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Old 09-15-2020, 09:36 PM   #1
AntlerCollector
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Default If you were going to start a hunting lease.....

Give me your opinions on management/cull buck rules.

Iím considering taking on another lease starting next year.

It would be Archery only.
Hunters would be required to feed protein.
This would be a lease that should grow 140Ē+ bucks.

I figured 1 trophy, 2 doe, and at least one management.

Question is what would you consider management?

This is a place near Eldorado. Lots of deer in the area.
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Old 09-15-2020, 09:44 PM   #2
matvxr
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I run two smaller leases. I Lease out to like minded friends and have zero rules. Pretty fun. I used to run a larger lease with rules, took the fun out of it.
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Old 09-15-2020, 09:48 PM   #3
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That would have to be determined by the bell curve of your herd, imo.
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Old 09-15-2020, 09:48 PM   #4
Hoss163
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Trophy at least 5.5 and over 130
Management At least 5.5 and under 130
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Old 09-15-2020, 09:50 PM   #5
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I would put Smart in the 140-150" deer every year blind...
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Old 09-15-2020, 09:58 PM   #6
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Trophy at least 5.5 and over 130
Management At least 5.5 and under 130


So you donít shoot any deer you consider inferior or undesirable until itís 5.5 years old?

What about a slick 6 at 4.5 or even 3.5?
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Old 09-15-2020, 10:05 PM   #7
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So you donít shoot any deer you consider inferior or undesirable until itís 5.5 years old?



What about a slick 6 at 4.5 or even 3.5?

At least 5.5 no matter what .


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Old 09-15-2020, 10:24 PM   #8
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So you donít shoot any deer you consider inferior or undesirable until itís 5.5 years old?

What about a slick 6 at 4.5 or even 3.5?
Unless you're high fence, culling is pissing in the wind. Let 'em all get a little age and shoot what you like. You'll be surprised what " inferior " deer can do with age and proper nutrition..
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Old 09-15-2020, 10:27 PM   #9
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Unless you're high fence, culling is pissing in the wind. Let 'em all get a little age and shoot what you like. You'll be surprised what " inferior " deer can do with age and proper nutrition..
This all day long. Just go with a flat age restrictions and donít top out at 5 or 6, shoot for 8-9.
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Old 09-15-2020, 10:28 PM   #10
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Unless you're high fence, culling is pissing in the wind. Let 'em all get a little age and shoot what you like. You'll be surprised what " inferior " deer can do with age and proper nutrition..


They can rack up a feed bill for sure. I usually have 20 deer at my feeder. I agree with you. Iím not really culling in an effort to drastically change the herd. I do think killing a below average buck is 100% effective in preventing him from breeding though
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Old 09-15-2020, 10:30 PM   #11
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This all day long. Just go with a flat age restrictions and donít top out at 5 or 6, shoot for 8-9.
Wow 8-9!

Problem I know I will have with that is all the leases around me consider a 4.5 to be a trophy. I was thinking of making my minimum 5.5 for trophies. Some of the ideas on culls are interesting so far.
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Old 09-15-2020, 10:35 PM   #12
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Unless you're high fence, culling is pissing in the wind. Let 'em all get a little age and shoot what you like. You'll be surprised what " inferior " deer can do with age and proper nutrition..
I am in with this. Especially if you have a lot of deer. I disagree with some of the deer we cull out because I think they aren't old enough.
I like the less rules the better too. Get quality people and they know what to do. Mistakes will be made but that's part of it too.
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Old 09-15-2020, 10:35 PM   #13
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They can rack up a feed bill for sure. I usually have 20 deer at my feeder. I agree with you. Iím not really culling in an effort to drastically change the herd. I do think killing a below average buck is 100% effective in preventing him from breeding though
Lots of proven research to rebuttal that, did you kill the sir and dam who made the inferior deer also? You'll never stop the lineage of inferiority unless you can control and contain the environment in which they reside... aka... HF, with years and years of culling.

Some studies have shown, even behind a fence it can take up to 10 years to alter a herds genetic makeup.

