump, and the math doesn't work either, for the deer to be hearing the arrow in flight before it heard the bow.
Also your link doesn't work for me so here:
Deer Ducking The Arrow - YouTube

All you have to do is copy the YouTube url from your browser, paste it directly into your post, and take the "s" out of "https." Voila!
The deer didn't hear the arrow in flight before it heard the bow. They (both deer) heard the bow almost instantly at the shot, AND ignored that sound. Then, the deer being shot at ducked at the sound of the arrow as it got close.

Thanks for the tip on embedding the video. TBH changed something a while back, and I haven't been able to make video embed since.

Rick
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:38 PM   #10
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Think about it:
at 25 yards the sound takes 0.07 seconds to travel from the bow to the deer.
In that time the arrow has covered 13.3 ft.
The sound of the arrow at that moment will reach the deer another 0.05 seconds later, or a total of 0.12 seconds after release.
No matter how you slice it or what time period you look at, the first sound to reach the deer is the bow, not the arrow in flight.
This is easy to check with your phone on slow-mo... I've done it.
Record slow motion video from your phone adjacent to your target. You hear the bow first, then the gradually increasing sound of the arrow as it approaches.
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
The deer didn't hear the arrow in flight before it heard the bow. They (both deer) heard the bow almost instantly at the shot, AND ignored that sound. Then, the deer being shot at ducked at the sound of the arrow as it got close.
Oh I gotcha... misunderstood the first time.
Interesting theory.
I also love to watch deer and am constantly testing little things out (mostly drawing and letting off), when I'm watching non-target deer.
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
Think about it:
at 25 yards the sound takes 0.07 seconds to travel from the bow to the deer.
In that time the arrow has covered 13.3 ft.
The sound of the arrow at that moment will reach the deer another 0.05 seconds later, or a total of 0.12 seconds after release.
No matter how you slice it or what time period you look at, the first sound to reach the deer is the bow, not the arrow in flight.
This is easy to check with your phone on slow-mo... I've done it.
Record slow motion video from your phone adjacent to your target. You hear the bow first, then the gradually increasing sound of the arrow as it approaches.
That's exactly what I said - the deer heard the bow first, and ignored the sound, but when it heard the buzzing of the approaching arrow it ducked.

Rick
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:58 PM   #13
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Or saw the shaft in flight or the movement of the bow hunter or bow


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Old 12-05-2018, 07:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dkincaid View Post
Or saw the shaft in flight or the movement of the bow hunter or bow


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Possibly. I'm not saying other things could not have been in play, but for me & my thinking after observing, and testing it for a long time, they do duck the sound of the arrow.

I just watched a video on deer study two nights ago. An in depth study of their habitats, behavior, and their physical capabilities.

That study concluded, that compared to human vision, the deer are virtually blind. They primarily only see angular (horizontal, vertical, diagonal) movement , and even that movement is difficult for them to see if there isn't a good backdrop for it to contrast against.

Now, with that study in mind - an incoming arrow doesn't have much angular movement. It's likely to have some wobble, but that wobble is relatively small in scale compared to whatever backdrop there may be.

Could the deer see the arrow coming. Maybe. I won't argue it couldn't, but what I will present as pretty good food for thought is - They may not perceive the arrow as something approaching them if it is quiet (or quieter as it were).

Rick
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Old 12-05-2018, 07:37 PM   #15
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Rick, what do you suggest for getting the arrow quite?
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Old 12-05-2018, 07:38 PM   #16
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Interesting observation, Rick, about the arrow sound provoking ducking of the arrow. Seems to be little doubt that this arrow noise could be a significant factor, and worth trying to reduce -- especially considering the lightning-fast reactions of whitetails.

Also, not sure we can rule out the effect of the approaching arrow's movement. I wonder if the best solution would be to shoot as quiet a bow as possible with the quietest possible arrows AND shoot at a drastically quartering-away angle to minimize the effectiveness of the deer's extreme peripheral vision to pick up the arrow? (Basically, like a pass-rusher "blind-siding" the quarterback.)

Of course, it wouldn't be practical to put blinders on deer to "scientifically" test the peripheral vision effect. BUT, I would imagine there is plenty of video footage by hunters shooting from all angles that could be compared for the effects related to picking up arrow flight visually. The same footage would likely have audio to measure bow noise and arrow noise as well.
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Old 12-05-2018, 08:03 PM   #17
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Hereís a question I honestly donít know the answer to. It would seem to me that compound bows would shoot a quieter arrow in flight due to less paradox and typically smaller fletch and smaller broad heads. Is that flawed logic?


