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Old 01-12-2021, 11:01 AM   #51
jshouse
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with cemetum annuli testing to cross reference. Which still isn't 100%, but it seems to be more accurate than just guessing based on tooth wear.

This deer had a jaw that showed wear around 5 and the CA test said 7.
he looks old..great deer
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Old 01-12-2021, 11:09 AM   #52
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Iím not great at aging teeth but want to see what the answers are
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Old 01-12-2021, 12:00 PM   #53
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So a lot of y'all know me, and many newcomers probably do not. I've "been around the block" when it comes to this deer stuff. That's not to sound cocky, just confident. And on these deer I am VERY confident on their ages. By the "book" I would age these jaws at 6, 4, 8+. And I think that "book" needs to be thrown in the trash. Here we go:

Deer #1:

Name:  Jaw 1.jpg
Views: 492
Size:  95.7 KB

We named this deer "Tank" back in 2015, or maybe even 2014. We figured him at least a 5 year old back then. Giant body, giant neck, during the rut his hocks would run down his legs, the whole bit. There is no way he was any younger than 5. Let's be conservative and say that was 2015. That would make him at least 10 this year. This year he had one of the heaviest bodies we have killed, and had the biggest neck of any deer I have ever seen in our area. And he had his best horn year ever. He also ate a LOT of protein every year since we started watching him.

Deer #2:

Name:  Jaw 2.jpg
Views: 495
Size:  103.3 KB

We named this deer "Splits" back in 2015. Extremely easy deer to keep track of. Like Deer #1, there simply is NO WAY he was any younger than 5 back then, and I'm leaning toward 6. Giant neck, running hocks, ect., ect. But for arguments sake let's go the conservative route and call him 5 back then. That makes him at least 10 this year. Horn wise be blew up this year and was 20" bigger than he had ever been. And in all those years we can't recall even getting one pic of him eating protein. Ever.

Deer #3:

Name:  Jaw 3.JPG
Views: 498
Size:  138.2 KB

This was on a friend's place, but I found it interesting. This deer was marked as a fawn...17 years ago.



I have heard so much over the years about tooth wear aging. I know there are lots of places that are preaching it as gospel. And guys get kicked off for shooting something that has young looking teeth. That's a shame. I used to buy into it as well, 20 years ago. Now teeth are simply fun to look at but we realize there is no significance with them. There is no substitute for history. I've heard the arguments for diet affecting wear, and maybe it does. But it does not correlate with these examples. Actually these show just the opposite, the protein hog shows a lot more wear than the deer that never ate protein. Both lived in the same area of the ranch their entire lives. Both were even killed at the same corn feeder. I have also given up on the idea that area makes a difference. I know trusted guys in the hill country, west Texas, east Texas, and down South that all say the same things. When you notice a buck at 3, watch him for 5 or 6 years, kill him, and the teeth show 4...it makes you wonder. When it happens time and time again, on multiple ranches, multiple areas of the state, with every kind of management practices you can imagine, it brings you to my conclusion that teeth don't mean a hill of beans.

Just a fun little exercise that hopefully will help some to see that tooth wear aging is an absolute waste of time. There is no substitute for history.
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Old 01-12-2021, 12:11 PM   #54
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Awesome info. Thank you for taking the time to post it all.


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Old 01-12-2021, 01:07 PM   #55
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I wonder how old this guy was based on your 2 10yr old and 17 yr old teeth

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Old 01-12-2021, 01:29 PM   #56
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Chance my east tx experience is exactly like yours. Always older than the tooth wear charts say. Always
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Old 01-12-2021, 01:37 PM   #57
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can we see cam pics of the bucks?
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Old 01-12-2021, 01:38 PM   #58
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Interesting, thanks for posting.
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Old 01-12-2021, 02:07 PM   #59
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Those are some OLD deer, so at 5 & 6 years old they didn't have there best set of horns? And they didn't go down hill they got better?????
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Old 01-12-2021, 02:09 PM   #60
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Those are some OLD deer, so at 5 & 6 years old they didn't have there best set of horns? And they didn't go down hill they got better?????
Ha!!
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Old 01-12-2021, 02:14 PM   #61
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can we see cam pics of the bucks?
We have a VERY strict policy of NOT posting pics on the interweb. Jaw bones is all I'll post. I guess I could crop off the horns, but I'll have to see if I have that kind of time.