Just let them shoot what they want. Makes life easier

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Old 09-15-2020, 10:47 PM   #14
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We have tried to do it. We have talked about it. And in 16 years we haven't made or seen a lick of difference in our quality of bucks. The only time we saw major, major results were in 2010 and 11 during the drought. Mother nature cleaned house!
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Old 09-15-2020, 11:16 PM   #15
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Lots of proven research to rebuttal that, did you kill the sir and dam who made the inferior deer also? You'll never stop the lineage of inferiority unless you can control and contain the environment in which they reside... aka... HF, with years and years of culling.

Some studies have shown, even behind a fence it can take up to 10 years to alter a herds genetic makeup.

Just let them shoot what they want. Makes life easier

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I agree with you. Most leases still allow some sort of a cull or management buck instead of allowing two trophy bucks. Iím just trying to get a better handle on what parameters would be considered a management on a lease that is growing trophies
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Old 09-15-2020, 11:31 PM   #16
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I agree with you. Most leases still allow some sort of a cull or management buck instead of allowing two trophy bucks. Iím just trying to get a better handle on what parameters would be considered a management on a lease that is growing trophies
Take the MLD approach. Count your deer and figure out how many mouths need to be removed and how many of each sex. Then go from there based on whatever parameters you come up with
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Old 09-15-2020, 11:48 PM   #17
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I would not. After taking a lot of guys hunting for over 10 years. I would never get involved in that again. We did that back in the early 80s to the mid 90s. The people hunting today, are a whole different breed.
If someone asked me to run a hunting camp or be a guide on a hunting ranch I would laugh at them. We had too many problems, many years ago. Someone would have to pay me a lot of money to do that again today. Lease out property for hunting I would have the same view of the whole deal. Until you have been in that position, you really don't have any idea, the crazy crap, that you will wind up dealing with.

There better be a lot of profit and a lot of money involved, or I would not even consider it. I mean well into the six figures or I would walk away. I know there are guys who will say it's great. But I can tell you of many very crazy stories, that I don't ever want to deal with again. When I say I will never take anyone from Dallas hunting again, I do mean it. Never did we take someone hunting, that came in from Dallas, that did not result in a very memorable weekend and not in a good way. That was back in the early 80s to mid 90s. I would not even want to think of what crazy stuff, you would encounter today.

Until you have done it for a while and dealt with a lot of people from all walks of life, you won't fully understand. Once you get to that point, you will be leery of hunting with people you don't know very well. Every time some guy asks to go hunting with me, I decline very quickly, unless, I really think the guy knows what he is doing and that would come after talking to him a lot prior to him asking to go hunting with me. I don't want to baby sit an adult, nor do I want to treat an adult like they need to be baby sat. So when I have any questions about what they are going to be like out in the field, I just pass on the whole idea. I don't care to find out the hard way, that they need someone watching them all the time. It really messes up my hunting.

But the other side of the deal, is gaining experience with many different people and getting a better idea of who you should let on a lease and who to tell your booked. It will take a lot of dealings before you get to where you can do that accurately. I don't have the patience, I really never did. When they were in my control, where I told them what to do and what not to do, every step of the way. I usually never had much of a problem. But when I let them do things their way, that's when we started having problems. On a lease, they are going to do things their way. You will eventually find out later, they did things their way. Then you get to deal with their, wrong doings, after they are done. Some of those wrong doings will be easily fixed, and others will make you wish you never came up with the idea of leasing land to hunt.

Hopefully if you do this deal, you get some good advice from guys who have a lot of experience leasing land and they give you some good starting points, to base your rules off of. We never leased land to other people, we just took a lot of guys hunting over probably 12 years time. I really liked taking some of the guys hunting we took hunting. We really looked forward to some of the guys coming back. But then there were buys we did not know, that caused us all types of problems. We dealt with some crazy crap back then, I don't ever want to deal with again. Now days, I would have very little patience for the crap we dealt with back in those days.