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Old 12-05-2018, 08:26 PM   #18
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Y'all are seriously over thinking this.

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Old 12-05-2018, 08:49 PM   #19
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Why not not like I ha e anything better to do tonight


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Old 12-05-2018, 08:57 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dkincaid View Post
Hereís a question I honestly donít know the answer to. It would seem to me that compound bows would shoot a quieter arrow in flight due to less paradox and typically smaller fletch and smaller broad heads. Is that flawed logic?


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I don't think the logic is flawed, but they are faster (generally), and although I don't know for sure, it makes sense to me, that a faster arrow might be a little louder simply due to the forces of wind resistance being increased.

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Old 12-05-2018, 09:24 PM   #21
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Blazers fly quieter than feathers though. So faster, quieter should equate to less string jumping.
Just get them close and you don't have to sweat it.
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Old 12-05-2018, 09:37 PM   #22
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I'm not trying to convince anyone.

I'm simply sharing my belief based on personal experience, and asking the following question:

Since the arrow is undoubtedly the last thing (certainly after the bow sound) the deer will hear before it strikes, why not try to make it as quiet as possible also?

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Old 12-05-2018, 09:47 PM   #23
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Not if it compromises flight stability.

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Old 12-05-2018, 09:51 PM   #24
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Shooting from the shelf doesn't lend itself to shooting blazers.

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Old 12-05-2018, 10:03 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
Not if it compromises flight stability.

Gary
I agree completely, and am not suggesting anyone do that.
I certainly won't. I just work with my tune, until I get an arrow, that does not require a lot of flecthing to stabilize the broadhead flight. Of course I take it a step further, and shoot vanes, but that too is all in the tuning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
Shooting from the shelf doesn't lend itself to shooting blazers.

Gary
None of us are shooting machines, but if we were we could use any vane from the shelf with no problems at all.

Shooting any vane from the shelf requires a real good tune.
But, even then the vanes we choose to use need to be soft & flexible enough to compensate for the occasional human error factor during the shot.

Rick
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Old 12-05-2018, 10:07 PM   #26
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So it's your postulation that I could shoot vanes and the paradox would keep the vane from hitting the shelf just like it does for the cock feather in?
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Old 12-05-2018, 10:18 PM   #27
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Quote:
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So it's your postulation that I could shoot vanes and the paradox would keep the vane from hitting the shelf just like it does for the cock feather in?
Yes.

I shot vanes off my Blackwidow PMA almost exclusively. The shelves on the BW's are almost perfect for it.

Even the bows not having an ideal shelf for it, can be easily modified (at the shelf) to allow for good vane tuning & flight.

Cock feather in works quite well with any fletching, but is almost a must for vanes.

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Old 12-05-2018, 10:22 PM   #28
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Okay. I'm going to try this. Actually though I'm not ready to modify my shelf so hopefully it will work without that. I already shoot cock feather in.

Gary
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Old 12-05-2018, 11:02 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
Okay. I'm going to try this. Actually though I'm not ready to modify my shelf so hopefully it will work without that. I already shoot cock feather in.

Gary
Which bow?

When I say modify the shelf, I don't mean doing anything permanent.

I can help you figure out what to do with the shelf, that won't alter it in any way. It'll just get the arrow setting a little different to help get the clearance you need.

All I did on my BW was to put a 1/4" bump under the shelf covering, and it was all I needed.

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Old 12-05-2018, 11:16 PM   #30
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I have two. The Tall Tines and the new Primaltech. I'll try it after hunting season.

Gary
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:35 AM   #31
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I'm not sure about the amount of arrow noise being the problem as opposed to the kind of noise the arrow makes. I have shot string trackers for close to 40 years. The noise I hear as the string comes out of the center of the spool seems to be much louder than the noise an arrow makes with out it. Even so, I hardly ever have a deer move before the arrow gets there. I've even missed high and the string was laying on the deer's back and they didn't move. I think the string noise covers the arrow noise and is a more natural sound and doesn't alarm them.

I do think compounds make a more unnatural noise and the deer move more than they do with stick bows. At least all the videos posted on here seem to show that.
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Old 12-06-2018, 09:19 AM   #32
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The bow from Randy makes a low, dull thump so I doubt it will be an issue. However being able to shoot vanes provides other benefits as well.