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Those are some OLD deer, so at 5 & 6 years old they didn't have there best set of horns? And they didn't go down hill they got better?????
In our area, they rarely have their best set of horns at 5 or 6. They are just getting started at those ages. The magic year seems to be 8. These were both surprising at 10. Or at 11, whatever they were.
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Old 01-12-2021, 02:21 PM   #62
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Good thread Chance. I think it's been 10+ years since we have put any stock into tooth aging on our place too. And even before that, it never made much sense to me when some dude would stick his hand in a deer's mouth, or look at a jawbone, and go "uhhhh...he's 5."
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Old 01-12-2021, 02:25 PM   #63
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Chance my east tx experience is exactly like yours. Always older than the tooth wear charts say. Always
We killed another one this year that we did not have history with. Figured him at a 6 year old based off body characteristics. For horns he wasn't "much punkin" so we shot him. His teeth showed older than both of these. Who the heck knows how old he actually was.



All we can do as hunters/managers is make educated guesses. NOTHING replaces history with a deer, except maybe ear tags. Sending teeth off for cementum annuli testing is simply no more accurate than our guesses. At least in my experience. My conclusion (take that and a nickel, and you will have $.05) is that aging by teeth is worthless. And it doesn't matter where. I'm always up for learning anything I can about deer. If y'all have comments about anything I have said or posted, throw it out there. Let's discuss. That's what this thread is all about.
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Old 01-12-2021, 02:34 PM   #64
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We have a VERY strict policy of NOT posting pics on the interweb. Jaw bones is all I'll post. I guess I could crop off the horns, but I'll have to see if I have that kind of time.



In our area, they rarely have their best set of horns at 5 or 6. They are just getting started at those ages. The magic year seems to be 8. These were both surprising at 10. Or at 11, whatever they were.
gotcha
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Old 01-12-2021, 02:52 PM   #65
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We killed another one this year that we did not have history with. Figured him at a 6 year old based off body characteristics. For horns he wasn't "much punkin" so we shot him. His teeth showed older than both of these. Who the heck knows how old he actually was.



All we can do as hunters/managers is make educated guesses. NOTHING replaces history with a deer, except maybe ear tags. Sending teeth off for cementum annuli testing is simply no more accurate than our guesses. At least in my experience. My conclusion (take that and a nickel, and you will have $.05) is that aging by teeth is worthless. And it doesn't matter where. I'm always up for learning anything I can about deer. If y'all have comments about anything I have said or posted, throw it out there. Let's discuss. That's what this thread is all about.
based on info from a buddy of mine with deer pens, CA isn't 100%, but usually not off by more than a 1 in either direction, based on known age from deer in the pens, where they literally know the day it was born.

the outlier to this, is that they also don't have 8 year old deer in the pens.

maybe that's why some of these deer lived until they were 9-10, because they had some lifestyle that dictated minimal annual wear of their teeth... who knows.
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Old 01-12-2021, 03:33 PM   #66
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Thanks for sharing. I've always followed the "book" and really didn't know any better. Picked up a new place this year, took my first 150" plus thinking he was minimum 7.5 and his teeth looked exactly like your deer #2. Kinda took the wind out of my sails and really made me question jaw aging.

Interesting note, my dad took a deer off same place who's teeth looked like your #1 deer (I had him minimum 7.5 as well). His deer hit corn/protein daily for the entire year. The deer I took we had a few random pics but never one of him at any type of feeder. Also, there was 1 pound separating them on the hoof, 191 and 192.

Last edited by PassnItOn; 01-12-2021 at 03:35 PM. Reason: additional info
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Old 01-12-2021, 06:09 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance Love View Post



All we can do as hunters/managers is make educated guesses. NOTHING replaces history with a deer, except maybe ear tags. Sending teeth off for cementum annuli testing is simply no more accurate than our guesses. At least in my experience. My conclusion (take that and a nickel, and you will have $.05) is that aging by teeth is worthless. And it doesn't matter where. I'm always up for learning anything I can about deer. If y'all have comments about anything I have said or posted, throw it out there. Let's discuss. That's what this thread is all about.
Agreed!
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Old 01-12-2021, 07:33 PM   #68
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You just blew Top of Texas mind. Lol
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Old 01-12-2021, 07:38 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by PassnItOn View Post
Thanks for sharing. I've always followed the "book" and really didn't know any better. Picked up a new place this year, took my first 150" plus thinking he was minimum 7.5 and his teeth looked exactly like your deer #2. Kinda took the wind out of my sails and really made me question jaw aging.