You want to hear about crazy. We had a guy bring three of his sons out to hunt deer. Well the youngest brother was supposed to kill the biggest deer. We did not fully understand that. But we did our best to put the youngest son in a spot where he should have a shot at a very nice deer.

Well the oldest son, who was not supposed to get anything worth while, killed a huge buck. We put him in a blind that nobody had ever seen anything other than does and javelina out of, on occasions there was a couple of fork horns that would show up. But our luck, a monster buck showed up, I mean huge body, huge rack. So the oldest son shot and killed the buck. Well his younger brother killed a very nice buck, that same morning. Everybody was very excited, till we got to the blind the oldest brother was in. Then we found that dang mule with antlers laying in the sendero. That thing was huge. Everybody was very excited, except for the father of the three sons. He very quickly informed us, we had messed up badly, by allowing the older son to kill a bigger buck. We all though, ok sure, whatever. We already had the buck the youngest son had killed, loaded. Then we loaded the oldest son's buck. By the time we were heading back to camp, I knew things were going to go bad. The father, youngest brother and middle brother, were all talking amongst themselves and not talking to the oldest brother.

That evening, we took everybody to a stand, except for the father, youngest brother and middle brother. The oldest brother went back to the same stand. The two other brothers and the father stayed at camp. At least till we were gone. Then the three of them took off, went to the blind the oldest brother was in and shot that blind full of holes. The oldest brother, had to bail out of the blind, broke his arm bailing out. Then hid up in the mesquite brush for hours. Till we showed up. We heard all of the shooting, but had no idea what was going on. You would never expect family members to shoot at other family member, much less over that family member shooting a larger deer, than the preferred family member.

But they did, we had a deer blind full of bullet holes. The father, and two younger brothers, completely denied ever shooting at that blind, with that brother inside. But then at the same time, when we told them to leave, and the oldest brother to stay, they got very upset. They refused to leave without him. We made them leave without him. We took him to the hospital with a broken arm. To this day, we don't know how long he lived after he got home. But I can tell you, if I were him, I would never have showed up for Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas dinner, or any family event.

The idea of turning guys I don't know, loose unsupervised, on a piece of land and me being the person responsible for their actions, my thoughts are absolutely not.
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Old 09-16-2020, 12:30 AM   #18
TxDispatcher
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Originally Posted by RifleBowPistol View Post
I would not. After taking a lot of guys hunting for over 10 years. I would never get involved in that again. We did that back in the early 80s to the mid 90s. The people hunting today, are a whole different breed.
If someone asked me to run a hunting camp or be a guide on a hunting ranch I would laugh at them. We had too many problems, many years ago. Someone would have to pay me a lot of money to do that again today. Lease out property for hunting I would have the same view of the whole deal. Until you have been in that position, you really don't have any idea, the crazy crap, that you will wind up dealing with.

There better be a lot of profit and a lot of money involved, or I would not even consider it. I mean well into the six figures or I would walk away. I know there are guys who will say it's great. But I can tell you of many very crazy stories, that I don't ever want to deal with again. When I say I will never take anyone from Dallas hunting again, I do mean it. Never did we take someone hunting, that came in from Dallas, that did not result in a very memorable weekend and not in a good way. That was back in the early 80s to mid 90s. I would not even want to think of what crazy stuff, you would encounter today.

Until you have done it for a while and dealt with a lot of people from all walks of life, you won't fully understand. Once you get to that point, you will be leery of hunting with people you don't know very well. Every time some guy asks to go hunting with me, I decline very quickly, unless, I really think the guy knows what he is doing and that would come after talking to him a lot prior to him asking to go hunting with me. I don't want to baby sit an adult, nor do I want to treat an adult like they need to be baby sat. So when I have any questions about what they are going to be like out in the field, I just pass on the whole idea. I don't care to find out the hard way, that they need someone watching them all the time. It really messes up my hunting.