Gary
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Old 12-06-2018, 10:52 AM   #33
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So, what you are saying is that we need a silent and invisible arrow, right?

Something to think about; I was shooting with a friend several years ago and I was shooting a Cedar shaft with 4 x 4" parabolics on 90 Degrees. My buddy was behind a tree, just to the right of the target to see when he could hear the arrow. With the 4 x 4" Parabolics, he said it was almost silent. We then tried other scenarios, 3 x 5" Shields, 3 x 5 1/5" shields, 3 x 5" Parabolics but by far the 4 x 4" was the most quiet. This begs the question...Why am I looking at my arrow bucket with not one arrow fitted as described?

Time to start scraping off some fletchings. Good hunting.

Doug Key
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:13 AM   #34
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Some deer have Matrix moves and some do not.
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:58 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splitfinger View Post
So, what you are saying is that we need a silent and invisible arrow, right?

Doug Key
No, not exactly.

I'm more in the "I believe in make everything, including the arrow in flight as quite as you can get it" camp, and that is what I am sharing.

Visibility (deer seeing the arrow) is of less concern to me, but it can't hurt to cut down on that visibility as much as you can.

Rick
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:08 PM   #36
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I don't recommend doing this....disclaimer
but stand down range of a bow and have someone shoot an arrow past you. It is surprisingly loud. Different broad heads make different noises.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:37 PM   #37
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Quote:
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I don't recommend doing this....disclaimer
but stand down range of a bow and have someone shoot an arrow past you. It is surprisingly loud. Different broad heads make different noises.
When I started playing with adjusting arrow noise to get the flight quieter, one of the things/adjustements it "eventually" lead me to was to stop using vented blade broadheads. I shoot strictly non vented/solid blade heads now, and they definitely are quieter in flight by a lot.

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Old 12-06-2018, 01:19 PM   #38
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And yet some of the most expensive and vaunted heads in the world are vented heads.

Gary
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:26 PM   #39
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Quote:
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I don't recommend doing this....disclaimer
but stand down range of a bow and have someone shoot an arrow past you. It is surprisingly loud. Different broad heads make different noises.
As do different vanes.

I don't know what to do now, so confused.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:34 PM   #40
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Iíd be curious to see how much a deer would duck if youíd shot an arrow from your stand but in the opposite direction.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:47 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the marshall View Post
I don't recommend doing this....disclaimer
but stand down range of a bow and have someone shoot an arrow past you. It is surprisingly loud. Different broad heads make different noises.
You could gather this info safely by setting up a video- or phone-cam to shoot past near a target at 15 yards, or so.


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Old 12-07-2018, 05:15 PM   #42
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When I hunted from trees I would never shoot if I could see any part of the deer’s eye. When I started hunting from pop up and box blinds I figured that they could not see me draw so it did not matter.

I was wrong. They then could hear and see the arrow. I went back to not shooting deer looking in my direction.
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Old 12-08-2018, 01:31 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M.E.B. View Post
When I hunted from trees I would never shoot if I could see any part of the deerís eye. When I started hunting from pop up and box blinds I figured that they could not see me draw so it did not matter.

I was wrong. They then could hear and see the arrow. I went back to not shooting deer looking in my direction.
This reminds me of the signs on the back of big trucks stating: if you can't see my mirrors, I can't see you. Nice shooting guideline regarding deer eyes.

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Old 12-08-2018, 04:06 PM   #44
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Takin’ notes over here Boss.
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Old 12-09-2018, 04:22 PM   #45
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Not sure if this will add much to the discussion, but I found it very informational in relation to deer drop, and ducking.

https://www.growingdeer.tv/video/UmROuIHz
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Old Yesterday, 02:20 PM   #46
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I'm gonna start trying to shoot under them! Cause aiming at the armpit didn't work!! Skipped my fletchings off his back at 14yds!!🙄
Bow is loud as heck in a Krivoman! I brought a tripod but winds wrong this whole trip to set it where I want too!


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Old Yesterday, 02:51 PM   #47
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Location: Location, Location. Pick a spot.
Hunt In: a Tripod usually or Ground Blind.
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Generally, I aim/look at the belly line as I release. This allows the deer to "duck" into my arrow. I shot 630 tapered Cedar, or 750 grain tapered Ash arrows. This year will try tapered Maple @825 grains, this makes for a very quiet arrow.

Last edited by Wudstix; Yesterday at 02:53 PM.
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