Interesting note, my dad took a deer off same place who's teeth looked like your #1 deer (I had him minimum 7.5 as well). His deer hit corn/protein daily for the entire year. The deer I took we had a few random pics but never one of him at any type of feeder. Also, there was 1 pound separating them on the hoof, 191 and 192.
Same happened to me this year, shot a buck I was confident was 7.5, teeth showed 5 or so.
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Old 01-12-2021, 08:12 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Chance Love View Post
All we can do as hunters/managers is make educated guesses. NOTHING replaces history with a deer, except maybe ear tags. Sending teeth off for cementum annuli testing is simply no more accurate than our guesses. At least in my experience. My conclusion (take that and a nickel, and you will have $.05) is that aging by teeth is worthless. And it doesn't matter where. I'm always up for learning anything I can about deer. If y'all have comments about anything I have said or posted, throw it out there. Let's discuss. That's what this thread is all about.

Really good post/discussion and thanks for sharing.

As you and others I think the old tooth wear is pretty useless. We shoot a lot of deer in south Texas and there doesn't seem to be any consistency on them. I would take my chances with judging them on the hoof versus tooth wear if I had to. Even that is just an educated guess without history.

A few seasons ago I started sending teeth to Deer Age for cementum testing. I know there is an OLDER study showing that isn't accurate and the stigma, that goes with that method as well. I just like to find out for myself.

The majority of the deer we had a pretty decent idea of age...Several years of trail cam pics and seeing them from year to year. To date they have hit an age we all landed on or were off by a year. I have also sent some that I had no history on, but just had a guess, really just for grins. So far all but one of those hit about what almost exactly what we expected. It was a very old showing deer on the hoof and jaw that we had no history on that I know of. Deer Age landed on 8.5, so still old, but I was thinking 10 years or more. All that said who really knows as maybe he was just sick or unhealthy for whatever reason.

I have no idea if they have improved their methods from years past or not. It very well may not be accurate, since our deer are not tagged. That said I just wanted to share a positive experience with cementum method.
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Old 01-12-2021, 08:15 PM   #71
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Sorry Chance Love and GarGuy. Just now seeing.

Based on tooth wear method
#1 - 5 or 6 yrs. Judgement call on tooth #4 being fully dished and tooth #6 dentin width.
#2 - 3 or 4 yrs. Judgement call on dentine of tooth #5
#3 - really old, officially 8 yrs

We already know that tooth wear has limitations and inaccuracies, and it's important to keep those in mind when making management decisions. I will say, that only on exceptionally rare occasions have I witnessed a high degree of discrepancy. That is, when I walk up to age a dead buck and note its body conformation, I'm rarely surprised by what I see in tooth wear. Rarely, but it does happen. However, I have never witnessed such a severe degree as you mentioned (10 yr old deer with 3 yr old teeth).

As I've mentioned in other threads, one of the driving issues is people making age declarations without having a clear understanding of the methodology. For example, at time of this writing, 26 people have provided ages to your quiz. Of those, 11 were correct (42%) and 15 were incorrect (58%), based on the method.

Now, if it's just "worthless," "useless," "guesses," then we should expect any data set, that is based on tooth wear, to be totally random. But, that's not what we see. Instead we see results like the attached chart of 116 harvested bucks (actual compiled data). Ages all based on tooth wear by individuals who understand the method. These hunters use body confirmation and history to make harvest decisions. If it's worthless, why do we see peaks at 5, 6, and 7 yrs old?

Still not convinced? Look at the charts for beam, spread, and base circumference. I'm not certain on the sample size, but possibly near 1,000 bucks over about a 20 year period. Region doesn't matter. All those measurements are categorized into ages based solely on tooth wear. Explain why we see peaks at 5, 6, and 7 yrs old if tooth wear is meaningless.