But the other side of the deal, is gaining experience with many different people and getting a better idea of who you should let on a lease and who to tell your booked. It will take a lot of dealings before you get to where you can do that accurately. I don't have the patience, I really never did. When they were in my control, where I told them what to do and what not to do, every step of the way. I usually never had much of a problem. But when I let them do things their way, that's when we started having problems. On a lease, they are going to do things their way. You will eventually find out later, they did things their way. Then you get to deal with their, wrong doings, after they are done. Some of those wrong doings will be easily fixed, and others will make you wish you never came up with the idea of leasing land to hunt.

Hopefully if you do this deal, you get some good advice from guys who have a lot of experience leasing land and they give you some good starting points, to base your rules off of. We never leased land to other people, we just took a lot of guys hunting over probably 12 years time. I really liked taking some of the guys hunting we took hunting. We really looked forward to some of the guys coming back. But then there were buys we did not know, that caused us all types of problems. We dealt with some crazy crap back then, I don't ever want to deal with again. Now days, I would have very little patience for the crap we dealt with back in those days.

You want to hear about crazy. We had a guy bring three of his sons out to hunt deer. Well the youngest brother was supposed to kill the biggest deer. We did not fully understand that. But we did our best to put the youngest son in a spot where he should have a shot at a very nice deer.

Well the oldest son, who was not supposed to get anything worth while, killed a huge buck. We put him in a blind that nobody had ever seen anything other than does and javelina out of, on occasions there was a couple of fork horns that would show up. But our luck, a monster buck showed up, I mean huge body, huge rack. So the oldest son shot and killed the buck. Well his younger brother killed a very nice buck, that same morning. Everybody was very excited, till we got to the blind the oldest brother was in. Then we found that dang mule with antlers laying in the sendero. That thing was huge. Everybody was very excited, except for the father of the three sons. He very quickly informed us, we had messed up badly, by allowing the older son to kill a bigger buck. We all though, ok sure, whatever. We already had the buck the youngest son had killed, loaded. Then we loaded the oldest son's buck. By the time we were heading back to camp, I knew things were going to go bad. The father, youngest brother and middle brother, were all talking amongst themselves and not talking to the oldest brother.

That evening, we took everybody to a stand, except for the father, youngest brother and middle brother. The oldest brother went back to the same stand. The two other brothers and the father stayed at camp. At least till we were gone. Then the three of them took off, went to the blind the oldest brother was in and shot that blind full of holes. The oldest brother, had to bail out of the blind, broke his arm bailing out. Then hid up in the mesquite brush for hours. Till we showed up. We heard all of the shooting, but had no idea what was going on. You would never expect family members to shoot at other family member, much less over that family member shooting a larger deer, than the preferred family member.

But they did, we had a deer blind full of bullet holes. The father, and two younger brothers, completely denied ever shooting at that blind, with that brother inside. But then at the same time, when we told them to leave, and the oldest brother to stay, they got very upset. They refused to leave without him. We made them leave without him. We took him to the hospital with a broken arm. To this day, we don't know how long he lived after he got home. But I can tell you, if I were him, I would never have showed up for Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas dinner, or any family event.

The idea of turning guys I don't know, loose unsupervised, on a piece of land and me being the person responsible for their actions, my thoughts are absolutely not.
AC already runs a couple leases. I donít think he was asking what you thought he was

As far as your post goes, I have to agree with you. If I had dealt with that, I would pass on ever doing it again
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Old 09-16-2020, 12:40 AM   #19
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I would use the Hunter Sight journal to create a hunt club for my group.

The lease rules would be on the main page of our club

The community forum for our club would be how we communicate with everyone at once.

We could share game photos to discuss culls etc or ages of bucks

Everyone could log in their own kill in to the club books without just me having to keep up with it. We could instantly see who has shot what and the date. The weather conditions are automatically attached to each kill by the Hunter Sight. I would utilized the trends feature that cost 25 bucks a year to see analytics on age of harvested animals and buck vs doe ratio killed to help the group.