Hmm....

The method was developed based on the fact that tooth #4 erupts as a fawn and is the oldest molar in the deer's jaw, tooth #5 erupts at about 1 yr old, and tooth #6 at about 2 years old. Universal criteria were developed (i.e. the relationship between dentine and enamel width) to remove as much subjectivity as possible so that everyone should get the same answer, thus creating an objective method. A method that can be objectively tested. That is, I could train 10 individuals and they should age 100 jaws nearly the same.

What has yet to be scientifically established is the methodology of following a buck over consecutive years based on antler confirmation. I've done it a lot (or so I think), yet that remains highly subjective and not testable. There is no universal criteria; rather, I have to convince you or you just have to take my word for it. How many heated discussions have you witnessed of some guys huddled over a computer screen looking at trailcam photos? The individual who claims correctness has no objective criteria, but is usually just the most domineering personality of the group.
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Old 01-12-2021, 08:43 PM   #72
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T.o.T---Unless I missed something in your post, it seems like all of your examples are based off what the teeth show per the "book". That is the problem. I know what the book says a particular jaw shows, it just rarely correlates with the actual age in reality. I don't have fancy charts, just a lot of years of seeing it over and over again.

With the first jaw I posted, someone could have looked at that buck in the field and called him an 8 year old, and then THOUGHT they misjudged him by two years based on teeth. With our history of the buck, we KNOW the teeth were off by at least 4 years.

Same for the second jaw. Someone with no history probably would have aged him at 5 this year, then been just a little upset that his teeth show 4. But in reality the teeth were off by 6 years, per the book. They would have never known he was 10+ because he didn't have the typical body characteristics and the teeth didn't show it.

Those are perfect examples of why I think your data is flawed. Your data is based off "books", not so much off real world situations. That's not any kind of personal knock on you, it's just what I think after being involved in the industry for a pretty long time.
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Old 01-12-2021, 09:08 PM   #73
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If Iím reading his post right, he is suggesting that hunterís abilities to keep track of particular deer over the years, and judge their age via body traits, are what is wrong. And the teeth are what is right, more often than not.


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Old 01-12-2021, 09:11 PM   #74
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7, 5 and 10+

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Old 01-12-2021, 09:41 PM   #75
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Want to have a fun time? Next time you are at your dentist.... have a discussion how we age deer by tooth ware, he will laugh in your face. Same as people, dogs, deer you name it... everything is different. Iíve never been huge on tooth ware but I know we have to go by something. Sandy soils, hill country, Midwest diets, so many factors.
Like others have said, the most accurate way is watching a young buck at 2/3 for years and getting a solid guesstimate of the age class he might be.
I have killed numerous bucks I watched for multiple years that I know for a fact were 6 plus to have their teeth show 4.5

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Old 01-13-2021, 12:54 AM   #76
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Threads like this make me realize why I don't even look at their teeth anymore...
It's a shame so many "lease bosses" look at tooth aging as a strict management tool...
It is basically useless info to look at teeth.. Stirs up a lot of unnecessary trouble on some ranches..
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Old 01-13-2021, 09:17 AM   #77
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A big problem has become hunters and managers applying the technique beyond its limitations (i.e. hunters being kicked off leases, or that deer is X years old). Tooth wear can be a key element in making management decisions when applied appropriately, and that's what those charts demonstrate.

Maybe another leading cause of confusion is people getting hung up on the "years". Consider this...

Let's say we flush the years down the toilet. Instead let's call them categories, say from 1 to 8. For example a category 4 jaw would show dentine as wide or wider than enamel on tooth #4 and #5, and a category 6 jaw would show tooth #4 completely dished. Don't worry about the years. We know for a fact that antler size increases with tooth wear to a peak, then declines with extreme tooth wear. Look back at the charts regarding beam, spread, and base circumference as they clearly demonstrate this to be true. Now look back at chart of "116 harvested bucks". Those hunters are selecting to harvest deer primarily based on body conformation (field judging) and some history. What we see is a correlation between body conformation and tooth wear categories. That is, as buck's bodies get bigger and more filled-out their teeth are wearing at a similar rate. Forget about the years.

The facts are:
1) Body mass conformation increases with time, to a peak.
2) Antler size increases with time, to a peak.
3) Tooth wear increases with time.
4) Thus, antler size and body conformation are correlated with tooth wear.
Forget about the years.

So, from a management standpoint we see that bucks peak in antler size when tooth wear reaches categories of 6 and 7. The previous charts support this. And we see from the chart of "116 harvested bucks" that our hunters are doing a pretty good job of killing bucks around the peak of the bucks' lives. Forget about the years.

QUESTION FOR ALL READERS:
So then, let's say a group of 5 hunters have killed 5 bucks per year for the last 5 years (25 bucks total). They complain that the ranch cannot produce bucks over 140 B&C. Based on tooth wear, the bucks all fall into categories 3 and 4. What's the management implication?
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Old 01-13-2021, 09:32 AM   #78
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5-3-8 plus
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Old 01-13-2021, 09:46 AM   #79
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Clearly the deer need more age and maybe other things. The management plan for me would be to collect pics from the members over last 5years and develop as much history as possible. Then identify a hit list group of bucks for the next season. I would have a sit down with members and help them to understand what a fully mature deer looked like alive.

There would have to be a solid consensus among members that n.v maximum antler development was their intent. We can look at teeth after they are dead but the managenent decisions MUST be made on live walking deer. Unsure members would ge ccx encouraged to get a deer green lighted from pics before hunting him.

On your number class teeth... I agree they have best antlers at your 6 or 7 number but I gave personally proven many of my deer dont reach that wear until 10 plus. Honestly quite a few have had best antlers at 10. It would be hard to risk letting all of them go to that age due to natural mortality but if my goal was to grow a boomer every year, that's exactly what it would take.
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Old 01-13-2021, 10:32 AM   #80
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Deer 3 is ancient based off those teeth!
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Old 01-13-2021, 10:55 AM   #81
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Quote:
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Clearly the deer need more age and maybe other things. The management plan for me would be to collect pics from the members over last 5years and develop as much history as possible. Then identify a hit list group of bucks for the next season. I would have a sit down with members and help them to understand what a fully mature deer looked like alive.
I think that would be an excellent approach! And that need was identified through tooth wear. As far as "maybe other things", I excluded things like habitat quality, deer density, etc in an attempt to maintain focus, for simplicity sake.
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Old 01-13-2021, 11:28 AM   #82
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A big problem has become hunters and managers applying the technique beyond its limitations (i.e. hunters being kicked off leases, or that deer is X years old). Tooth wear can be a key element in making management decisions when applied appropriately, and that's what those charts demonstrate.
Again, those charts are assuming that what the teeth show is accurate and in direct correlation to a specific age.

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Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
Maybe another leading cause of confusion is people getting hung up on the "years". Consider this...

Let's say we flush the years down the toilet. Instead let's call them categories, say from 1 to 8. For example a category 4 jaw would show dentine as wide or wider than enamel on tooth #4 and #5, and a category 6 jaw would show tooth #4 completely dished. Don't worry about the years. We know for a fact that antler size increases with tooth wear to a peak, then declines with extreme tooth wear. Look back at the charts regarding beam, spread, and base circumference as they clearly demonstrate this to be true. Now look back at chart of "116 harvested bucks". Those hunters are selecting to harvest deer primarily based on body conformation (field judging) and some history. What we see is a correlation between body conformation and tooth wear categories. That is, as buck's bodies get bigger and more filled-out their teeth are wearing at a similar rate. Forget about the years.
But their teeth do not wear at a similar rate. That is the problem. Tooth wear is all over the place. Every deer is different. Some will wear just like the book says, most will not.

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Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
The facts are:
1) Body mass conformation increases with time, to a peak.
2) Antler size increases with time, to a peak.
3) Tooth wear increases with time.
4) Thus, antler size and body conformation are correlated with tooth wear.
Forget about the years.
1) I'll agree with this
2) I'll agree with this
3) Of course it does, but not at the same rate from deer to deer...the root of the problem with aging by teeth
4) Cannot agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
So, from a management standpoint we see that bucks peak in antler size when tooth wear reaches categories of 6 and 7. The previous charts support this. And we see from the chart of "116 harvested bucks" that our hunters are doing a pretty good job of killing bucks around the peak of the bucks' lives. Forget about the years.
You might as well forget about the years, if going by tooth wear.