I would have every hunter log in the nutrition logs when they filled their protein feeders etc. Each feeder would be named after the hunter. We would be able to see as a group the consumption rates of the feeders...Depending on the honesty of each guy. However we would have the tools to really track the best feeds or areas concentrated with more game by doing this

As a group we would upload pics into the Hunter Sights 'Hit List' feature that we agreed were culls or mature bucks free to be harvested with no complaint from anyone.

Lastly, nothing is perfect but this platform sure can help achieve a lot of things people always talk about and can be logged in from your phone, computer, or ipad making it convenient for every member to participate.
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Old 09-16-2020, 04:57 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mexico View Post
Unless you're high fence, culling is pissing in the wind. Let 'em all get a little age and shoot what you like. You'll be surprised what " inferior " deer can do with age and proper nutrition..


After many years of trying to learn how to properly cull, this is spot on. Let em all get to 4-5 then shoot what you want. Iíve got a slick 6 I shot in Junction thatís in the high 120ís. Chance Love thinks heís pushing 130. He was 6 or 7, canít really remember exact age.


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Old 09-16-2020, 05:24 AM   #21
TheHammer
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Like others have said, age is your biggest and best ingredient.

I would take every deer to 5.5 unless he was sure enough trash and agreed upon by the group. Then after a few years of that with a established 5.5 group, I would raise it to 6.5 minimum and leave it there.

I’ve also seen on here by a group that visual history is needed before a buck can be taken. You have to have video or trail camera approval from the other lease members that he’s mature and needs to be killed. Sounds a little more than most, but I like it.

Last edited by TheHammer; 09-16-2020 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 09-16-2020, 05:31 AM   #22
AntlerCollector
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RifleBowPistol, that’s a crazy story for sure. I don’t know what it has to do with what I was asking though

If you can find someone willing to pay 6 figures to manage a hunting lease please let me know. Lol.

I’ve been running leases for 30 years. It’s not new to me. I’m just looking for a better way to setup allotments in regards to what many places consider management/culls.

I appreciate all the advice so far.
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Old 09-16-2020, 05:35 AM   #23
Mayhem
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The term cull or management buck on a LF ranch is a term used to justify killing a second buck. There I said it. @mexico


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Old 09-16-2020, 05:37 AM   #24
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If you decide to do this somewhere East of 45 let me know AC


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Old 09-16-2020, 05:37 AM   #25
AntlerCollector
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The term cull or management buck on a LF ranch is a term used to justify killing a second buck. There I said it. @mexico


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I agree 100%. That’s exactly what it is.

However shooting two mature trophy bucks per member is not realistic for long term success. So in most lease set ups there is an allowance for the 2nd buck to be a “cull” of some sort.

Last edited by AntlerCollector; 09-16-2020 at 05:40 AM.
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Old 09-16-2020, 06:05 AM   #26
slayr
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Peoples feelings seem to get hurt more when someone else shoots the cull after they’ve shot their trophy. This is usually the time they’ll say they’d have gladly shot that deer as their trophy, etc.

I think best way to keep drama is have a management ‘hit list’. If somebody is against one of them being management, then they can take it down and it can be killed as a trophy.

.growing up we had all kinds of rules on our east Texas place. They seemed to work as we consistently killed some pretty solid deer, but it sure did take a lot of the fun out of it when it came to dining my kids hunting. ‘Sorry kiddo, I know that deer is huge and would be your first buck, but he is only 4.5....we can’t shoot him.”

I now run our place out in south west Texas....our number one rule is to just have fun. We ask the few folks on the place to just shoot what makes em happy. Have they killed some stuff they shouldn’t have, Yep. But they were happy and that made me happy. They’ll
Kill a bigger one next time. We still kill some pretty decent (140”) deer, but with basically zero headache.
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Old 09-16-2020, 06:06 AM   #27
Snowflake Killa
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Trophy at least 5.5 and over 130
Management At least 5.5 and under 130
This is our rules works just fine. The problem with making an exception for one deer then you open the box. Makes your life alot better

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Old 09-16-2020, 06:27 AM   #28
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NEW rules-MUST shoot a doe 1st, then 10 point or better Is a trophy buck, CULL is spikes and antlers with no brow tines growing,(age always was just a guess) youth hunts any animal they want.
Plus it’s easy to remember, and only on low fence

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Old 09-16-2020, 06:52 AM   #29
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NEW rules-MUST shoot a doe 1st, then 10 point or better Is a trophy buck, CULL is spikes and antlers with no brow tines growing,(age always was just a guess) youth hunts any animal they want.
Plus itís easy to remember, and only on low fence


So what happens to all the 8 pointers? They just die of old age?
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:02 AM   #30
whitetailfanatic
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Yep or youth possibly or grow up to be a 9 or 10’s,12 or 8 with kickers and splits who knows it’s low fence, I am not the creator , just a hunter wanting to spend time outdoors with family and friends doesn’t need to be a competition just trying to do our part no matter how minuscule it might be to
Each their own, nothing in stone unless land owner specified, that ol saying my way or highway

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Old 09-16-2020, 07:07 AM   #31
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I read an article on a guy that had shot a ton of P&Y bucks. The place he was on had a rule I had never heard of or considered before the article. It was pretty simply. If your first buck would net P&Y then you could shoot a second buck. Seems like an odd rule but if you think about it I bet it would work well. Mistakes are punished by only getting one buck. Quality decisions are rewards by getting a second one. The tape measure makes the decisions so it is pretty black and white. No grey areas to get yourself in trouble with.

-john
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:10 AM   #32
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I think location of the property and size would come into play as for as what rules you should have.
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:12 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by AntlerCollector View Post
So you donít shoot any deer you consider inferior or undesirable until itís 5.5 years old?

What about a slick 6 at 4.5 or even 3.5?
I asked this in the management section because we have a high deer density and need to get rid of some. General consensus was to not take anything based on antlers, only age and see how they turn out. Right now weíve been picking deer based on antlers and age so this year weíll switch to just taking out the old guys
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:14 AM   #34
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Really like the doe first ideas kind of earn the tag, saw this somewhere
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:17 AM   #35
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Good luck "culling" especially in that part of the state. The only 2 rules I would put in place are.

1) if it makes you happy shoot it.
2) try to shoot bucks that are over 4.5 years old.

If you have any questions about rule #2, see rule #1.

Life is too short to be bickering over deer. It cracks me up all the people "managing" a low fence deer herd and friendships lost of this crazy idea.

Its really interesting to watch hunters "manage" a herd for years, argue over what deer to kill, lose frienships, with the focus on improving the quality of the herd. Then be kicked off of a lease, with no notice from the landowner.

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Old 09-16-2020, 07:25 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TX_Hoghunter View Post
I read an article on a guy that had shot a ton of P&Y bucks. The place he was on had a rule I had never heard of or considered before the article. It was pretty simply. If your first buck would net P&Y then you could shoot a second buck. Seems like an odd rule but if you think about it I bet it would work well. Mistakes are punished by only getting one buck. Quality decisions are rewards by getting a second one. The tape measure makes the decisions so it is pretty black and white. No grey areas to get yourself in trouble with.

-john

Thatís actually a really good idea


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Old 09-16-2020, 07:29 AM   #37
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Imo, each hunter shouldn't be told theyíre allowed to shoot a cull each year. Thatís what leads to shooting half-decent 4 year old 8s. Cull bucks should be obvious, funky, older deer that everyone agrees should go. Then whoever sees it should be able to kill it. On most leases, there arenít as many true cull bucks as there are mature ďtrophies.Ē
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:29 AM   #38
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Every time this comes up I thank the lord I dont need a lease

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Old 09-16-2020, 07:34 AM   #39
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My lease this year is in the same area so I can give some input based on seeing the quality and quantity of deer.

1) survey the ranch before you make the rules. The deer density is high as you know, but I’m not seeing many does on my place. If every one of our guys kills 2 does we might have issues later on.

2) set an age requirement. I have some 4 year olds that will scare 140” and none of them are 8s. None of them need to be shot yet either. That country has strong potential for 150”+ bucks but they need time.