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Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
QUESTION FOR ALL READERS:
So then, let's say a group of 5 hunters have killed 5 bucks per year for the last 5 years (25 bucks total). They complain that the ranch cannot produce bucks over 140 B&C. Based on tooth wear, the bucks all fall into categories 3 and 4. What's the management implication?
I would argue they got REALLY lucky for all bucks to fall into the same categories by teeth. Like the same odds as hitting the lottery lucky.

We kill our "trophies" at 8+, and on the RARE occasion at 7. We have been on this place a long time, and have great history with a vast majority of the bucks. The tooth wear is all over the board, on known aged bucks. We could kill an 8 year old buck tomorrow, and his teeth might actually show 8. Who knows. But they could also show 4. Neither would surprise me. And with the history we have, neither jaw would change my mind on how old the buck was.
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Old 01-13-2021, 11:34 AM   #83
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On your number class teeth... I agree they have best antlers at your 6 or 7 number but I gave personally proven many of my deer dont reach that wear until 10 plus. Honestly quite a few have had best antlers at 10. It would be hard to risk letting all of them go to that age due to natural mortality but if my goal was to grow a boomer every year, that's exactly what it would take.
That gives rise to a question, which also occurred to me when reading about Chance Love's 10-11 yr olds with 3 and 5 yr old teeth. Many hunters don't have the luxury of trailcams and/or following deer for consecutive years, or simply choose not to, myself included. Rather, many rely on field judging based on body conformation. Generally speaking, a trained group of hunters can get pretty good at only killing older age bucks using only that technique. No history. Since the data reveals that body confirmation and tooth wear are correlated, and antlers peak at tooth wear categories of 6-7, then the question is - How did the deer that you and Chance Love refer to reach the actual age of 10 years while appearing fully mature in physiology for at least 4 years and with history? Clarify for me, because I see only a few possibilities
1) Body development, in addition to tooth wear, was delayed in those particular deer.
2) Body development was not delayed, but the deer avoided harvest until later years.
3) Body development was not delayed, but the deer was intentionally not harvested for some reason.
Granted, the presumption I'm making is that if you determined the deer to be fully mature, based on conformation and history, that you would have harvested the deer. If not, then why not?

I'll also state again, though more pithy, that tooth wear is scientifically based and primarily objective. Following bucks over consecutive years remains highly subjective.
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Old 01-13-2021, 11:45 AM   #84
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This thread is depressing.
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Old 01-13-2021, 01:23 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post



QUESTION FOR ALL READERS:
So then, let's say a group of 5 hunters have killed 5 bucks per year for the last 5 years (25 bucks total). They complain that the ranch cannot produce bucks over 140 B&C. Based on tooth wear, the bucks all fall into categories 3 and 4. What's the management implication?
if bigger is what they want, i'd say all 5 guys aren't going to get to kill a buck for a few years. 1 or 2 total per year for a couple years would probably help a lot.
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Old 01-13-2021, 03:50 PM   #86
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owning and leasing good country, I concur that the teeth dont match. Maybe they do from 1-4 years old, but after that it is a crap shoot. we killed 2 known bucks this year that were 8 years old. And 1 buck that was 7. None of the teeth were aged over 5 using the normal tooth charts. And before asking how we know they are the same deer, we watch them from year to year. same locations, same horns, so body features, same ripped ear or birth mark. One has had a broken leg since we got on the place 5 years ago and it was 4 when we got on. Both 8 year olds where the best they have ever been this year. Both by over 15 or so inches.
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Old 01-13-2021, 05:27 PM   #87
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Man this really is an interesting thread!
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Old 01-13-2021, 08:10 PM   #88
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Don’t even look at teeth it’s a complete waste of time. As stated numerous times above, known age of deer and teeth do not show accurate age.
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Old 01-13-2021, 08:43 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by top of texas View Post
that gives rise to a question, which also occurred to me when reading about chance love's 10-11 yr olds with 3 and 5 yr old teeth. Many hunters don't have the luxury of trailcams and/or following deer for consecutive years, or simply choose not to, myself included. Rather, many rely on field judging based on body conformation. Generally speaking, a trained group of hunters can get pretty good at only killing older age bucks using only that technique. No history. Since the data reveals that body confirmation and tooth wear are correlated, and antlers peak at tooth wear categories of 6-7, then the question is - how did the deer that you and chance love refer to reach the actual age of 10 years while appearing fully mature in physiology for at least 4 years and with history? Clarify for me, because i see only a few possibilities
1) body development, in addition to tooth wear, was delayed in those particular deer.
2) body development was not delayed, but the deer avoided harvest until later years.
3) body development was not delayed, but the deer was intentionally not harvested for some reason.
Granted, the presumption i'm making is that if you determined the deer to be fully mature, based on conformation and history, that you would have harvested the deer. If not, then why not?
That's an easy answer. We don't shoot deer just because they are mature. They also need to be big enough (antler wise), and really need to "trip our trigger". Otherwise they will get more time. I feel it is silly to shoot a deer just because he is "old enough". Some will get by us on their own of course also. If we let one go, and let him go, and let him go, and he just falls off, we are ok with it. However, that rarely happens.