3) don’t make a set point requirement. Example: if you say a 10 is a trophy, you’ll likely get at least 1 guy each year that will shoot a young 10 just to say he “killed a trophy buck”.
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:35 AM   #40
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Trophy 6.5+
Cull/management at least 4.5+

First off it’s all about mouths especially out here. Most every place in the area has too many deer to hit potential. That is what the cull/management bucks are really about with the does.

A biologist and a good survey would be the best way to get kicked off
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:39 AM   #41
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After 6 years of mostly (some slip up) shooting 5.5+ year old bucks we are having trouble finding anything to consider a "cull". We will take some at 4.5 as "culls" that you can assume won't be anything decent. Anything that hits 5.5 and isn't an 8 goes as a "cull". Anything that hits 5.5 and is a smaller frame 8 goes as a management buck. Then again we have bucks that were on the cull/management list that make it through and end up being wall hangers the next year. Really drives it home to us just to let them get old.
I don't believe you can do much to control the genetics. Too many variables. Let the big framed deer go as long as you can. It really helps having a landowner that understands what you're trying to do. A lot that I've dealt with would look at some of the bucks we shoot as trophies that we're calling management. Problem is that no one would ever shoot them as trophies with the caliber of our upper end deer. Those management bucks would end up dying of old age and potentially be the dominant buck in that area for years. Keeping the higher end 3 and 4 year olds out.
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:48 AM   #42
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I would say 5.5 minimum on "trophy" bucks. I would say the management buck would at least need to be 4.5 and score less than "X"(whatever you determine). No way I would let a 4.5 six or seven point keep eating my feed unless you are trying to grow a big six or seven point. I'd take him out not because of breeding but because he is eating feed and possibly pushing my younger desirable bucks (potential trophies in future years) off the property. There are always exceptions where a management buck would blow up years later but that isn't that common. Also, this is my strategy in East Texas so the trophy ages would be higher in South Texas where the bucks seem to peak at 7-9 years old.
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:55 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saintsfan View Post
Good luck "culling" especially in that part of the state. The only 2 rules I would put in place are.

1) if it makes you happy shoot it.
2) try to shoot bucks that are over 4.5 years old.

If you have any questions about rule #2, see rule #1.

Life is too short to be bickering over deer. It cracks me up all the people "managing" a low fence deer herd and friendships lost of this crazy idea.

Its really interesting to watch hunters "manage" a herd for years, argue over what deer to kill, lose frienships, with the focus on improving the quality of the herd. Then be kicked off of a lease, with no notice from the landowner.
This is how we roll!
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:03 AM   #44
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If you need to take out mouths shoot does . Not young bucks . Another thing is what kind of lease you want to run . A have fun go kill what ever you feel like are a trophy lease ? There is a difference as you know . But if I was trying to run a trophy lease the 5.5 rule is what I would start out with . And usually the 130Ē is a pretty good number to start with in Eldorado area . In all reality on a low fence lease your not going to kill more then two are three bucks over 130 . And a lot of hunters want bigger then 130 so if they happen to see a 130Ē 5.5 they may pass him to live another year and at 6.5 he may be bigger. Same goes for one under 130 some folks may pass them as well . You really never know what a buck is going to turn out to be . Honestly I would love to let bucks get to at least 6.5 r even 7.5 . But I know that is hard to do in a low fence environment with other hunters on other properties around you . Thatís why I would do the 5.5 rule and 130 it just simples things up for everyone on the lease . And usually keeps good young bucks alive until they do reach that 5.5 mark .


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Old 09-16-2020, 08:05 AM   #45
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“Cull buck” is too subjective unless everyone has seen the photos and agrees he needs to go.
In my experience, there aren’t that many true culls. Just a lot of bucks that will never be huge. Most will be average for the area. Makes sense. Besides, any mature buck is a trophy for someone.