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Originally Posted by top of texas View Post
i'll also state again, though more pithy, that tooth wear is scientifically based and primarily objective. Following bucks over consecutive years remains highly subjective.
Are you actually suggesting that it is not possible to follow a buck for consecutive years based on antler characteristics? Or even other characteristics?

I will agree that tooth wear is "scientifically based and primarily objective"...but I won't agree that it is true and accurate. The mere fact that teeth can and do wear at different rates for different individuals (deer, people, ect.) negates the whole tooth-wear argument.
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Old 01-13-2021, 09:59 PM   #90
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OK, umm...y'all raise your heads out of the bunker for just a second, look around, and think about it. Stop focusing on the years. OK? Think about how the data is all tied together. Body conformation, hunter selection based on body conformation, antler size, and tooth wear. They're all tied together and tooth wear is what gives them all meaning. So much meaning that the data is predictable. We should all be able to agree that a buck will peak in antler growth when its tooth wear meets categories 6 and 7. Or that a buck will not have peaked if tooth wear showed categories 3 and 4. Thus we can use the data to predict outcomes. Stop focusing on the years.

There have been several statements in this thread claiming that tooth wear occurs at different rates for different deer. In general, and on average, that is inaccurate when looking at a complete data set. If tooth wear occurred at different rates, and that was the norm, then those charts wouldn't have a gradual increase that peaks at categories 6 and 7. Instead, they would look like either a straight line or have peaks and valleys at categories 3-4 or 7-8 or they would be "all over the place". That's the type of chart we see when analyzing random data sets where the variables have no correlation. That is, they would be unpredictable. Clearly, that's not true for tooth wear as it relates to body conformation and antler size because, as I've already pointed out, it's predictable.

As related to deer history. I have had an untold number of bucks over the years where I felt very confident I had followed their development with trail camera photos or sightings. As someone stated earlier - antler shape, unique marks, or whatever (sometimes very creative), are used as cues in an attempt to keep track of the same buck during its life. I get it. I've done it. However, if I took notice of a buck at middle age (a starting point based solely on body conformation), followed that buck all the way through and beyond maturity (based on history), and finally killed it at what I believed to be 10 years of age (based on history), but it's tooth wear showed category 4 or 5, then I would naturally assume that I must've got my bucks mixed up. Because that would be an extreme, off the page outlier. So much so, that I would have to come to the deductive reasoning conclusion that I just got some bucks mixed up. If it happened on a regular basis, it would seriously draw into question my subjective ability to properly identify the same buck in consecutive years. It would not draw into question my ability to apply the objective technique of tooth wear.
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Old 01-13-2021, 10:10 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
OK, umm...y'all raise your heads out of the bunker for just a second, look around, and think about it. Stop focusing on the years. OK? Think about how the data is all tied together. Body conformation, hunter selection based on body conformation, antler size, and tooth wear. They're all tied together and tooth wear is what gives them all meaning. So much meaning that the data is predictable. We should all be able to agree that a buck will peak in antler growth when its tooth wear meets categories 6 and 7. Or that a buck will not have peaked if tooth wear showed categories 3 and 4. Thus we can use the data to predict outcomes. Stop focusing on the years.

Stop focusing on the years? This whole thing is about years in relation to teeth! You keep rambling off into other irrelevant areas. Teeth are proven unreliable in determining age, over and over. They could be relevant in determining what years will be a bucks ďprimeĒ but thatís immaterial if you canít get him to a dentist once a year.


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Old 01-13-2021, 10:23 PM   #92
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Lol dale beat me to it
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Old 01-13-2021, 10:26 PM   #93
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Top of Texas just blew my mind. Lol
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Old 01-13-2021, 10:43 PM   #94
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ToT, I do not think this is a convo about peak years of antler growth as it relates to body makeup and tooth wear. Of course a deers teeth prolly tracks consistently with body makeup and antler growth. The correlation between those 3 seems...obvious. No one appears to be arguing with you about that. But all 3 of those things, combined, still doesn’t determine a deers age, right? A deer could exhibit those characteristics at any given age (as is evident by Chances pics).
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Old 01-13-2021, 10:51 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
We should all be able to agree that a buck will peak in antler growth when its tooth wear meets categories 6 and 7. Or that a buck will not have peaked if tooth wear showed categories 3 and 4.
*takes years out of it, and plays along with your categories idea*

But what we donít know is the number of years it takes for a buck to exhibit tooth wear that meets categories 6 and 7. The categories are correlated to prime antler growth years, maybe, but they arenít indicative of a specific age.
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Old 01-14-2021, 08:44 AM   #96
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TOT, everyone I know that has meticulously saved history on many bucks has learned that tooth wear is all over the place on older deer. Most are also learning deer can live much older than we were taught and that best antlers often come at 8, 9 ,or 10. Your charts dont represent that because you wont recognize that most of the deer you call 6 and 7 are actually considerably older.

I always read your opinions and appreciate the scientific approach. That said, you admit if you saw exactly what we are telling you with your own eyes, you would refuse to reconsider your stance and dismiss it. Thats not science. Thats being bull headed.

I respectfully request that you consider what people with actual first hand experience are telling you. Dozens of us have arrived at exactly the same conclusions independed of each other.

Please consider that the very premise your charts were built on is flawed. I dont want to be argumentative thus my lack of reply to your posts so far. I love good discussion though. We can all learn. The danger is getting to a point that we know everything and start dismissing the obvious.

Steve Barclay

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Old 01-14-2021, 09:09 AM   #97
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.
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Old 01-14-2021, 09:38 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarGuy View Post
TOT, everyone I know that has meticulously saved history on many bucks has learned that tooth wear is all over the place on older deer. Most are also learning deer can live much older than we were taught and that best antlers often come at 8, 9 ,or 10. Your charts dont represent that because you wont recognize that most of the deer you call 6 and 7 are actually considerably older.

I always read your opinions and appreciate the scientific approach. That said, you admit if you saw exactly what we are telling you with your own eyes, you would refuse to reconsider your stance and dismiss it. Thats not science. Thats being bull headed.

I respectfully request that you consider what people with actual first hand experience are telling you. Dozens of us have arrived at exactly the same conclusions independed of each other.

Please consider that the very premise your charts were built on is flawed. I dont want to be argumentative thus my lack of reply to your posts so far. I love good discussion though. We can all learn. The danger is getting to a point that we know everything and start dismissing the obvious.

Steve Barclay
I agree with this 100%, growing up I was always told deer horn growth generally peeks at age 5-6. But hunting on a ranch that lets trophyís get to 8 before they go on the hit list has really opened my eyes to the falsehoods of what I was taught. And the teeth absolutely are all over the map on known age of deer. The lease boss told me this before I even stepped foot on this lease I was still very skeptical as you are. Now seeing it with my own eyes and 15 years of history on this particular lease brings my conclusion to the same, teeth are just not accurate. Iím sorry but science is wrong at times.
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Old 01-14-2021, 09:39 AM   #99
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Sorry the last post was for top of Texas
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Old 01-14-2021, 09:57 AM   #100
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Is the consensus that tooth wear has nothing to do with a deerís peak antler size, or when they start going downhill?
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