On the lease I manage, the landowner and I worked out a kill fee for bucks. One trophy per season per gun. It is equal to the rather low lease fee. It keeps everyone off the trigger unless it is a trophy. After years of that, we have progressed to the point we have landowner approved culls. It keeps everyone from shooting a late season buck because they had already paid for it and “needed some sausage”.
To remove numbers, we shoot does. I think we have exceptional bucks and age classes for our area. I rattle in a lot of bucks which tells me something. We pass lots of middle age bucks hoping for a stud. It takes a lot of restraint, but the fee helps.
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:10 AM   #46
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Every time this comes up I thank the lord I dont need a lease

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But one day

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Old 09-16-2020, 08:12 AM   #47
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But one day

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By then I'll slide ride over into a spot on your place

Even if it do happen 100 acres is enough for me

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Old 09-16-2020, 08:33 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Mexico View Post
Unless you're high fence, culling is pissing in the wind. Let 'em all get a little age and shoot what you like. You'll be surprised what " inferior " deer can do with age and proper nutrition..
Word
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:44 AM   #49
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Jeff, I don't have to tell you this, but the FIRST thing you should do is figure out yourself what YOU want as a philosophy and lease atmosphere since you're the "lease boss" and then find people who will fit that bill. This thread is the perfect example of why that should be the first thing you do. Just look at the posts from an attitude standpoint. Some say no rules, let me shoot what makes me happy... There are NO trophy ranches anywhere that run with that attitude. It's not bad or wrong, but not conducive to growing big deer (IF that's what you are trying to do). Others say don't shoot anything until it's 5.5 years old... Others have mentioned spikes ... It goes on and on... As you know, I've run leases for over 40 years, and learned a looooong time ago, if you are trying to fill a lease with members just to get the money together, you're asking for trouble. You need like-minded folks to form a successful group, no matter what your lease philosophy will be. But since it's YOUR lease, that philosophy should be set by you.



I happen to be part of a huge hunting operation now that has a fully funded management program of a large tract of land (hundreds of thousands of acres in total). The pasture I have is in the middle of over 70,000 acres under the same management program, It is NOT high fenced, but it is big enough and managed well enough that indeed we can have an effect on the quality of the deer we grow on the property. It takes time, but it works. If culling/managing for big deer did not work on low fenced places, there would be nothing special about hunting South Texas. It's ludicrous to believe otherwise... I'll not get into arguments or debates about it as it's worse than politics or religion arguments. I manage our lease, but I'm only part of a rather large group of like-minded lease managers that operates under the guidelines of a very well versed and paid wildlife biologist that is funded by a serious ranching/hunting operation...


One of the early posts gave you a pretty good suggestion as to how to start and that is take a serious survey and develop a bell curve of the herd and see what it looks like now. If you want to bend that curve, then set your guidelines to attach that portion of the curve... I can say with certainty that bending the Bell curve toward increasing the number of upper age bracket bucks is the strongest action you can take to grow big deer. What a "big" deer is is dependent on where you are located and the condition of the herd when you start... The other very important consideration is to look at total population and move as quickly as you can to bring the population in line with the property's ability to support the herd from a nutrition point of view... That would include taking out as many excess animals as you can and if possible a structured supplemental feeding program... Depending on the size and location of the property and the other properties around it, getting started on the TPWD MLDP may be worth considering... This is a very good tool that you can use to control population... What it boils down to is you can lower your hunter density without adversely effecting your harvest potential... With the MLD tags, if you wanted to you, yourself could go out and shoot all the does you needed to take off the property... Hunting off your TPWD hunting license tags, that is not likely to work...


If you want to talk about it, give me a call. You have my numbers...
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Old 09-16-2020, 08:52 AM   #50
AntlerCollector
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Where we hunt the deer population is high. Those who say shoot the does to reduce deer numbers. Is there any concern about too many bucks? We already have lots of bucks. IMO they already outnumber the does. I’m currently on a lease that is right next to the place I’m considering. I’ve been on it 4 years now, and see lots of deer every hunt. I’ve killed bucks from 136”-154” in those 4 years. That’s with most current members feeding nothing but corn. I’m wanting to grow trophy bucks, and have fun doing it.
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